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Post by warlordpriest on Jan 27, 2015 14:06:10 GMT -6
It seems like you guys are talking bout jacking out of the hardisk recorder into the UFX (Its 5 a.m. here now, so I may have missed something reading this too fast.)
What I'm talking about is jacking out of the analog output of the stereo buss compressor into the AD converter
Will the converter take an analog in?
Sorry if I missed something.
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Post by svart on Jan 27, 2015 14:17:13 GMT -6
It seems like you guys are talking bout jacking out of the hardisk recorder into the UFX (Its 5 a.m. here now, so I may have missed something reading this too fast.) What I'm talking about is jacking out of the analog output of the stereo buss compressor into the AD converter Will the converter take an analog in? Sorry if I missed something. Ok, let me explain the signal flow. The converter will have both analog-to-digital and digital-to-analog functions. Analog inputs->conversion->S/PDIF (digital output) and S/PDIF (digital input)->conversion->analog outputs Does that make sense? |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 27, 2015 14:21:56 GMT -6
It seems like you guys are talking bout jacking out of the hardisk recorder into the UFX (Its 5 a.m. here now, so I may have missed something reading this too fast.) What I'm talking about is jacking out of the analog output of the stereo buss compressor into the AD converter Will the converter take an analog in? Sorry if I missed something. Ok, let me explain the signal flow. The converter will have both analog-to-digital and digital-to-analog functions. Analog inputs->conversion->S/PDIF (digital output) and S/PDIF (digital input)->conversion->analog outputs Does that make sense? ...and S/PDIF is essentially the same as AES right? |
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Post by svart on Jan 27, 2015 14:40:33 GMT -6
Ok, let me explain the signal flow. The converter will have both analog-to-digital and digital-to-analog functions. Analog inputs->conversion->S/PDIF (digital output) and S/PDIF (digital input)->conversion->analog outputs Does that make sense? ...and S/PDIF is essentially the same as AES right? Mostly. The data encoding is identical. AES3 unbalanced is 75ohm just like S/PDIF, whereas the balanced AES3 is 110ohm. The signal amplitudes are slightly different, with AES unbalanced being up to 1.2V p-p and S/PDIF being 0.6V p-p. The other difference is that S/PDIF carries copy protection bits in the code that AES receivers simply ignore. As I mentioned before, most transceivers can do both AES3 and S/PDIF without any problem, so in the case of my design, the DAC will accept unbalanced AES3 and S/PDIF inputs. |
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Post by warlordpriest on Jan 27, 2015 14:49:41 GMT -6
OK. So, what to expect, once your converter becomes the master (compared to the converters in the UFX? )
a smoothing effect coming out of the other end, as if the signal's digital artifacts are somehow rounded off?
a more 3D sound?
a warmer sound?
more clarity but somehow less harshness (sounds like the first question)
and more importantly will the change Not be something subtle in which you have to have the top monitors to hear….something that is apparent even through a pair of decent headphones?
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 27, 2015 15:11:58 GMT -6
well you will hear a clearer, truer more resolved version of what you put into it but that is relative to the quality of the interface you are using now
when you use the acronym UFX, are you referring to an RME UFX or to interfaces in general ?
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Post by warlordpriest on Jan 27, 2015 15:14:54 GMT -6
Yes, RME UFX.
I don't have a lot of experience but comparing the UFX to what I had before, a Saffire pro 40, the conversion process sounds kind of brittle . ..or maybe sterile is the word…and the preamps on the front, well, not much use for them but that's another story.
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Post by svart on Jan 27, 2015 15:26:59 GMT -6
OK. So, what to expect, once your converter becomes the master (compared to the converters in the UFX? ) a smoothing effect coming out of the other end, as if the signal's digital artifacts are somehow rounded off? a more 3D sound? a warmer sound? more clarity but somehow less harshness (sounds like the first question) and more importantly will the change Not be something subtle in which you have to have the top monitors to hear….something that is apparent even through a pair of decent headphones? Every situation will be different, and different setups will react differently. I can't know how your specific setup will behave. It depends on how your devices deal with external clocks, and if they do clock recovery or clock syncing, and probably a dozen other things to do with their hardware and software. I'm not going to promise anything to anyone about how improved a particular application might be. I reject the business model of hyping up performance solely to get sales, unlike most other companies in the audio world. It's also just me making these things. I don't have a room full of venture capitalists nor do I have any employees (yet). Will the product be good? I think so, but why wouldn't I think that? Will it be better than others? I think so, but I'm not really concerned with that. I'm just making it as good as I can. Will it be X% better than what you have? I have no idea. Does it sound good? So far, I think so. |
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Post by warlordpriest on Jan 27, 2015 15:57:35 GMT -6
I understand your design goals. Not asking for you to make any promises. I remember you had a baseline of performance that you were trying to equal and exceed (without the cost of big brand names and hype.) Don't remember it now.
I read it a few days ago and should have written it down.
At any rate, definitely interested because for me it would be a shortcut to a move that would be waaay down the road otherwise.
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Post by warlordpriest on Jan 28, 2015 20:14:01 GMT -6
Here it is: here. These are basically top flight converters that you're doing ...Right up there with the top of the market
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 29, 2015 2:02:00 GMT -6
Yes that is the point of the exercise and svart is using his professional expertise to spec parts that will be affordable and provide very good jitter etc..
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Post by warlordpriest on Feb 1, 2015 8:46:23 GMT -6
But since I'm starting with a 16 bit recording from a hard disk and it has already been run through the AD converters of that machine, coming out as an audio signal once again and then hitting the AD of the Svart it seems inrealistc for me to expect any improvement of the sound, given the inherent limitations of the first conversion process.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 1, 2015 9:22:59 GMT -6
It's early...so I might not be thinking straight...but I believe you would go into the Svart box from your pre, then SPDIF into your HD recorder...therefore skipping the HD's AD process.
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Post by svart on Feb 1, 2015 10:05:57 GMT -6
But since I'm starting with a 16 bit recording from a hard disk and it has already been run through the AD converters of that machine, coming out as an audio signal once again and then hitting the AD of the Svart it seems inrealistc for me to expect any improvement of the sound, given the inherent limitations of the first conversion process. In this case you are mixing down? So you would have to come through another set of converters during mixdown anyway (through analog summing/mixer?). In situations like these you will always lose some fidelity, that's just the facts of conversion. However, you can reduce the loss to as little as possible with good converters. Same for the DAC side of your HDD process. The cleanliness of the clock driving the DAC system matters too. As I mentioned before, it's all relative though. I can't say my box will be better or worse than what you already have. It seems like you aren't convinced my device will be any better than anyone else's. That's cool, and I expect people will be skeptical of some dude on the internet selling gear, because I certainly would be. In your situation I'd wait and see what other people say about this thing first before you decide if it's right for you. |
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Post by warlordpriest on Feb 3, 2015 1:55:33 GMT -6
Thanks for responding to my question! Yes, I record on the hard disk and also mix it down to a 2 Track on the same hard disk recorder. To me, the sound of recording on the hard disk is far warmer and fatter than the sound of recordings going direct into a computer. Its a tedious process, compared to working on a computer but I'm pretty committed to it although still keeping my eyes out for ways to improve the sound, for example, going into a nice preamp before hitting the hard disk.
Of course the inherent limitations of this method are obviously the converters of the hard disk and the limitations of disk space as well as the impossibly of superseding the clock of the hard disk recorder. Eventually I'm going to have to come up with a better solution but by that time my budget will be a lot bigger.
No, Svart. You've been considering this project for a long time. I've read posts of yours, at least as far back as 2008 discussing this process, and in my mind there is no doubt that whatever you have come up with is going to be awesome.
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Post by carymiller on Mar 26, 2015 20:28:52 GMT -6
So, I need a show of virtual hands to figure out how many A/D converters to have made in the first runs so I can budget accordingly. I also understand that when this kind of things comes around lots of folks say they are going to buy, however, the actual number of buyers is quite a bit smaller once it comes time to actually send money... So if you are on the fence, at least say so, as this is going to be a big cash outlay on my part for the first units of a device I'm not even sure more than 5-6 people have expressed much interest in. Also, if you are interested in the forthcoming DAC upgrade, let me know that as well. ADC: 1/4 TRS Stereo Analog to SPDIF/AES PCM4222/DIT4192 ADA4898 or LM4562 opamps Chassis: 1U chassis with internal power supply, 120/240VAC Microprocessor controlled bit depth and sample rate switching via the front panel LCD screen for ease of setup Projected price with ADC board with chassis: 375-400USD DAC(preliminary): SPDIF/AES to 1/4 TRS stereo analog Dual/single PCM1794/WM8804 ADA4898 or LM4562 opamps Single card upgrade to the ADC chassis with ability to be used standalone Microprocessor controlled bit depth and sample rate override Automatic bit depth/sample rate setting via SPDIF stream Projected price: 350-400USD That would make the ADC+DAC cards in a chassis around est. 800$USD The chassis can be populated with either the ADC or DAC cards, or both! You'll be able to order these combinations when they are available. Hi, I'm new to the board...but extremely interested in this if these are mastering grade converters you're trying to make. Is there anyway you would be free to maybe converse on the phone about this project? |
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 26, 2015 21:03:45 GMT -6
I take the risk count me in for an ADC but has to work in Europe Germany 230 Volts… do not forget the shipping costs!!!
If I love the ADC I am in for an DAC too.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 26, 2015 21:27:23 GMT -6
mrholmes - check out the "Secret Project" thread here on the DIY page for more info.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 26, 2015 21:30:00 GMT -6
mrholmes - check out the "Secret Project" thread here on the DIY page for more info. i did and it sounds intrestig …. so where to put the money??? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 26, 2015 21:32:19 GMT -6
Well - I think I'm gonna get to hear it here soon...then I think he's gonna go into production. svart |
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Post by svart on Mar 27, 2015 6:54:26 GMT -6
Soon!
Still working out bugs. Probably send the test unit to John late next week.
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Post by svart on Mar 27, 2015 7:01:27 GMT -6
So, I need a show of virtual hands to figure out how many A/D converters to have made in the first runs so I can budget accordingly. I also understand that when this kind of things comes around lots of folks say they are going to buy, however, the actual number of buyers is quite a bit smaller once it comes time to actually send money... So if you are on the fence, at least say so, as this is going to be a big cash outlay on my part for the first units of a device I'm not even sure more than 5-6 people have expressed much interest in. Also, if you are interested in the forthcoming DAC upgrade, let me know that as well. ADC: 1/4 TRS Stereo Analog to SPDIF/AES PCM4222/DIT4192 ADA4898 or LM4562 opamps Chassis: 1U chassis with internal power supply, 120/240VAC Microprocessor controlled bit depth and sample rate switching via the front panel LCD screen for ease of setup Projected price with ADC board with chassis: 375-400USD DAC(preliminary): SPDIF/AES to 1/4 TRS stereo analog Dual/single PCM1794/WM8804 ADA4898 or LM4562 opamps Single card upgrade to the ADC chassis with ability to be used standalone Microprocessor controlled bit depth and sample rate override Automatic bit depth/sample rate setting via SPDIF stream Projected price: 350-400USD That would make the ADC+DAC cards in a chassis around est. 800$USD The chassis can be populated with either the ADC or DAC cards, or both! You'll be able to order these combinations when they are available. Hi, I'm new to the board...but extremely interested in this if these are mastering grade converters you're trying to make. Is there anyway you would be free to maybe converse on the phone about this project? There was a discussion on this prior to your joining. I don't necessarily want to call them any-grade converters, simply because I don't believe in marketing hype. These are pretty much the best converters I can build within a reasonable price point, using the best parts for the job at hand. That's my opinion anyway.. I'll say that I believe they will contend with others used for mastering, or final mixdown/monitoring, etc. |
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Post by carymiller on Mar 27, 2015 13:57:45 GMT -6
Hi, I'm new to the board...but extremely interested in this if these are mastering grade converters you're trying to make. Is there anyway you would be free to maybe converse on the phone about this project? There was a discussion on this prior to your joining. I don't necessarily want to call them any-grade converters, simply because I don't believe in marketing hype. These are pretty much the best converters I can build within a reasonable price point, using the best parts for the job at hand. That's my opinion anyway.. I'll say that I believe they will contend with others used for mastering, or final mixdown/monitoring, etc That's interesting...I like how you present the product you're trying to design. I'm fond of saying that I don't need "Gucci Bags" to make great recordings. When it comes to converters I've been particularly frustrated as I've been looking for a system which fits my needs within a reasonable price range for a long time. Mytek 8x192 has so far been the best option for multiple I/O for summing mixers / consoles and mastering that I can afford within budget...while running PC's rather than Macs (which is my current preference.) Will your converters support Windows platforms? |
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Post by svart on Mar 27, 2015 14:43:51 GMT -6
There was a discussion on this prior to your joining. I don't necessarily want to call them any-grade converters, simply because I don't believe in marketing hype. These are pretty much the best converters I can build within a reasonable price point, using the best parts for the job at hand. That's my opinion anyway.. I'll say that I believe they will contend with others used for mastering, or final mixdown/monitoring, etc That's interesting...I like how you present the product you're trying to design. I'm fond of saying that I don't need "Gucci Bags" to make great recordings. When it comes to converters I've been particularly frustrated as I've been looking for a system which fits my needs within a reasonable price range for a long time. Mytek 8x192 has so far been the best option for multiple I/O for summing mixers / consoles and mastering that I can afford within budget...while running PC's rather than Macs (which is my current preference.) Will your converters support Windows platforms? These converters simply give and take a SPDIF digital stream. So, as long as you have a soundcard with coax/rca SPDIF I/O these should work without a problem. |
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 27, 2015 15:40:45 GMT -6
Soon! Still working out bugs. Probably send the test unit to John late next week. Makes sense to have a long test period. |
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