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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 9, 2015 11:25:22 GMT -6
Motu has really stepped up, you guys have me feeling better about my decision to go with RM lol, sounds weird, but in the back of my head i know if it falls flat on it's face, i'm not screwed, i can always jump on these for a great price, and walk away happy. I really like what i'm seeing on all fronts with your co. Mr Miller, some trusted pals of mine are totally stoked with their rigs, the latest being Jerome 8)
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Post by masteroftracks on Apr 9, 2015 12:44:19 GMT -6
Got mine yesterday can't wait to get it in the studio!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 6:56:28 GMT -6
OK, i come back to some further findings and preliminary experience with the 24Ao (Motu's 24 analog outs AVB box). First, we discovered an obstacle on the metal hardware side of things. The rightmost standoff of the DB-25 connectors has the wrong measures. No grip from the plug, the inner thread of the standoff is too wide, wrong threading! I have absolutely no clue how something like this can happen, but i assume, one of the hardware suppliers had a standoff jumping in the wrong box. This is odd, because the DB-25 plug with breakout cabling has quite some mechanical stress and the connection is not as stable as it should with only one tightened bolt. The others are all correct, though. This first, mrmiller maybe can lead this to the QC of Motu, to check if this is a only rare issue.... Unfortunately, these standoffs have a different threading for going into the connectors than computer motherboard standoffs (smaller and longer), so we couldn't find and adequate ad hoc replacement... Don't know, where to get these standoffs fast locally, are these common for other tasks, in the computer world? Otherwise the box is well made and stable metal works... Last weekend i finally had some more time to test and configure stuff on the digital side of the 24Ao. This is about the USB drivers and external converter connectivity. After we installed the Windows drivers (on a Win8.1 machine), first everything worked as it should. Unfortunately we had to re-cable things after some re-placement of studio furniture, and then a kind of oddyssee began. The driver stopped working no matter, what we did. Including several re-installs of the driver, full deinstallations and re-installs, even after rubbing out references to the driver in the registry editor (quite some references are left after driver uninstall). No matter, what we did, the driver did not work anymore. After hours of testing, we sat the machine back to a backup point and found, that even then, the driver did NOT work. That led to the last possibility that proved true: The AVB-USB driver somehow works ONLY with the exact USB port that was used at the first installation (for both, networking and audio)! Which is kind of odd, because, first, i have no clue, where the used port information is stored, and an uninstall and a new install of the driver is not resetting this, and second, because there is no option to switch ports right now, and this is completely different to any USB audio drivers i have ever worked with in Windows. Keep in mind, that USB audio devices should normally be hot plug devices that should load the appropriate driver instantly (well, this works) but you expect this behaviour *no matter which USB port* you use. Not so with this one. Even if this is done to avoid more than one instance of the driver to load, this is a very odd way to do this. I really would like to hear more detail about this and how to change the port without a complete windows reinstall! mrmiller , maybe you could chime in and shed a little light onto this. Well, this took us quite hours to figure out, even if this may be a less than a minor or no obstacle for some. If you don't know this behaviour, it can drive you near crazy in case and it wasn't mentioned in the docs.... Another question from my side: Is there any Linux driver for USB audio for the Motu or is there any change of Motu policies regarding help in the development of linux drivers for Motu devices? We checked the presence of the Motu under Mageia, it is recognized and Linux tries to load a usb-audio driver, but this onviously does not work, because the Motu USB connectivity channels AVB network protocol data and then is supposed to unpack the audio streams out of this... I ask because it would be great to have the Motu AVBs under stable linux for audio. The OSX drivers should not be far from linux drivers as OSX has a unix-ish kernel... I googled around this topic to find, that developers of the linux community offered to write or support linux alsa drivers for Motu devices, but there seemed no interest from Motu's side yet. This said, RME devices are pretty well supported due to their cooperation, and as a direct competitor who IMO just beat them this time with this AVB series, i guess Motu would really profit in supporting the growing linux audio market as well ... The less than 32 channel problem in 96khz USB i wrote about was a simple config error of mine. After selecting everything correct in the webUI setup, everything worked as expected. Also, the optical ports worked *instantly* how they should! We plugged SPDIF out on port A into the Superbeast DAC, two 4-channel 96khz ADAT SMUX DACs and a Mytek 8x96 ADC ADAT into ports B and C and voila, with proper config and routing in the webUI app, everything locked perfectly, also with the mytek beeing the master clock. I just wonder, if clocking would be better with additional Wordclock from the ADC to the Motu....? Doubt so...but well... So, after a few hours of work, we are ready to go into the console next time.... In the end, i still believe the AVB series is a very mature, flexible and for sure very good sounding innovation. Can't wait to finally mix with it and be OTB/hybrid again. Minor obstacles i had should *not* keep you away from trying these. Awesome devices, and if you just follow install procedure you can be good to go in maybe 20 minutes....and they sound great. Best regards, Martin
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Post by dandeurloo on Apr 14, 2015 7:05:33 GMT -6
IMO, The real strength of the units is when used with Thunderbolt. It is to bad you can't use that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 7:25:42 GMT -6
THIS is a completely new topic that is well worth thinking about. Right now there seems no way to use Thunderbolt under Win or Lin. I would be very glad to actually utilize it under Windows OR Linux, but there seems nothing right now to accomplish this ...it's a waste. Would Hackintosh really be the only way (if any) to use it?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 7:36:10 GMT -6
Just had to re-assure the motherboard we use has Thunderbolt. Yes, it has a thunderbolt header. With no use whatsoever right now. It's an ASUS TUF board....
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Post by jeromemason on Apr 14, 2015 9:15:53 GMT -6
Hope you can get a workaround for that brother, odd that your comp has the connection and windows doesn't support TB??? I haven't had windows in years, but I thought they at least kept up with the protocols of Apple, and Apple of Windows.
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Post by keymod on Apr 14, 2015 9:58:04 GMT -6
My ADK windows machine has two Thunderbolt ports. ADK say Apollo will work, though unsupported.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 12:23:50 GMT -6
Yes, the UAD stuff is reported to work with thunderbolt under Windows. Although unsupported. It would be great if Motu could manage to jump on the same train for Windows platform. The Apollo is another competitive product with somehow similar feature set but with IMO quite inferior inter-device architecture. But also audio interface and DSP functionality. Would require a driver. Thunderbolt has undergone quite some history in PC platform now and there are more of the higher priced boards supporting thunderbolt optionally with a card expansion up to thunderbolt 2. Asus was the first, if i am right...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 12:32:59 GMT -6
Actually, there are Windows drivers for the Thunderboard controllers. But almost certainly, there are proprietary audio drivers needed to expose the transported AVB network multichannel audio to the system (WDM/ASIO...)...
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Post by keymod on Apr 14, 2015 14:24:16 GMT -6
Based on what I am reading about these new MOTU devices, I would prefer to utilize MOTU via TBOLT with my ADK machine, and keep my four UAD PCIe cards.
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Post by formatcyes on Apr 14, 2015 15:07:24 GMT -6
The lack of uptake of thunderbolt in computer land means unfortunately it is a dead tech. USB 3.1 is the future it will match thunderbolt speed's the latest macbook does not have a thunderbot port. In the mean time buy a mac mini.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 18:16:28 GMT -6
Uhm, yes, i forgot. Apple is the one that dictates which interfaces are dead.
Oh, wait...my M-Audio Lightbridge is still working on my PC via a 15 Euro Firewire PCIe card on Win8.1. Oh, wait, PCIe was also called dead when Thunderbolt came. Oh, wait again, didn't Apple switch to Intel? Who dictates our dead or future interfaces...? Man, it stays complicated.... ;-) Sorry...i keeeed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 18:23:36 GMT -6
Actually, i think i would even prefer a USB3 driver (not 3.1) on Windows for a few more channels. Cheaper cable and no extra card needed on our mainboard.
Not sure if i am kidding again. Our main DAW has now USB2, USB3, Firewire and Tbolt optional with a header card. Seems legit. (Really?) Interface wars are crazy...
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Post by formatcyes on Apr 15, 2015 2:16:40 GMT -6
usb 3.1 will have thunderbolt speeds way faster than anything we are going to need. Plus it will be supported on everything eventually..... the interface war will continue..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 3:07:31 GMT -6
usb 3.1 will have thunderbolt speeds way faster than anything we are going to need. Plus it will be supported on everything eventually..... the interface war will continue.. Our mainboard will even swallow this with an optional expansion card in a fast PCIe slot. What the hell...? OK, maybe back to the Motu AVB's and their available interfaces.... ;-)
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Post by porkyman on Apr 27, 2015 22:46:35 GMT -6
just got mine today. a/b-ing lady gaga bad romance and her vocal is much more up front through the Motu. also feel the whole mix is tilted a little bit to the low end. both sound great. after comparing the two (16a/RM barebeast) for the last couple hours im comfortable saying the RM has more high end detail. maybe a little high end bump somewhere, or maybe 16a is rolled off a little bit. IDK. the low end im not sure about. it seems clearer/cleaner on the RM. on this particular song i would swear it was high passed, but definitely more able to tell whats going on down there. the whole track on the other hand seems thinner to me as a whole. i would say either the motu extends lower than the the RM or its got a little bump down there somewhere.
listening to mostly pop records. the vocals really sit high on top of the mix through the 16a. sometimes they even pop out to the point of separation. something i really struggle with.
i really want to know what these engineers are hearing because through the RM i thought the synths were a little harsh sounding. kinda that digital static noise that makes you cringe. on the 16a i thought the vocals were a little loose (almost mortal) and the bass could be cleaned up a little. does anybody know what the frequency response is on these dac's? im really curious as to which is more accurate.
over all i would say strictly for listening purposes i would choose the Motu. i think it softens harsh high end a little bit/RM exaggerates it too much. for mixing IDK yet. i thought they would sound close enough i could sell the RM but it sounds different enough i think ill hang on to it.
P.S. im not using all this i/o. i really should have got the 1248 instead. if anyone did the opposite and wants to trade hit me up.
edit: theres a 1248 for 1377.00 at sweetwater right now. if you want a 16a at discount you can get it and trade for mine. )
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 28, 2015 1:31:24 GMT -6
@smallbutfine in case you or others are interested there is a Hankintosh build thread starting up at ua forum: about 5 really great guys debating parts: apollo users so tbolt slant but your comment about the header part might interest them.
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Post by carymiller on Apr 28, 2015 2:35:25 GMT -6
usb 3.1 will have thunderbolt speeds way faster than anything we are going to need. Plus it will be supported on everything eventually..... the interface war will continue.. I'm all for PC's in today's market. And 3.1 USB via PCIe already exists via newer gen motherboards. As does Thunderbolt and Firewire 800/400, and MADI. I'm saying who cares. I'm all for modernizing equipment when it's worth it....but really well designed ADA with modular tech is what I really want. The Lynx Hilo and Mytek 8x192 both impress me and have multiple card options in case your computer rig changes. What I'm really hoping for is that quality companies like this continue to support changes for interfacing in a modular capacity so you're not stuck replacing the most expensive converters you can afford over and over.
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Post by jeromemason on Apr 28, 2015 2:43:25 GMT -6
just got mine today. a/b-ing lady gaga bad romance and her vocal is much more up front through the Motu. also feel the whole mix is tilted a little bit to the low end. both sound great. after comparing the two (16a/RM barebeast) for the last couple hours im comfortable saying the RM has more high end detail. maybe a little high end bump somewhere, or maybe 16a is rolled off a little bit. IDK. the low end im not sure about. it seems clearer/cleaner on the RM. on this particular song i would swear it was high passed, but definitely more able to tell whats going on down there. the whole track on the other hand seems thinner to me as a whole. i would say either the motu extends lower than the the RM or its got a little bump down there somewhere. listening to mostly pop records. the vocals really sit high on top of the mix through the 16a. sometimes they even pop out to the point of separation. something i really struggle with. i really want to know what these engineers are hearing because through the RM i thought the synths were a little harsh sounding. kinda that digital static noise that makes you cringe. on the 16a i thought the vocals were a little loose (almost mortal) and the bass could be cleaned up a little. does anybody know what the frequency response is on these dac's? im really curious as to which is more accurate. over all i would say strictly for listening purposes i would choose the Motu. i think it softens harsh high end a little bit/RM exaggerates it too much. for mixing IDK yet. i thought they would sound close enough i could sell the RM but it sounds different enough i think ill hang on to it. I've been living with mine for a while now and I can tell you that what I mix in my room is what comes out in the car or wherever I listen. I'm not afraid or thinking of adjustments I'll have to make to the bass or highs come mix down, it's just mix it and print it. I love this box, best I've ever owned. I've got a Dangerous Source and I don't think the MOTU is hyped anywhere, I think it's pretty darn flat. I know this because I used to have an issue w/ my apollo on electric guitars, seemed like I was having to work extra hard to get the harsh out of them. Since I've gotten this box and this is no joke, my eq moves are very little. Where I would had cut 4db on the Apollo, I'm doing like 1-2db cuts, I'm not having to use compression near as much and I mean it's pretty darn drastic. That to me is a clear sign that my image was collapsing on the old system and I was having to do more with processing to allow things to be heard. I pulled out an old mix I did like 2 years ago, and I was having to take plugins off it like crazy because of how bad it sounded, left all the automation and did a global re-balance. I sent that mix to a friend of mine back in FL that I've always bounced mixes off of and he had heard the older one, asked me what the hell did I do to make the mix sound so freaking big, telling me how he could clearly hear the fiddle and banjo's right there with the heavy guitars (it was a pop country mix.... ) impressed the hell out of him and this guy is from England and a massive ball breaker when you ask him to give his opinion. This new design from MOTU is really a very good one guys. At the price they are selling these it gives we, the ones that can't afford 15k in conversion a very competitive edge with the ones that can. Just my .02
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Post by lolo on Apr 28, 2015 5:48:38 GMT -6
Jerome are you using the sources D/A for monitoring or the Moto?
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Post by EmRR on Apr 28, 2015 7:25:18 GMT -6
I was able to do some comparisons in Spectrafoo Complete, looking at 2408mkIII and 16A, measuring a simple output to input loop against the internal signal generator. OK, I tried to copy some code bits over, but this site doesn't like url link code. So....here's my measurements posted over at that site the kidz like. Lots of comparison against a MOTU 2408mkIII, try to see past that part. Plots are identified in the menu window. www.gearslutz.com/board/10346461-post344.html16A noise numbers as seen in those plots: 60Hz (AC line) -147dBFS 125Hz -154dBFS 250Hz -151dBFS 715Hz spike about -140dBFS (certainly looks higher on the plot, but zoom in confirms) 1kHz -147dBFS (note the manual states in or out THD+N of -110 dB, -1dBFS, unweighted, 1kHz) 4kHz -143dBFS 16kHz -137dBFS
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Post by jeromemason on Apr 28, 2015 11:15:55 GMT -6
I was able to do some comparisons in Spectrafoo Complete, looking at 2408mkIII and 16A, measuring a simple output to input loop against the internal signal generator. OK, I tried to copy some code bits over, but this site doesn't like url link code. So....here's my measurements posted over at that site the kidz like. Lots of comparison against a MOTU 2408mkIII, try to see past that part. Plots are identified in the menu window. www.gearslutz.com/board/10346461-post344.html16A noise numbers as seen in those plots: 60Hz (AC line) -147dBFS 125Hz -154dBFS 250Hz -151dBFS 715Hz spike about -140dBFS (certainly looks higher on the plot, but zoom in confirms) 1kHz -147dBFS (note the manual states in or out THD+N of -110 dB, -1dBFS, unweighted, 1kHz) 4kHz -143dBFS 16kHz -137dBFS Do you have something we could compare this too? Is there data out there like this on the Symphony and other high end converters. I'd like to think those numbers confirm what I'm hearing, but I'm not a specialist.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 28, 2015 11:17:57 GMT -6
No other comparative #s to offer.
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Post by jeromemason on Apr 28, 2015 11:19:57 GMT -6
Jerome are you using the sources D/A for monitoring or the Moto? Hey bro, I only use the source for monitoring the mixbus return and listening via core audio to whatever through my computer. I wish I would had went wit the one that you could put a remote on, but honestly the Source is just fine, I have it right below my summing rigs so I don't even need a freaking remote! ha.
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