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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 6, 2015 13:05:07 GMT -6
When you buy a Burl, you get a warranty and a sticker.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 6, 2015 13:15:04 GMT -6
When you buy a Burl, you get a warranty and a sticker. When I bought my first set of Panasonic / Ramsas the only reason I got anything was because I had the personal email addresses of the design team from my days at FullCo! |
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Post by formatcyes on Jan 6, 2015 14:06:30 GMT -6
When you buy a Burl, you get a warranty and a sticker. What a sticker. Read that svart see what is required to keep a customer happy. I don't want no stinking manual I WANT a sticker  |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 6, 2015 14:52:16 GMT -6
and burl b2 = $2-3,000 out of your bank account; I'm just saying ,,, well unless you buy from RF ! |
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Post by svart on Jan 6, 2015 15:07:40 GMT -6
and burl b2 = $2-3,000 out of your bank account; I'm just saying ,,, well unless you buy from RF ! Just wait til Johnny K sells his again, pick it up for a steal and then sell it back to him a few months later for profit. |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 6, 2015 15:22:07 GMT -6
SHSSS ! Secret project: Stealth Comm pic!! Share only on threat of death !! : Attachment Deleted |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 6, 2015 15:25:05 GMT -6
and burl b2 = $2-3,000 out of your bank account; I'm just saying ,,, well unless you buy from RF ! Just wait til Johnny K sells his again, pick it up for a steal and then sell it back to him a few months later for profit. ^^this^^, damn how do you think I was going to pay for yours, man now I need a payment plan B ! as plan JK is tits up ! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 15:31:28 GMT -6
^The first post i ever read, where the word "tits" appeared when talking about analog-digital converters...
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 6, 2015 15:50:59 GMT -6
that's why JK pays me the big bucks to broaden your elocution horizons and elucidate you with tit references; ah,, I was talking about the bird though; you ? |
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Post by lpedrum on Jan 6, 2015 16:07:59 GMT -6
If I may make a suggestion: Many of us (even us working professionals) rarely purchase converters, so an understanding of syncing and WC issues and how it relates and connects to our own gear gets fuzzy fast. If you're serious about getting into the converter building business I would suggest that you (or someone you hire) create explicit instructions on how your product will interact with the half dozen most popular interfaces out there--Apogee, Apollo, etc. Otherwise the customer is left to Google searching and asking friends to find out if the ADC will even work for him. It would also save you the trouble of answering the same questions over and over. I'm surprised that other companies don't take the time to do this--we're talking about a finite amount of information that would be extremely helpful to the potential buyer. Understood and agreed.. To a point. I've already planned to attempt this in a high level fashion with an included manual. However, as I've pointed out, there will be instances that only actual usage will explain. This also should never take the place of a person reading and understanding the user manual to their interface device. For me to attempt to explain how other devices work opens myself up to a whole lot of undocumented issues with other hardware devices and the probably "but I bought this because you SAID it would work!" even though the issue probably isn't my fault at all! At some point my responsibility has to end and the end user and the designers of the other products need to take over responsibility of knowing and understanding the systems they use. In other legal aspects, something like this could open up avenues for litigious people who have either taken something out of context or have banked on something they hoped would work. Remember, I do this design stuff for a living and I've seen all kinds of things like this popping up over time. There is always one person who is angry enough to get lawyers involved, typically over some small detail that they find to be easy pickings for legal proceedings. Say if I have some instruction and it turns out to be wrong or otherwise doesn't work as expected and someone messed up thousands of dollars worth of recording time on my instructions.. Who is liable and who pays for that? If my box outputs a simple data stream and it's a settings issue with an unrelated product, then it's not me or my company who is liable.. However, if I'm the one who gives faulty instructions then I could be very liable. I have other issues to worry about before things like this. In other words, instructions from me should never take the place of understanding your own system to the smallest detail. This is something I would expect everyone to do on their own and I feel is virtuous. For example the question of if a WC stream is generated from the clock recovered from the SPDIF input of a particular interface. User manuals rarely go into such detail because the designer of the interface is not concerned with the end user understanding these fundamentals, especially if it exposes shortcomings in the design. The designer expects the average user to use their device in a specific way. They design their product for the average user. Generally, they will have some amount of more detailed information somewhere for their "power users", but it's up to the user to find this information. I have not seen such detail in any of the manuals I have looked at. It's also expressed in more modern terminology: LMGTFY. Well thought out and I totally hear where your'e coming from. You certainly can't make promises our assumptions about compatibility with other gear. One reason I ask is that I have an old Apogee Mini Me which I always liked, and I assumed I could connect it via SPDIF out to the Symphony. But no. Even through the SPDIF cable the Mini Me can't sync to the Symphony clock and that's verified by Apogee, so that's that. So I just need to be sure that if and when I purchase a stereo ADC it will be compatible. Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough response. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 6, 2015 17:14:06 GMT -6
and burl b2 = $2-3,000 out of your bank account; I'm just saying ,,, well unless you buy from RF ! Just wait til Johnny K sells his again, pick it up for a steal and then sell it back to him a few months later for profit. I think I learned my lesson...but we will see. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 6, 2015 17:18:22 GMT -6
Understood and agreed.. To a point. I've already planned to attempt this in a high level fashion with an included manual. However, as I've pointed out, there will be instances that only actual usage will explain. This also should never take the place of a person reading and understanding the user manual to their interface device. For me to attempt to explain how other devices work opens myself up to a whole lot of undocumented issues with other hardware devices and the probably "but I bought this because you SAID it would work!" even though the issue probably isn't my fault at all! At some point my responsibility has to end and the end user and the designers of the other products need to take over responsibility of knowing and understanding the systems they use. In other legal aspects, something like this could open up avenues for litigious people who have either taken something out of context or have banked on something they hoped would work. Remember, I do this design stuff for a living and I've seen all kinds of things like this popping up over time. There is always one person who is angry enough to get lawyers involved, typically over some small detail that they find to be easy pickings for legal proceedings. Say if I have some instruction and it turns out to be wrong or otherwise doesn't work as expected and someone messed up thousands of dollars worth of recording time on my instructions.. Who is liable and who pays for that? If my box outputs a simple data stream and it's a settings issue with an unrelated product, then it's not me or my company who is liable.. However, if I'm the one who gives faulty instructions then I could be very liable. I have other issues to worry about before things like this. In other words, instructions from me should never take the place of understanding your own system to the smallest detail. This is something I would expect everyone to do on their own and I feel is virtuous. For example the question of if a WC stream is generated from the clock recovered from the SPDIF input of a particular interface. User manuals rarely go into such detail because the designer of the interface is not concerned with the end user understanding these fundamentals, especially if it exposes shortcomings in the design. The designer expects the average user to use their device in a specific way. They design their product for the average user. Generally, they will have some amount of more detailed information somewhere for their "power users", but it's up to the user to find this information. I have not seen such detail in any of the manuals I have looked at. It's also expressed in more modern terminology: LMGTFY. Well thought out and I totally hear where your'e coming from. You certainly can't make promises our assumptions about compatibility with other gear. One reason I ask is that I have an old Apogee Mini Me which I always liked, and I assumed I could connect it via SPDIF out to the Symphony. But no. Even through the SPDIF cable the Mini Me can't sync to the Symphony clock and that's verified by Apogee, so that's that. So I just need to be sure that if and when I purchase a stereo ADC it will be compatible. Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough response. Pretty sure the Symphony can't be externally clocked in USB mode. You need the Tbolt box or other connection. Whomp Whomp. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 6, 2015 17:50:10 GMT -6
and burl b2 = $2-3,000 out of your bank account; I'm just saying ,,, well unless you buy from RF ! Just wait til Johnny K sells his again, pick it up for a steal and then sell it back to him a few months later for profit. I thought that was your plan to finance the first run! |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 6, 2015 17:53:51 GMT -6
wow! a lot of posts in the last day, as far as a user manual and implementation Q's, Svarts rig is pretty meat and potatoes(exactly like id think we all want it), take it from a guy who's been going through the ringer trying to figure out my console feeding conversion dilemma, i checked out a whole lot of options over the last year, what was the most frustrating part was trying to understand how all this stuff worked together...or not, it's a giant PITA to figure out, and there is a lot of actual bad info out there, and surprisingly by dealers and manufacturers, i bought and sold a digi 192 under the guidance of vintage king telling me the avid HD native card would run it and PT11, neither turned out to be TRUE! And they got their info from an Avid rep that is no longer employed with the company(thank you ericn for insisting, i'd probably still be going that route and throwing $ away right up to the point of plugging it in to reveal failure! 8), so be patient and search the web, ask questions to helpful others while looking for contradictions, you will figure things out...slowly lol, hopefully with less pain than i did. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 22:18:46 GMT -6
When it comes to clocking, in most cases you do not get full documentation about all possibilities, let alone incompatibilities and design flaws, from the manufacturers of sound cards, interfaces etc., not even from the big companies in the business. Most of the time, the best you can get is a confirmation about an incompatibility that you discover. If it breaks the advertised specs, sometimes you can get your money back, if it's a new unit. But in general, that's it. Michal from Mytek e.g. implemented a "mouse piano" DIP switch to set all kinds of settings for ADAT compatibility issues plus a generic manual explaining the settings for the multichannel unit i have. This already is the best i ever saw, maybe the early Sonorus interface manual was on par. But for SP/DIF, as used here, a stereo signal format, it is as simple as it can get. Clocking is done over the signal line, and this already is the best option and easy to handle. Implementing WC may be convenient for people with bigger setups already using a house clock or a clock distributon amp for their main ADCs WC signal. BUT it also complicates things considerably. It doesn't really make too much sense for an SP/DIF DAC (you get concurrent clocks, because the signal line already contains a stable clock signal and you easily run into not so easy to debug synchronizing issues if clocks differ even slightly and you run into signal "gaps" after unforseeable amount of time), and making the highest quality ADC the clock master is also the best option, and this is what svarts box's ADC is intended and designed for. It is a clean concept. If you need the ADCs clock, you get it with SP/DIF as of the SP/DIF specification. Everything else has to be done with the SP/DIF receiving device, and fully depends on it's feature sets. For the average user it's as easy as it gets, you set the svart ADC SP/DIF input of your interface the clock master and clock everything off of that. Done. More complex setups might need some thinking, but this cannot be the stereo box developer's task, who implemented the cleanest and easiest interfacing spec... |
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Post by warlordpriest on Jan 25, 2015 9:48:56 GMT -6
On the fence but only because I need to do some more research on how to implement the system in my primitive setup, so rather than ask foolish questions at this point you can put me down as interested in the 4th run.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 25, 2015 18:43:06 GMT -6
just need spdif i/o and it will fit into your Bedrock system like hand and glove |
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Post by warlordpriest on Jan 26, 2015 14:32:03 GMT -6
Well, at this point my bedrock system is a hard disk recorder. I mix everything on that and then run it out, analog out, to some outboard compressors and then to a Fireface UFX. (Told you it was primitive:-) so it would have to be something that takes an analog signal in (although I notice the UFX has some spdif in and outs on it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 15:14:08 GMT -6
Ah, i see. I just took a look into the UFX features. It has the option to configure two of it's lightpipe ports as SP/DIF I/O instead of ADAT.
To use that with svarts unit, you would need a unit that converts SPDIF optical(TOSLINK) to SPDIF analog (normally rca jack) and a parallel conversion way that does the opposite. Since this is an electronically very easy conversion for a quite common task, i think there are several fairly low-priced units available. I just googled "coax to toslink bidirectional" and got lots of converters below 50 bucks...
Two lightpipes and 2 RCA to TS cables should connect everything and gets you an excellent AD for quality recording to your computer and a first class monitoring DAC...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 15:30:18 GMT -6
Ah, wait...forget my previous post. :-P Too fast, hipshot... The UFX has an AES/EBU analog I/O as well. Even better. Get away without lightpipes. Just looked into svart 's first post, it states AES/SPDIF and TRS jacks. EDIT: Please ignore this: "If i am not totally off track, a trs to xlr cable - might - do." Maybe svart can chime in on the specs of his out, and why he chose TRS jacks and AES/EBU output level compatibility.... |
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Post by svart on Jan 26, 2015 16:14:41 GMT -6
Ah, wait...forget my previous post. :-P Too fast, hipshot... The UFX has an AES/EBU analog I/O as well. Even better. Get away without lightpipes. Just looked into svart 's first post, it states AES/SPDIF and TRS jacks. If i am not totally off track, a trs to xlr cable - might - do. Maybe svart can chime in on the specs of his out, and why he chose TRS jacks and AES/EBU output level compatibility.... TRS is just more compact. You can adapt TRS to XLR without much fuss, so I chose the easier route for time's sake. AES is simply the "professional" version of S/PDIF. It runs 110ohms to S/PDIF's 75ohm impedance, and has a higher signal level. S/PDIF has the option for using copy control bits that aren't used in AES. Most, if not all, interface IC's made today can interface with both SPDIF and AES without any issues. The RCA/COAX version of SPDIF seems to be the more popular implementation, so that's why I chose to use the RCA jack. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 16:47:52 GMT -6
Ahhh,
yes...thanks for clarifying everything.
After reading the first post i was under the assumption, you put out the digital AES/SPDIF signal with TRS too(which obviously now makes no sense really, don't know how i came to that), but i see, it's just rca, like SPDIF standard.
So, a simple RCA to XLR cable does it for almost all modern AES-compatible recievers/transmitters. To comply fully with the standards, some simple resistors in the cable would do. But i know, receiver/transmitter chips handle this gracefully...so one unlikely gets any problems at all. Was a hard day and i probably tend to overcomplicate things this evening. Sorry...
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 26, 2015 19:37:45 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Jan 26, 2015 20:24:44 GMT -6
Interesting. It's easy to convert from XLR AES to coax S/PDIF. You just hook up the + digital signal to the center of the S/PDIF coax. Technically this isn't the correct impedance, nor the correct level, but it'd work, and probably work fine for short cables. To do it right you'd need a couple resistors to make a min-loss pad which provides the correct impedance to the source. Looks like your's is powered. Probably mainly for the differential amp to make a differential digital signal for AES. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 2:49:06 GMT -6
Yepp, this way you get a stable signal for long cable runs for SPDIF -> AES/EBU. I guess they just pad the AES signal down on the AES/EBU -> SPDIF side and don't use a full de-balancing circuit, like you described...one would have to have a look into it to know for sure what this adapter does internally...
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