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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 19, 2015 19:12:41 GMT -6
From the Apollo manual:
Console without UAD plug-ins – When Console is used without UAD plug-ins, monitor- ing Apollo’s inputs via Console does not add any latency. In this configuration, Apollo’s analog I/O round-trip latency is still 1.1 milliseconds at 96 kHz.
Console with Realtime UAD Processing – When Console is used for Realtime UAD Pro- cessing with UAD Powered Plug-Ins that are not upsampled, monitoring Apollo’s inputs via Console does not add any latency.
In this configuration, Apollo’s analog I/O round-trip latency is still 1.1 milliseconds at 96 kHz, even if up to four UAD (non-upsampled) plug-ins are serially “stacked” (chained) on a single Apollo analog and/or digital input.
Multiple Apollo inputs can have up to four UAD (non-upsampled) plug-ins each (up to the limit of available DSP resources); this configuration also does not add any latency.
Note: Upsampled UAD plug-ins add latency when used in Console or a DAW. See “Upsampled UAD Plug-Ins” below for details.
Does all this latency stuff really matter?
With Apollo, not really. Performance latency is not a factor because of Console’s low la- tency monitoring; and recording (track alignment) latency during recording, overdubbing, and mixing is automatically compensated by Console and the DAW.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 19, 2015 19:43:59 GMT -6
When overdubbing, it's so important to hear yourself and the the music in sync, even small latencies have always driven me nutz, especially with tight dry up tempo music(i think it's worse for a drummer?), i'd go as far as saying it's a deal breaker imo(or at the very least rips from you the fun and freedom of playing without the burden of dealing with that horseshit), if you're playing a laid back slow tempo piece, it's much more tolerable, but still lame imo. The idea of 0 latency is one of the things that drove me to console/OTB. There was also something glitchy in my old rig, every once in a while, i would have to align tracks by dragging them around because it laid them down out of sync, which was totally ridiculous, it ruined many a takes, and always left me frustrated, bewildered and disheartened to the point of just walking away shaking my head. It's the complete opposite of on whole musical communication with bandmates.
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Post by mulmany on Jan 19, 2015 20:10:54 GMT -6
Most DAW latency is better then using a Floor monitor when performing, or having your gtr rig on the backline of a stage. The difference is that we become use to these types of natural propagation delay, the speed of sound in air. The second you put on cans all the natural cues that your ear/brain use are gone and that is when it gets weird. Technically there is about 1.5-2 ms of delay between when your fingers touch a string and when you actually hear the sound, but that is how a guitar "sounds" or is (always has been) perceived by your ear/brain. I think everyone else in a band situation would be fine playing with the latency in a AD/DA system, unless you asked the individual playing the part. Does that make sense? You don't have practice with everyone's amps right next to their ears and the ears of everyone else!
So true delay of a recording system is always changing, because the distance from source to mic is not the same all the time. You can experience the same amount of delay that an AD/DA trip would cause in an all analog set up. Just place the mic 1-3ft farther away then the natural distance from the instrument to the players ears.
Not sure where I am going with this so I will stop at that.
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Post by popmann on Jan 19, 2015 21:02:27 GMT -6
I don't know how else I can explain it, John. All digital conversion causes latency. Period. Never will this change. It will lessen as you increase sample rate. This is why most interfaces will quote you latency figures based on 96khz....48khz will be double that....44.1 even longer.
I post things to help people-I've been at gonzo home engineering before it was hip or cheap. I thought for many years that if I couldn't "hear" latency, it wasn't an issue. It is. I thought for many years that MIDI timing was accurate at playing back what I play in. It is not. These are not technically related--they are simply two things that if I knew what I know now, I'd have save a TON of time over the course of my life.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 19, 2015 21:59:24 GMT -6
Those are the two elephants that have been in the 'lectronic musician room all along.
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Post by henge on Jan 19, 2015 22:12:16 GMT -6
Make no mistake that it is still all about arranging, performing and recording. Polished turds aren't selling. I find that arrangement makes the biggest difference. If the arrangements great everything gets easier. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 19, 2015 22:37:37 GMT -6
I don't know how else I can explain it, John. Well, I hope I didn't put you out too much... I was assuming there was zero latency with the Apollo when no plugs were used. I was wrong. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 22:47:52 GMT -6
So, as John wrote from the Apollo manual... their statements are, ehem, Edit not correct misleading in the way it is stating the console inputs "do not add latency".
1.1ms is not latency free. It is not "analog" if it is measured "at 96kHz".
And yes, an analog console IS latency free.
As has been stated here in previous discussion(s), it matters more or less, even if you are used to latency. Some people seem to get managed latencies up to 3-4 ms in a maybe half decent way, some keyboardists claim they can play with up to 10 ms latency, but the more rhythm-oriented you are, the more disturbing it gets. Drummers and bassmen seem to get more distracted easily (me too)...
You can not align digital latency as you can with distance acoustical delay, because you can not neurologically calculate delay based on an optically known distance, like that to a monitor, headphones make things worse.
Maybe it's easier to play or sing with eyes closed and using monitors and guessing a seemingly longer distance to the monitor, never tried that.
Analog monitoring with a desk avoids this definitely. And is easy.
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Post by popmann on Jan 20, 2015 10:23:14 GMT -6
I don't know how else I can explain it, John. Well, I hope I didn't put you out too much... I was assuming there was zero latency with the Apollo when no plugs were used. I was wrong. Not at all. I'm always happy to help. That's why I signed up. Grumpy days, I might seem put out. I'm not.  |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 20, 2015 11:48:21 GMT -6
Software developers have spread lots of mythology. Zero latency, "quantization" and "humanization" to blur MIDI jitter are three of the biggest lies.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 12:02:15 GMT -6
As someone who learned programming with 14 and did it once in a while for a living, it took me some time to get over this "zero latency" babble.
"What the heck are they talking about, quantum physics?" LOL.
Even better is the newer buzzword "true zero latency". Just call it analog.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 20, 2015 15:42:09 GMT -6
Binary digital = massive latency.
I used to help a friend record convention speeches in San Francisco. One of the more amazing ones was hearing Cray's director of technology tell an auditorium full of computer scientists in the late '90s that the future was probably analog super-computing! He said the only reason we still use binary digital is the massive quantity of "free" public domain code available thanks to government sponsored research. All of the technological limitations of analog computing were apparently solved by the 1970s.
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