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Post by swurveman on Mar 27, 2015 8:59:49 GMT -6
It's 18-10 traditional mixers and summing mixers vs itb. Interesting that nobody has stated they use a Dangerous summing mixer, even though they are the pioneers, though it may be that someone who uses one has chosen not to comment.
I (finally) hooked up two of my Vintech x73i preamps as a stereo insert in Cubase and Pro Tools. Yowza! I had no idea of the liveliness (best term I could think of) routing through preamps could bring to my mix. I'm still wondering if I need a summing mixer in this 32 bit float world, but the results speak for themselves as to what people think about summing. I have trouble really clearly hearing reverb and I'm wondering if the claims of spatial separation and dimension from outboard summing would improve this.
Anyway, thanks guys for participating!
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Post by drbill on Mar 27, 2015 9:51:12 GMT -6
For anyone looking for a console, but not finding a good one at a cheap price - I think I know of a D&R OrionX that's coming up for sale. No, not mine. :-) It's in So Cal currently and priced to move. PM me if you're looking and interested.... bp
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Post by matt on Mar 27, 2015 10:38:13 GMT -6
Just finished setting up an SSL Sigma; retired my Venice F32. Right now my signal path is:
Apogee DA > direct to the Sigma (12 stereo stems) or through outboard (Slate Dragon x2, Neve 543, plus more to come) > Sigma summing > Smart C1LA > A-Designs AM-PEQ > Sonic Farm Creamliner > Neve 542 > Burl AD
Haven't mixed through the Sigma yet, but from just listening to a playback of a mix-in-progress, it seems to me that the Sigma brings better separation and definition to the mix. Reviewing my 2 bus and monitoring AD/DA as well, thinking about a more transparent option like the Hilo or Pure2. Or Svart's Secret Project.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 27, 2015 12:22:43 GMT -6
It's 18-10 traditional mixers and summing mixers vs itb. Interesting that nobody has stated they use a Dangerous summing mixer, even though they are the pioneers, though it may be that someone who uses one has chosen not to comment. I (finally) hooked up two of my Vintech x73i preamps as a stereo insert in Cubase and Pro Tools. Yowza! I had no idea of the liveliness (best term I could think of) routing through preamps could bring to my mix. I'm still wondering if I need a summing mixer in this 32 bit float world, but the results speak for themselves as to what people think about summing. I have trouble really clearly hearing reverb and I'm wondering if the claims of spatial separation and dimension from outboard summing would improve this. Anyway, thanks guys for participating! That is how it started with me too. I first mixed into my 1073. In the end I had the board and two racks loaded with outboard. |
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Post by ggomez on Mar 27, 2015 12:48:47 GMT -6
Overstayer 32x2x2 transformer and transformer less outs with harmonic generators, 4 busses
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 27, 2015 18:59:05 GMT -6
MATT
In concept I think the Sigma or really Sigmas is my dream rig, if SSL would develop some really good software that let me pan, set up busses and auxes I would love a great integrated control surface !
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Post by keymod on Mar 27, 2015 19:36:28 GMT -6
I think a Sigma with a Nucleous would be quite awesome. I will probably go for 2 x Summation for use with my APB.I already have 32 channels of JL Cooper moving faders.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Mar 28, 2015 4:53:11 GMT -6
I used to use a Neve 8816, but got a Tore Seem Seesam II 24 channel mixer last year. The setup is as follows: Cubase 8 Pro -> Lynx Aurora 16 (x3) -> Seesam II -> API 2500 -> Dramastic Audio Obsidian -> recording back into Lynx. Since I got a good deal on a 3rd. Aurora, I've been able to have all my outboard gear connected to it and can run them all as plugins in Cubase. (Tore Seem Audio made mixers and other pieces audio gear for the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish Broadcast Companies. All top notch parts, which means you get extremely well made and great sounding gear for silly, silly money.) Thanks allbuttonmod. To clarify, you're using your hardware inserts in Cubase and then sending stems to the Tore for the channel tranformers etc and summing. I presume you're not uing the mixer EQ. If I may ask: I am familiar with the API 2500 which to me is a punchy and midrangy sounding compressor. Why do you add the Obsidion? What does it do to compliment the 2500? Yes, I guess. My workflow is as follows: I sum the channels in to a set of groups in Cubase. OH, Toms, Amb, Kick, Snare, Bass, Guitars, Vocals, etc. THEN, I send and sum those to an output template I made for the 24 channels on the Seem console. Which means I kinda do two sets of group channels, but I've found this to be the easiest way to work. Once it gets to the console, it varies from project to project, whether I use the hardware eq and gain on each channel, depending on the likelihood of recalls. I started using both the Obsidian and the 2500 together by accident. I used to use only the Obsidian on the mix bus. It glues the mix together like a champ. Then, on a project I wasn't happy with how the mixes sounded. Too bland. That's when I tested the 2500. And without thinking, I placed it in the chain without removing the Obsidian. The Obsidian settings were set to slow attack and release, and the 2500 was set fairly quick. Suddenly the mix came alive! It was pumping like crazy, for sure, but I really liked what I heard. So, I dialed the input down to the VUs barely moved, and then compensated on the Obsidian to where it peaks at around 2-3 db. So, I guess this was a boring, long winded way of saying I get both glue AND punch by combining the two  |
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Post by jimwilliams on Mar 28, 2015 9:38:03 GMT -6
I use one of those Soundcraft Delta consoles that guy JW hot-rodded. It's pretty good.
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Post by matt on Mar 28, 2015 10:48:55 GMT -6
MATT In concept I think the Sigma or really Sigmas is my dream rig, if SSL would develop some really good software that let me pan, set up busses and auxes I would love a great integrated control surface ! Agreed, a well-integrated piece of console software would be cool. As of now I am using the HUI protocol to instantiate 16 channels of "audio" in PT, giving basic control. I have gain rides only (so far) on two Euphonix Mix surfaces (pan/mute doesn't seem to work), but I have session automation available. Still way cool, as it is. |
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Post by deehope on Mar 29, 2015 13:21:51 GMT -6
Dreaming of a sigma or a Mixmaster 20.
What's everyone's take on otb vs itb panning?
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 29, 2015 14:00:22 GMT -6
Dreaming of a sigma or a Mixmaster 20. What's everyone's take on otb vs itb panning? I think it depends on the pan law settings and the cross talk spec of the analog out section ITB, and certainly the crosstalk spec on a console, the modded SC delta has a crosstalk spec of 90-92db @10khz!(not the cheater 1khz) its the best CT spec i've ever seen anywhere in that regard, it makes your mixes Wiiiiiide! |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 29, 2015 15:09:43 GMT -6
Dreaming of a sigma or a Mixmaster 20. What's everyone's take on otb vs itb panning? To these ears panning in the box is summing ! And that's what the guys at every DAW company told me years ago ! |
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Post by drbill on Mar 29, 2015 19:36:11 GMT -6
Am I the only one who hears things TOO wide and must continually pull them in? I don't get the continual push for wider mixes.....
Maybe my crosstalk is too good.... LOL
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 29, 2015 19:45:42 GMT -6
Am I the only one who hears things TOO wide and must continually pull them in? I don't get the continual push for wider mixes..... Maybe my crosstalk is too good.... LOL Interesting Bill, are you a LCR guy? I love wide! The only way something can sound too wide to me is if their is nothing filling up the middle(and it happens), Wide leaves a lot of space to fatten the heck out of the middle though. |
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Post by jeromemason on Mar 29, 2015 20:24:36 GMT -6
Well I did sum 8 channels via BLA PM8 but I was able to get another one to I'll sum 16. Haven't even begun to set my rig up yet but I'm curious if it was worth the investment. I like how the box has the transformers on the inputs and on a set of outputs, that along with my VP28's really does feel more realistic, to me that is, might not to anyone else I have no idea. I'd love to do a console, but that takes some serious money and I just can't justify that with Blackbird 2 miles down the road.
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Post by drbill on Mar 29, 2015 21:18:01 GMT -6
Am I the only one who hears things TOO wide and must continually pull them in? I don't get the continual push for wider mixes..... Maybe my crosstalk is too good.... LOL Interesting Bill, are you a LCR guy? I love wide! The only way something can sound too wide to me is if their is nothing filling up the middle(and it happens), Wide leaves a lot of space to fatten the heck out of the middle though. Nope. I don't subscribe to that method of panning. Just doesn't make sense to me. But honestly, I'm pulling stuff IN so much of the time, and I'm doing it in very small amounts to get it where I want it. Those psychoacoustic "phase voodoo wideners" are just snake oil afaic. They have their place, but it's not with me. Beyond the phase voodoo stuff, I just don't get the "it's wider, woohoo" thing. IMO hard L is hard L and hard R is hard R. End of story. If I was working on crappy consoles, maybe I'd have a problem, but I've been on D&R's for close to 20 years and any outside studio I work at has a Neve, SSL or API, so  ? Maybe I'm just freakishly opposed to "wide". I dunno. I can MAKE stuff wide....but very often it's not musical IMO. I got a piano recording this weekend to mix where the "engineer" (musician) who tracked it had a "secret proprietary" technique (LOL, like he knows something no one else does??) to make the piano "wider". I took one listen, rolled back and laughed, and told the artist I was going to collapse the "wide" stereo image to something more complimentary to the music. It sounded artificially fake to me. So..... Color me narrow. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 29, 2015 21:49:41 GMT -6
Yeah, LCR in the strict sense insisted by some people is silly IMO, i do about 95% of things that way, but i will ultimately just do what sounds good to me.
As far as Crosstalk, it doesn't just concern maximum width, crosstalk is a measure of how much one channel shows up on another, so crosstalk L to R is a representation of separation and clarity in a mix as well as achievable width. D&R, neve, api do NOT have great crosstalk specs, so even on those great consoles, when you pull elements in from the edges, L/R and center won't be as separate or clear as a console with a great crosstalk spec, and therefore won't allow as much clarity and center image beef. This all falls under the analogy of the clean bright white canvas to start painting on, it will make all your colors more dramatic and contrast much greater than painting on a grey, dirty canvas. If your R to L is wider, the elements in phantom center will image better, and can be much larger and more full frequency'd IME.
That said, i love API's more than anything, but in my use of them over the years i never really knew what i was missing in that regard till i got the delta with it's awesome crosstalk spec, it's incredibly wide, and it really opens up a lot of space, which is killer imo
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Post by deehope on Mar 29, 2015 22:44:38 GMT -6
I'm confused. Doesn't itb have no crosstalk? Which would mean it should have the widest sounding mixes? That hasn't been my experience and is one of the reasons I want to analog sum. Yeah, LCR in the strict sense insisted by some people is silly IMO, i do about 95% of things that way, but i will ultimately just do what sounds good to me. As far as Crosstalk, it doesn't just concern maximum width, crosstalk is a measure of how much one channel shows up on another, so crosstalk L to R is a representation of separation and clarity in a mix as well as achievable width. D&R, neve, api do NOT have great crosstalk specs, so even on those great consoles, when you pull elements in from the edges, L/R and center won't be as separate or clear as a console with a great crosstalk spec, and therefore won't allow as much clarity and center image beef. This all falls under the analogy of the clean bright white canvas to start painting on, it will make all your colors more dramatic and contrast much greater than painting on a grey, dirty canvas. If your R to L is wider, the elements in phantom center will image better, and can be much larger and more full frequency'd IME. That said, i love API's more than anything, but in my use of them over the years i never really knew what i was missing in that regard till i got the delta with it's awesome crosstalk spec, it's incredibly wide, and it really opens up a lot of space, which is killer imo |
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 29, 2015 22:54:07 GMT -6
I'm confused. Doesn't itb have no crosstalk? Which would mean it should have the widest sounding mixes? That hasn't been my experience and is one of the reasons I want to analog sum. Yeah, LCR in the strict sense insisted by some people is silly IMO, i do about 95% of things that way, but i will ultimately just do what sounds good to me. As far as Crosstalk, it doesn't just concern maximum width, crosstalk is a measure of how much one channel shows up on another, so crosstalk L to R is a representation of separation and clarity in a mix as well as achievable width. D&R, neve, api do NOT have great crosstalk specs, so even on those great consoles, when you pull elements in from the edges, L/R and center won't be as separate or clear as a console with a great crosstalk spec, and therefore won't allow as much clarity and center image beef. This all falls under the analogy of the clean bright white canvas to start painting on, it will make all your colors more dramatic and contrast much greater than painting on a grey, dirty canvas. If your R to L is wider, the elements in phantom center will image better, and can be much larger and more full frequency'd IME. That said, i love API's more than anything, but in my use of them over the years i never really knew what i was missing in that regard till i got the delta with it's awesome crosstalk spec, it's incredibly wide, and it really opens up a lot of space, which is killer imo ITB comes out analog at some point and is indeed subject to the crosstalk of the analog section. But for what ever reason, even with good crosstalk specs, summing itb suffers in focus, width and depth to my ears as compared to voltage summing. |
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Post by drbill on Mar 30, 2015 1:42:45 GMT -6
I know in your mind a williams sound craft is the only console worth working on.....but....D&R & API work fine for me Tony. If you get a chance, you might want to talk to Brad about D&R's though.....he used to own a jw sound craft. Now has a D&R.....
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Post by jimwilliams on Mar 30, 2015 10:09:36 GMT -6
Most pop/rock mixes are not very stereo these days. It's not like the 1960's when stuff would be hard panned and heard only on one channel. I loved those records, you can hear the leakage across the mix with a lot of it being reverb splash. I loved Beatles records with vocals on one side. I could hear only the guitars, or only the vocals, very intimate sounds. Wild panning on Hendrix records was great. Mixing used to be exciting, now it's ehhh...
I hear a lot of lemming mixing these days, snare and kick down the middle, vocals down the middle, bass down the middle (that was done in ye olde tymes for record cutting) guitars slightly panned, if at all. Seems if you lost one channel you wouldn't miss anything.
Is this a way to work around the general hearing losses so many now suffer from? My audiologist says only very small children show no hearing losses. 18 year olds are now testing with 60 year old hearing. Loose one ear, still hear the mix?
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Post by drbill on Mar 30, 2015 10:40:02 GMT -6
With the hard L / C / R trend, there are PLENTY of wide mixed albums these days Jim. But the bulk of them sound uncomfortable to me Call me a lemming - I WANT the kick and snare down the middle. Sounds like you are talking about creative decisions though....not gear related.
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 30, 2015 11:08:25 GMT -6
I know in your mind a williams sound craft is the only console worth working on.....but....D&R & API work fine for me Tony. If you get a chance, you might want to talk to Brad about D&R's though.....he used to own a jw sound craft. Now has a D&R..... Oh, I forgot i was talking to ooohhhh noooo mr. Bill! I find it comical that you can't find the ounce of humility it takes to show that maybe you don't know everything lol Instead you go straight to your default breaking of the one and only rule here... "don't be an asshole!" 1st, contrary to your self appointed, infallible status as "king shit know it all", you clearly don't know fuckall about what i'm, or anyone else is thinking, you simply don't have the capacity with that ginormous ego of yours taking up your entire headspace 8) 2nd, apparently you don't know jack about what Brad thinks either? Brad(who's the coolest cat!) told me that his JW soundcraft smoked the D&R, and that the only reason he picked the DR up was because it had the larger channel count he needed... paraphrase= "i wish i had a large format JW soundcraft instead", these were his words Mr Bill... oooooohhhhhh nnnnnooooooooo! lol edit; cleaned up the language... a bit 8) |
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Post by drbill on Mar 30, 2015 12:23:43 GMT -6
I know in your mind a williams sound craft is the only console worth working on.....but....D&R & API work fine for me Tony. If you get a chance, you might want to talk to Brad about D&R's though.....he used to own a jw sound craft. Now has a D&R..... Oh, I forgot i was talking to ooohhhh noooo mr. Bill! I find it comical that you can't find the ounce of humility it takes to show that maybe you don't know everything lol Instead you go straight to your default breaking of the one and only rule here... "don't be an asshole!" 1st, contrary to your self appointed, infallible status as "king shit know it all", you clearly don't know fuckall about what i'm, or anyone else is thinking, you simply don't have the capacity with that ginormous ego of yours taking up your entire headspace 8) 2nd, apparently you don't know jack about what Brad thinks either? Brad(who's the coolest cat!) told me that his JW soundcraft smoked the D&R, and that the only reason he picked the DR up was because it had the larger channel count he needed... paraphrase= "i wish i had a large format JW soundcraft instead", these were his words Mr Bill... oooooohhhhhh nnnnnooooooooo! lol edit; cleaned up the language... a bit 8) You're right. I was being such an asshole.... |
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? Maybe I'm just freakishly opposed to "wide". I dunno. I can MAKE stuff wide....but very often it's not musical IMO.