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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2015 3:44:37 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 15, 2015 8:21:59 GMT -6
After reading the article and understanding that he's Talking about Music that is pretty much created by the mix engineer and not a Compentent band that can play together. Yeah he's absolutely right.
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Post by Ward on Jan 15, 2015 22:40:02 GMT -6
The most important part of any production is the performance, assuming you have good material going in!!
this "polish a turd" mixing approach is vomit inducing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2015 8:15:19 GMT -6
This is obviously heavily dependend on the style of music. There are complete genres of music, where there might be no recording involved at all. This must not even mean, that there is not musicality or artistic achievement involved. E.g. electronical music. A guy like Aphex Twin for example does produce music with own aesthetic and artistic quality, no matter if you like it or not, and it is like a direct composition to synthesizing to mixing approach which doesn't even need any classical type of recording at all. And of course there are all kind of productions inbetween. This is not bad in principle, it is just a matter of technical possibilities, what you want to achieve aesthetically, and last but not least a matter of budget, too. Of course, you can use digital editing, "liquid audio", to pep up mediocre artistic performances, and it is done alot, and at this point, the editing and mixing producer gains much more influence on the final product musically, than he ever could in the analogue era... It is just the way it is.
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Post by Ward on Jan 16, 2015 8:21:34 GMT -6
Here;s a fine example of a polished turd...
Worst I have heard in 2015, so far...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2015 8:33:21 GMT -6
Oh f*ck. Hahaha, yes, i know, what you mean... The mainstream pop genre...
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Post by yotonic on Jan 16, 2015 8:40:44 GMT -6
I think her other song "All About That Bass' is even worse.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 16, 2015 13:44:24 GMT -6
Make no mistake that it is still all about arranging, performing and recording. Polished turds aren't selling.
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Post by mobeach on Jan 16, 2015 16:30:31 GMT -6
Here;s a fine example of a polished turd... Worst I have heard in 2015, so far... Great example, it's unfortunate that technology is being used to push a pretty face instead of great music.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 16, 2015 17:15:19 GMT -6
I would say the players. I don't mean that as a cop out – but I do believe they make the biggest difference.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 16, 2015 18:53:40 GMT -6
I would say the players. I don't mean that as a cop out – but I do believe they make the biggest difference. But John on most of what passes for pop there really aren't any players, they don't make music anymore they manufacture it!
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Post by popmann on Jan 16, 2015 20:36:38 GMT -6
You know....he's right--but not in the way he's saying with all the sound replacement and making performers sound "like virtuosos"....
It's more like....it's the thing that if it's not done at a professional level, you are FUCKED. Which is why any studio I ever worked in, the senior engineer did a majority of the mixing. And this is in his "old days of tape".
You can track well enough that you can mostly push the faders up and the mix is mostly done....that is both the goal....AND....not making the mix less important. because those same well tracked tracks can VERY easily be pooched. And are--nearly every client who sends me scratch mixes, they're some kind of amateur unbalanced horrible. In fact, the ones who send a kind of "just push the faders up"--are the best ones, because the tracks are solid, and the "mix" is simply boring, not tight, and unrefined. But, the ones who try to mix--compressing this and that....EQing this and that....putting in delays and multiple reverbs....I promise they're horrible.
And they can't be saved with mastering....AND they were tracked properly.
If you want to take a rock band and neuter them into sounding more "pop"--you can't do it in mastering. You can't do it in tracking (much)--because they're a rock band....what makes it polished and more balanced to the vocal/drum/bass....pushing up the keys...the thngs that smooth that is the mix balance and EQ. Look at the last Nirvana record--teh singles were mixed by NOT steve Albini--and sound like a different record. He tracked the whole thing. Same person mastered the whole thing. But, the label had the singles remixed.
For that reason.
That said--his reasoning is not solid. But, he's a mastering engineer. What he's REALLY trying to communicate is that when he gets a bad mix, he can't magically make it sound great. Duh. The Audiophile thing--is because for 40 years, you mostly HAD professional mature experienced mix engineers and producers handling the mixing. So the only difference you will EVER heard in Aja are different masterings for different formats.
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Post by yotonic on Jan 16, 2015 21:44:28 GMT -6
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 16, 2015 22:29:07 GMT -6
Actually Dave was a really good recording engineer and mixer before he went into mastering.
Still it's really all down hill from out in front of the mike.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 17, 2015 9:31:10 GMT -6
The interesting thing to me is how, with all the channels and accesss to effects today's mixers/producers have, music sounds so generic compared to the 60's/70's when there was far less to work with. Songs like The Zombies "Time of the Season" and Led Zeppelin's "Battle of Evermore" etc. etc. are more interesting from a mixing and production standpoint than anything I hear today. There's also a soul to those songs that is missing imo.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 17, 2015 10:14:36 GMT -6
Production crutches like overdubbing and effects can only turn train-wrecks into mediocre competency.
When recording was expensive, everybody had to work really fast. People who were incapable of recording and mixing an entire album in a single day couldn't get a record deal before the mid '70s.
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Post by ericn on Jan 17, 2015 15:59:02 GMT -6
The interesting thing to me is how, with all the channels and accesss to effects today's mixers/producers have, music sounds so generic compared to the 60's/70's when there was far less to work with. Songs like The Zombies "Time of the Season" and Led Zeppelin's "Battle of Evermore" etc. etc. are more interesting from a mixing and production standpoint than anything I hear today. There's also a soul to those songs that is missing imo. Part of that is the ease and over use of recall. Today it's way to easy to manufacture music like GM made cars in the 80s and 90s, it's all the same on the inside!
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Post by mobeach on Jan 17, 2015 17:01:54 GMT -6
People who were incapable of recording and mixing an entire album in a single day couldn't get a record deal before the mid '70s. If the musicians are good enough there's really no reason you can't do it in a day.
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Post by wiz on Jan 17, 2015 17:16:00 GMT -6
Well, I am taking all this to heart.
My next project will be all live, no cans , 8 tracks. ( have a 8 channel modded console on the way)
I might have to overdub the vocals, because of bleed.
I am gonna try and walk the talk 8) (hey good name for the EP)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 17, 2015 17:49:50 GMT -6
I keep trying to get across to people that there is no reason to not record old school today and now we have incredible tools we can fix any distracting glitches with. The whole reason for '80s methods no longer really applies.
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Post by ericn on Jan 17, 2015 18:19:14 GMT -6
I keep trying to get across to people that there is no reason to not record old school today and now we have incredible tools we can fix any distracting glitches with. The whole reason for '80s methods no longer really applies. But that means everybody who can't stand each other would have to be in the same room at the same time!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 17, 2015 20:13:50 GMT -6
Or they only have to spend one day with each other. I can't imagine spending days on in in the studio...Second guessing everything. It would be exhausting.
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Post by joseph on Jan 19, 2015 10:54:35 GMT -6
I keep trying to get across to people that there is no reason to not record old school today and now we have incredible tools we can fix any distracting glitches with. The whole reason for '80s methods no longer really applies. I wish everyone would listen to this sage advice, because it really does pay off and I think it should apply to any type of music, electronic and pop included. Today in the era of plugins on every track and 50 overdubs, cohesion is lost and you end up with a flat performance with a lot of unnatural degradation and phase shift. I listened to Bob and bought a Beyer M88 to track vocals live in the room with my band. This mic is amazing for this application. At the very least, the live performance can inform the fancy condenser vocal overdub later on, yet sometimes you end up with the best energy and so you keep the live take. As a rule, the no headphones but live monitoring method results in a better performance. Likewise when you have a drummer playing along with headphones, it's very easy to lose all the power. No one wants a to hear weak sauce drumming. The other advantage is that when you have to control bleed, you learn a lot about which mics/patterns and which placements work and which don't in a given room, each with its own set of issues. Tuning the drums and choosing the right cymbals and height becomes even more critical. Communicating balance with the drummer and getting musicians to really listen to each other and play with controlled dynamics, you don't need much compression afterward, and musicianship can improve in little leaps under the pressure. It is a pain in the ass at first, but an instructive challenge. Many of you know all this already, but it was a revelation to me, so it bears repeating. If you want the captured performance to have life and not sound flat, listen to Bob.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 19, 2015 18:47:15 GMT -6
I'm still confused on the stuff popmann was talking about concerning just using a cheap mixer for true no latency headphone cues. Aren't I doing that already with the Apollo and Console?
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Post by wiz on Jan 19, 2015 18:58:11 GMT -6
I'm still confused on the stuff popmann was talking about concerning just using a cheap mixer for true no latency headphone cues. Aren't I doing that already with the Apollo and Console? anytime something has gone through AD and then a DA to get to you, as it does with Apollo Console.. you have a delay... latency... how much bothers you..? thats the big question. When you monitor off a mixer you have no delay. My RME UCX, has near zero latency (thats what the apollo has too.. the meat is in the word "near" ) and I am fine with it. cheers Wiz
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