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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 17, 2015 20:02:52 GMT -6
dude you got it bad; if its any consolation I built mine back in July screwed up and maybe i;ll get it in a couple more weeks  we can celebrate that telelovething 2gethr !! |
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Post by ben on Jan 25, 2015 19:02:46 GMT -6
tonycamphd, I made a studio flub the other day and thought of you. In a recent session, I recorded some acoustic guitar tracks and set up 4 mics, MK47 with BeesNeez M7, MK47 with Theirsch Blueline, MK67 and my BeesNeez C12. While listening back, I paid particular attention to the two MK47's. The mic originally labeled "BN47" sounded prettier and more "finished", even a little more detailed/clearer. While I do maintain that the BNM7 sounds better than many caps I've worked with, I couldn't fathom that it could sound better than the ST Blueline. I mean, after all, ST has been making the M7 for much of his life, and trained under Neumann! Well, low and behold, I had them labeled wrong. It was, in fact, the ST Blueline that had my ears dancing. You are right, that Blueline is the sh*t.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 25, 2015 19:39:59 GMT -6
it seems the thiersch blue pvc cap comes by its stellar reputation deservedly. I thought about the red but then thought why build max's mk-u47 and not put the blue in ?
Cat5 is dailing in my psu and I should have my Mike quite soon; very much looking forward to that !
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Post by ben on Jan 25, 2015 20:18:47 GMT -6
I can't speak to the Redline as I've never heard it in person, but that Blueline really has something special.
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Post by kidvybes on Jan 25, 2015 23:17:51 GMT -6
...coming soon...Cat 5 and I will be testing an MK-47 with Eric Heiserman's hybrid HK47 capsule...
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 26, 2015 10:48:20 GMT -6
Cat5 posted clips of the mk-u47 with red and blue.
The blue to me sounded more classic the red more contempoary not quite so rich but also a very pleasing present sound.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 29, 2015 22:49:46 GMT -6
Whats the status of this one? Haven't been on this thread in awhile.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 30, 2015 0:00:16 GMT -6
I'm working on it..too slowly,... been trying to find the time, i'll hit it hard in the next few though. She's gonna be a badarse!
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 30, 2015 6:56:38 GMT -6
I'm working on it..too slowly,... been trying to find the time, i'll hit it hard in the next few though. She's gonna be a badarse! No doubt. Exceptional mic. |
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Post by svart on Jan 30, 2015 7:38:06 GMT -6
The blueline in the MK47 is the right choice. Once I heard mine I knew it.
Strangely enough, it sounds a bit more "hi-fi" than my gefell mic with a real M7 capsule.
One of these days I might pop that capsule out and put it in the MK47 to see if it's the mic amp or the capsule itself.
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Post by kidvybes on Jan 30, 2015 9:55:27 GMT -6
The blueline in the MK47 is the right choice. Once I heard mine I knew it. ...that seems to be the general concensus, but I'm hoping to put a crink in that theory...there are some recent revelations circulating in reference to the popularity of Thiersch's M7 capsules, and I (and some of my studio associates) have been sharing similar observations for some time... ...while many discredit his opinions, no doubt Klaus Heyne has some knowledge on the subject...here's his recent thoughts on the subject...when asked to compare an original Neumann M7, a new M7 and a new K47 for use in an U47 he replied: "No, they would sound distinctly different, but would still be recognizable as being part of the same family of sounds. Both would sound enticing and attractive, like no knock-off does, but of the two, the K47 would have less of a high present peak, and more of a low mid authority, and, by the way, would be ca. 3-4dB lower in noise. But that kind of comparison is hypothetical by now. I know of very few original Neumann Berlin M7 PVC capsules which still perform to spec. The PVC's hardening over time did a number on all of them, drying up the low end at best, or moving the noise floor up so much that the capsules become unusable. So the only M7-style PVC capsules available today would be aftermarket- either whole (backplate + skins, Thiersch, maybe someone else?) or re-diaphragmed Neumann or MG backplates (Thiersch and others, though I don't know another manufacturer of PVC aside of Thiersch and MG, and MG does not re-diaphragm, to my knowledge). And given that limited choice, as neither Thiersch nor MG have access anymore to the now obsolete PVC material which Neumann- West and East- used to create one of the Holy Grails of condenser capsules, the current winner in my book is clearly the Neumann K47." ...when asked to define an "M7 capsule" he responded: "In my opinion the post-2005 Gefell PVC M7 suffers the same shortcomings as all of the Thiersch PVC M7: congested and elevated mid range, which in some samples border on sibilance, plus measurable and clearly audible curtailment in the lows, to the point that the attenuation in the bass affects the overall frequency balance of the capsule, and makes it sound less musical. The lack of bass comes across subjectively as a boost in the higher frequencies. When high end boost is not supported with heft below, it does not sound pleasant to my ears. As these sound characteristics are quite similar in the PVC capsules of both Thiersch and MG, I have my suspicion that this may be based on the new material rather than on a specific capsule manufacturing or diaphragm mounting or aging technique. I would urge both manufacturers to take a look at the issue of membrane chemistry and experiment with a reformulated PVC material. A couple of years ago Oliver Archut and I went through all of the shapes, numbers and permutations of the outer tensioning/glue ridges of original M7 capsules from both Neumann factories-Berlin and Gefell-that we could get our hands on. We counted 11 different versions. Then we wanted to find out which one sounded "the best", as possible blueprint for future production. Unfortunately, there was no clear-cut sonic distinction between all of the post-war Berlin or Gefell versions I could detect, but there was a clear timbre difference between the two places of manufacturing; both sounded great, but slightly different in the high mids." ...I'm hoping that testing a good-quality K47 capsule in the MK-47 will shed some light on the "best option" conclusions being tossed around the DIY forum threads...that of course, remains to be seen and heard... |
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Post by svart on Jan 30, 2015 10:19:48 GMT -6
The blueline in the MK47 is the right choice. Once I heard mine I knew it. ...that seems to be the general concensus, but I'm hoping to put a crink in that theory...there are some recent revelations circulating in reference to the popularity of Thiersch's M7 capsules, and I (and some of my studio associates) have been sharing similar observations for some time... ...while many discredit his opinions, no doubt Klaus Heyne has some knowledge on the subject...here's his recent thoughts on the subject...when asked to compare an original Neumann M7, a new M7 and a new K47 for use in an U47 he replied: "No, they would sound distinctly different, but would still be recognizable as being part of the same family of sounds. Both would sound enticing and attractive, like no knock-off does, but of the two, the K47 would have less of a high present peak, and more of a low mid authority, and, by the way, would be ca. 3-4dB lower in noise. But that kind of comparison is hypothetical by now. I know of very few original Neumann Berlin M7 PVC capsules which still perform to spec. The PVC's hardening over time did a number on all of them, drying up the low end at best, or moving the noise floor up so much that the capsules become unusable. So the only M7-style PVC capsules available today would be aftermarket- either whole (backplate + skins, Thiersch, maybe someone else?) or re-diaphragmed Neumann or MG backplates (Thiersch and others, though I don't know another manufacturer of PVC aside of Thiersch and MG, and MG does not re-diaphragm, to my knowledge). And given that limited choice, as neither Thiersch nor MG have access anymore to the now obsolete PVC material which Neumann- West and East- used to create one of the Holy Grails of condenser capsules, the current winner in my book is clearly the Neumann K47." ...when asked to define an "M7 capsule" he responded: "In my opinion the post-2005 Gefell PVC M7 suffers the same shortcomings as all of the Thiersch PVC M7: congested and elevated mid range, which in some samples border on sibilance, plus measurable and clearly audible curtailment in the lows, to the point that the attenuation in the bass affects the overall frequency balance of the capsule, and makes it sound less musical. The lack of bass comes across subjectively as a boost in the higher frequencies. When high end boost is not supported with heft below, it does not sound pleasant to my ears. As these sound characteristics are quite similar in the PVC capsules of both Thiersch and MG, I have my suspicion that this may be based on the new material rather than on a specific capsule manufacturing or diaphragm mounting or aging technique. I would urge both manufacturers to take a look at the issue of membrane chemistry and experiment with a reformulated PVC material. A couple of years ago Oliver Archut and I went through all of the shapes, numbers and permutations of the outer tensioning/glue ridges of original M7 capsules from both Neumann factories-Berlin and Gefell-that we could get our hands on. We counted 11 different versions. Then we wanted to find out which one sounded "the best", as possible blueprint for future production. Unfortunately, there was no clear-cut sonic distinction between all of the post-war Berlin or Gefell versions I could detect, but there was a clear timbre difference between the two places of manufacturing; both sounded great, but slightly different in the high mids." ...I'm hoping that testing a good-quality K47 capsule in the MK-47 will shed some light on the "best option" conclusions being tossed around the DIY forum threads...that of course, remains to be seen and heard... Interesting and no doubt true on most of it. However, I wasn't interested in "the best" or "best re-creation" of a U47. In the end I just wanted a great mic that has the U47 vibe, and for it to be worth the 400$ I paid for the capsule and the 1000$ I ended up paying for the whole mic. I believe that it does indeed meet all of my expectations, and is thus "worth the money" to me. My gefell is supposedly from the 80's and I'm just wondering how close the recreation is to that capsule. they certainly look extremely similar. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 30, 2015 10:54:09 GMT -6
I've been a little surprised from the samples of the blue line the amount of top end I hear. So, if I don't like it when I get it, I might have Shannon do his thing. Or I might just sell it. I had the Wunder CM7 with an M7 and the GT with both the k47 and m7. All at the same time. I ultimately preferred the GT-k47...which kind've falls into line with what Klaus is saying. But who knows. We will see.
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Post by kidvybes on Jan 30, 2015 12:53:51 GMT -6
I've been a little surprised from the samples of the blue line the amount of top end I hear. So, if I don't like it when I get it, I might have Shannon do his thing. Or I might just sell it. I had the Wunder CM7 with an M7 and the GT with both the k47 and m7. All at the same time. I ultimately preferred the GT-k47...which kind've falls into line with what Klaus is saying. But who knows. We will see. ...interesting, after being accused of being too "pedantic" in his evaluation of current M7 offerings (in this purple-site thread), Klaus just responded even more emphatically: " 'Pedantic' connotes an unhealthy obsession with detail. I don't find it unreasonably obsessive to point out that NO aftermarket M7 capsule or diaphragm is able to reach the sonic quality of the original Neumann product, East or West. In my experience and opinion, all currently manufactured PVC M7 lack in three-dimensional, musical, emotionally attractive rendering, and, listening to them side by side with an original manufactured before 2005, this would be readily apparent to all." |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 30, 2015 13:48:03 GMT -6
Well, it IS kind've nerdy. The other thing I've noticed about the blue line samples were how 3 dimensional they sounded. And after hearing multiple U47's at Shannon's place I can certainly tell you that just because it's vintage doesn't mean it sounds good.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 30, 2015 15:02:39 GMT -6
ah and with all due respect, exactly how were the years' of aging accounted for or were people comparing brand new neumann 47 cap vs aftermarket. i must admit i get a little lost in not just the forest and tress comparisons but the exact which way the sun was shining through the leaves type of distinctions ?
love the 47 lore and history and celebrating my Scottish heritage and concluding you know for about 2 grand max's mk-u47 with blue cap is a hell of a mike !
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 30, 2015 17:51:38 GMT -6
The blueline in the MK47 is the right choice. Once I heard mine I knew it. Strangely enough, it sounds a bit more "hi-fi" than my gefell mic with a real M7 capsule. One of these days I might pop that capsule out and put it in the MK47 to see if it's the mic amp or the capsule itself. I would love to know the answer to this. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 30, 2015 18:13:52 GMT -6
I've always been curious about comparing the M7 Blueline to the Neuman K-47. I'd love to hear those two in a shootout. I don't know of Klaus Heyne, but his observations of the M7 capsule seem similar to mine. Now, from what I've heard here, the MK47 splits the difference with super vintage vibes and modern mics with lots of smooth highs, and a tight, full bottom, ( sounds like a hot chick, I know..). I like it, and I'm considering a few changes to my Tab/Funkenwerk/Archut UM17 Blueline. I heard from Mike at Blackspade, (who's been more than helpful at every juncture), and here's what he suggested..
, " What I would suggest experimenting with however, is the coupling cap. If you'd like more bass extension, you can experiment by lowering (more resonance) or increasing (lower cut-off point) the value of the cap.
Either way, you can always improve the sound of the mic with a few component tweaks, but the usual caveat applies: to gain a bit here, you always have to lose a bit somewhere else.
I'd make a few modifications alongside the coupling cap to bring your mic closer to that vintage sound you like; I'd start by switching out the three 1GΩ resistors to 2x 200MΩ and 1x 100MΩ. That will in general relax the sound a bit. I can then give you a vintage soviet coupling cap that sounds superb. I'll gladly send you one to try out.
Now the good thing about these mods is that they are all reversible. But please remember though, the size of a U47 headbasket has an impact on the low-end reproduction so you'll never be able to match it with the smaller diameter basket of the UM17. You can get close, but it won't be the same."
I think I'll give this a go in a couple of weeks, probably ship it off to Sinsay, unless you guys see something I should be made aware of, this is all over my head techwise.
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Post by kidvybes on Jan 30, 2015 18:56:43 GMT -6
I've always been curious about comparing the M7 Blueline to the Neuman K-47. I'd love to hear those two in a shootout. I don't know of Klaus Heyne, but his observations of the M7 capsule seem similar to mine. ...I thought I'd go straight to the source to hear his thoughts about the viability of the MK-U47...expecting the worst of course...  Klaus Heyne on MK-U47 |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 30, 2015 19:31:09 GMT -6
Not sure there's much he can say without having heard one. I wouldn't expect him to say, "Shit...that's a great idea..." It'll be interesting to see what the U47 Grinch says I'm joking, I'm joking. Like others have said - I'll base this mic on it's own merits. If it sounds good, it sounds good. |
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Post by yotonic on Jan 30, 2015 19:40:55 GMT -6
Don't count out the Flea K47 capsule. Ivan has a custom backplate design and I love it in my MK47.
No one probably wants to hear this but I have owned vintage Neumann U47s long and short body, Grosser Voxorama, Telefunken U47 reissue, every capsule, and just about anything money could buy. Unfortunately in the end the most noticeable improvement came from working with other vocalists who shared breathing, and mouth, and tone shaping tips that changed resonance, eq, and tone more than my Neve preamps or vintage mics.
An Sm58 with a good preamp and excellent vocal technique and thoughtful arrangement in relation to range and key goes further than any mic, as does good writing in general. Any great phrase or melody positioned right in the sweet spot will sound amazing no matter what mic it is sung on. That's exactly why labels spend so much money on writing camps and teams. Production is so secondary, as much as we all love it.
When I work with singers now, I try to take my very first impression about their voice and either "fix it" or accentuate it. And if you want to keep a client for life help them improve their craft from your own knowledge instead of a box and he or she will be your client for life.My secret weapon is "relaxation" of the vocal chords. Most singers sing too hard which doesn't always translate to tape. A more relaxed and controlled vocal creates a tone that just hammers. A harder sung vocal thins out even though the singer doesn't realize it. The mic is the least important part of getting a good vocal unless your client is a complete pro.
I love what the Black Keys do with the Neumann KM84. That's a singer who understands his own tone and trademark sound.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 30, 2015 19:47:21 GMT -6
Don't count out the Flea K47 capsule. Ivan has a custom backplate design and I love it in my MK47. No one probably wants to hear this but I have owned vintage Neumann U47s long and short body, Grosser Voxorama, Telefunken U47 reissue, every capsule, and just about anything money could buy. Unfortunately in the end the most noticeable improvement came from working with other vocalists who shared breathing, and mouth, and tone shaping tips that changed resonance, eq, and tone more than my Neve preamps or vintage mics. An Sm58 with a good preamp and excellent vocal technique and thoughtful arrangement in relation to range and key goes further than any mic, as does good writing in general. Any great phrase or melody positioned right in the sweet spot will sound amazing no matter what mic it is sung on. That's exactly why labels spend so much money on writing camps and teams. Production is so secondary, as much as we all love it. When I work with singers now, I try to take my very first impression about their voice and either "fix it" or accentuate it. And if you want to keep a client for life help them improve their craft from your own knowledge instead of a box and he or she will be your client for life.My secret weapon is "relaxation" of the vocal chords. Most singers sing too hard which doesn't always translate to tape. A more relaxed and controlled vocal creates a tone that just hammers. A harder sung vocal thins out even though the singer doesn't realize it. The mic is the least important part of getting a good vocal unless your client is a complete pro. I love what the Black Keys do with the Neumann KM84. That's a singer who understands his own tone and trademark sound. |
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Post by yotonic on Jan 30, 2015 19:50:48 GMT -6
LOL!! I knew I had one too many gin&tonics at dinner. At least the 15 year olds on Gearslutz would have appreciated this. Along with my auto tune tricks...
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 30, 2015 19:57:54 GMT -6
I don't disagree...but quality gear just gets you there SO much quicker and easier. I'm freaking amazed at this D-28 Authentic I just bought. A good mic and It's point and shoot.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 30, 2015 20:45:59 GMT -6
Huh...vocal technique is important huh? |
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