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Post by ephi82 on Nov 5, 2014 13:25:21 GMT -6
We all know how the "Loudness Wars" have impacted the quality of listening experience in a lot of modern recordings. It has also impacted the quality of sound in "re masters" of older analog classics. In too many cases, the first generation CD masters are much better than more modern "re masters" because of brick wall limiting etc
Not long ago, the availability of databases that capture the dynamic range of various released recordings have helped me make decisions about what recordings not to buy!
In any case, I recently analyzed WAV files for dynamic range of my home recorded masters. (spanning about 12 years of digital recordings)
I was pretty happy to see that most of my recordings had DR's that ranged from 12-14. Modern "crushed" music has a DR=5-7 .
Anyone else looking at your DR this way?
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 5, 2014 17:03:08 GMT -6
I haven't, but it's nice to see some people don't latch on to these dumbass trends, and just stick to making music sound as good as they can, good job man!
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Post by ephi82 on Nov 5, 2014 18:35:02 GMT -6
Thanks Tony.
I am interested to hear from members about how they approach compression, limiting and other techniques in their mixes.
When I play a wav file from one of my mix "masters", or play a CD burned from a WAV master, I notice that I need to turn the volume up by about 5-10% relative to commercial CD's. Note that I dont send my files off to a mastering engineer. My goal is to get the recordings to sound as best possible in my file playback system as well as CD player
What's cool is that there is not any appreciable noise that comes up, while the recordings are really fun to listen to, with wide dynamics.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 5, 2014 19:29:01 GMT -6
I use Pro-L as the final limiter on my mixes. Anything below -8 dB on the average level meter sounds pretty transparent. Pushing it up toward -6 on loud sections gets into the danger zone of a mushy and flat mix, so care is required when trying to get that high, it doesn't always work out. Anything above -6 is just pure hell. Sometimes I back it off a bit and I'm like, "ahhh... there's the music again." I do like a nice loud master or mix, but ya gotta be careful when trying to get there, it's easy to ruin things with careless adjustments.
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Post by svart on Nov 5, 2014 22:36:55 GMT -6
I generally mix down to around -12 to -10.
I'll save those files and then proceed to run a lot of instances of small amounts of compression. Sometimes I'll run 6 compressors doing like 1-2db GR each.
Of course, this all depends on the mix. Better mixes are naturally easier to compress without a lot of artifacts. The more things that are out of balance, the worse it becomes when trying to get the level up.
I spend a lot of time doing test mixes and then ramming up the level, then doing another mix with something slightly changed and on and on and on. This way I understand how to get my mixes balanced for the best possible mastering.
There is still lots to learn though.
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Post by popmann on Nov 5, 2014 22:49:14 GMT -6
I've studied numbers retroactively....and yes--I've come to a really conclusive decision--DR13, DR12, DR11. Depending on style of music, these are the best sounding recordings of all time. Period. Which doesnt mean that just getting those numbers makes a recording worth a shit...but, leaving them ON EITHER SIDE makes it a serious compromise. Of course, there's always qualifiers....vinyl equals 1.5db less than the exact same master in digital because of the low frequency lost, which drops the RMS more than high frequencies would. So, if you take Hotel California, the vinyl is DR14--the same loudness level in digital is DR12'ish. Same loudness, low end restored. There are some modern recordings that sound nice at DR8/9/10--but, I've yet to hear an example where they didn't sound BETTER if they're left a few DB more dynamic.
The idea that on headphones or whatever louder is better is utter BS....it's accounted for in the not going OVER 13/14--get more and there's truth to that--you need quite a quiet room and powerful system for the Mobile Fidelity master of The Wall, as example at DR17--but, that's also inflated by their use of so many low level sound effects and such--band recordings with bass and drum kit=DR13/12/11. If you include DR10 for dynamic challenged 60s recordings, it was the dynamic level of popular music for about 40 years. Whether it was the Carpenters or Metallica--they fell in that range. People that say it's not about the numbers, IMO, are fools. I would've said that before embarking on the hindsight analysis of the best and worst sounding recordings of my entire collection. I mean who wants to believe it comes down to numbers? But it does....in an exclusionary fashion. Good numbers don't mean it sounds good....but, out of range absolutely means it sounds bad. Getting a 32bit application to do volume attenuation helps....as part of the issue is driving the analog circuits AFTER conversion too hard...but, still--that's a band aid to a problem that simply needn't be a problem.
Man up. Single digit DRs are for pussies. You want to talk about something more important that every single piece of gear you own? There you go. DR 13, 12, and 11, oh my.....
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Post by svart on Nov 5, 2014 23:16:36 GMT -6
LOL.
I think everyone knows I couldn't care less about numbers. If it's crushed and sounds good, then it's good. If it's not crushed and sounds good, then it's also good.
Honestly I think it's much harder to get a good sounding crushed recording than it is to get a double digit DR.
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Post by jeromemason on Nov 6, 2014 0:24:25 GMT -6
I normally shoot for -12 to -14 in mix down. If I'm mastering I will get it up to around -8 to -6 RMS. Whats more important, I listen very closely at low volumes to make sure I'm not destroying anything and that i'm not introducing any distortion. If I do go up to -6 that's usually on really hard rock stuff. I mix mostly country and I never exceed -8 mastering it.
The AOM limiter allows you to really jack the RMS wayyy up without causing any problems, so I have to watch my meters pretty carefully since I started using that limiter, it's the best one out there IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 7:06:36 GMT -6
Use the Tischmeyer DR meter vst or similar as the last thing in the master tray while mixing to get a feel for reasonable DR for *your* mixes. Compare with your favorite commercial reference productions to see what you are aiming for, and how they did achieve their lower DR.
Decide if it's worth it, or if you want to have better sound quality instead of comparable RMS levels...
Listen closely to what can be done by equalizing before compression.
Use stacked low or moderate compression in tracks->groups->master.
To achieve very low DR while still sounding "acceptable", some professional producers/producer groups use all kind of tricks - including the use of special arrangements on song writing level to make it possible. E.g. rhythmical shifting of the bass patterns.
(This way, some dance floor pop productions go down as low as DR5 - you actually lose the bass if you don't have this in mind at songwriting level already if you go for these silly levels).
Unfortunately, this is reality, there are artists and labels that explicitly urge this and refuse to accept a "too high" DR of 6. No joke...
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Post by svart on Nov 6, 2014 7:43:44 GMT -6
Use the Tischmeyer DR meter vst or similar as the last thing in the master tray while mixing to get a feel for reasonable DR for *your* mixes. Compare with your favorite commercial reference productions to see what you are aiming for, and how they did achieve their lower DR. Decide if it's worth it, or if you want to have better sound quality instead of comparable RMS levels... Listen closely to what can be done by equalizing before compression. Use stacked low or moderate compression in tracks->groups->master. To achieve very low DR while still sounding "acceptable", some professional producers/producer groups use all kind of tricks - including the use of special arrangements on song writing level to make it possible. E.g. rhythmical shifting of the bass patterns. (This way, some dance floor pop productions go down as low as DR5 - you actually lose the bass if you don't have this in mind at songwriting level already if you go for these silly levels). Unfortunately, this is reality, there are artists and labels that explicitly urge this and refuse to accept a "too high" DR of 6. No joke... One thing that isn't talked about much is the compression settings during mastering too. Longer attacks and shorter releases tend to make the bass and mid-bass come up in the mix. Changing the ratio and the threshold can make things rise and fall in the mix as well. When i do mixdowns I'm finding that my bass is barely audible, but getting the level up makes it sit better in the mix. I'm sure a good mastering engineer can work with these things pretty well, probably much better than I can! |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 6, 2014 8:23:50 GMT -6
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/the-other-side-of-town-9-26-14
I've mostly been posting demos, not mastering for CD.
I've tried to faux master, with the goal of getting close to levels of records I like in the same general style as mine, but have only been moderately successful.
lately, I've thrown in the towel and just crank my A.O.M Limiter as high as I can before it begins to sound crappy, using my ears, usually pumping up the volume around 6-7 db.
I don't have an DR software. Would one of you guys do me a favor and tell me what the DR is on one of my tracks?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 6, 2014 8:27:05 GMT -6
This is an old mix, I've fixed a few parts since then..
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 8:43:01 GMT -6
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Post by popmann on Nov 6, 2014 8:52:50 GMT -6
Honestly I think it's much harder to get a good sounding crushed recording than it is to get a double digit DR. I would agree. But, that's neither here not there because DR6 will never sound as good as DR12. This is why no one can get a Steely Dan or Eagles record past like DR8 or maybe 7 and it's garbage there. Because no one making those mixes ever considered the completely undo able amount of limiting digital brought. But, I would submit it's EVEN harder to make DR3 and a 128mp3 sound better. That inherently has no value because it's harder to do. That the flaw/assumption in that logic. Why not shoot for that? |
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Post by svart on Nov 6, 2014 9:22:26 GMT -6
Honestly I think it's much harder to get a good sounding crushed recording than it is to get a double digit DR. I would agree. But, that's neither here not there because DR6 will never sound as good as DR12. This is why no one can get a Steely Dan or Eagles record past like DR8 or maybe 7 and it's garbage there. Because no one making those mixes ever considered the completely undo able amount of limiting digital brought. But, I would submit it's EVEN harder to make DR3 and a 128mp3 sound better. That inherently has no value because it's harder to do. That the flaw/assumption in that logic. Why not shoot for that? You're right, it's neither here nor there, but also, the music from the bands you mention was never recorded in a way that would allow higher DR without considerable changes to the mix. I think it's probably completely do-able, and eventually it'll happen on future decadal "remastering" of those bands. However, I don't really care much about the debate. I think it's silly that people even argue about it when it's obvious that it's what the customer wants and needs. A few guys arguing about it on a forum won't sway the public opinion of millions of other consumers. I think single digit DR is here to stay, and we'll just figure out better ways to make the music sound better. After all, almost everything we do to tracks in a mix is to reduce the DR. Compression? Reduce DR. EQ? Makes tracks fit together better so you can reduce the DR. Automation? So you can make things fit together and reduce the DR. That's the life of the audio engineer, to reduce the DR of recorded audio to fit into a neat little package. I figure you're either on the single digit DR boat, or you're floating in the expansive DR ocean waiting for the SS Good Ol' Days to sail by and rescue you from drowning. While you're trying to keep from drowning, I'm going to be in the ship's bar picking up women. And DR of 2 or 3? We already do that. There are some nifty military compression techniques that combine super low DR with pitch so they can transmit with very small amounts of data. As for audio, if DR 2 or 3 sounded good, it'll probably happen. Maybe someday they'll have the technology to do it, but as of yet, I haven't heard of anyone getting beyond DR4 or so, but ten years ago, nobody could get above 8 without serious problems. |
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Post by ephi82 on Nov 6, 2014 9:53:36 GMT -6
I dont know. I really think that there's an opportunity for music consumers to appreciate recordings with greater DR.
The whole loudness war has been driven by the record companies and artists to enhance and capture the first impression of the listener. Yes, humans tend to react favorably to music that is louder than other music, but its a short term thing until the fatigue sets in.
I think the popularization of PONO could introduce many consumers to music with more DR. At least I hope PONO does.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 6, 2014 10:03:32 GMT -6
After playing modern rock music for a few years, I understand the single digit DR push. If my band had our music mastered and it came back as a DR12, that would be a problem. I hate to say it, but sonics be damned, you gotta be competitive.
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Post by svart on Nov 6, 2014 10:08:41 GMT -6
Maybe I'm just weird somehow, but I like low DR recordings when they are done well. I don't get ear fatigue from it at all. What I do get fatigue from is poor mixing that leaves fatiguing frequencies in the mix.
I'm pretty sure that it's the struggle to be bright and clear that makes modern mixes fatiguing, not lack of dynamic range.
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 6, 2014 10:23:54 GMT -6
I've released CD's commercially without any compression. Usually that is jazz or acoustic stuff. Not everything sounds acceptable without a natural dynamic range.
Modern rock/pop is also very dense music, no holes anymore. Add a fuzz tone strummed guitar and there is no space to place another instrument. It's a drone these days when that arrangement is brick-walled.
A dense arrangement is in need of more dynamic range, not less.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 6, 2014 10:32:05 GMT -6
Thanks forth sat smallbutfine, I'll check that in my next session.
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Post by ephi82 on Nov 6, 2014 11:38:36 GMT -6
After playing modern rock music for a few years, I understand the single digit DR push. If my band had our music mastered and it came back as a DR12, that would be a problem. I hate to say it, but sonics be damned, you gotta be competitive. I'm curious. What is the typical DR of you band's mastered material? If you listen to your stereo mix (pre master), on your home or car stereo do you think it sounds good? do you say to yourself "This has got to be a crap load louder and tighter!" |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 6, 2014 11:54:11 GMT -6
After playing modern rock music for a few years, I understand the single digit DR push. If my band had our music mastered and it came back as a DR12, that would be a problem. I hate to say it, but sonics be damned, you gotta be competitive. I'm curious. What is the typical DR of you band's mastered material? If you listen to your stereo mix (pre master), on your home or car stereo do you think it sounds good? do you say to yourself "This has got to be a crap load louder and tighter!" We never ended up releasing a full EP or getting anything mastered, but here is a track I did. m.soundcloud.com/jessecoutu/58-trans-cardiaYes, louder and tighter would have been necessary for the type of stuff we did, IMO. |
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Post by popmann on Nov 6, 2014 12:22:10 GMT -6
Hey--related note....anyone know of a real time or offline Soundcheck algo "check"? I've been intrigued by Katz's latest (post iTunes11) algo--because it doesn't map directly to the DR....but, is quite effective--and I think would yield a little more fine tuned real world loudness analysis, because it takes more pyschoacoustic stuff into account...I can import two of the same DR and get quite a bit a variance in Soundcheck volume offsets. Even different masters of the same recording. Once offset, there's less difference....but, the fact there is IS such a Soundcheck offset may speak to the things people actually prefer.
I remember there was a company that did the real time AAC encoding for iTunes mastering....who was that? Does it also register Soundcheck offset levels?
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Post by ephi82 on Nov 6, 2014 12:33:36 GMT -6
I'm curious. What is the typical DR of you band's mastered material? If you listen to your stereo mix (pre master), on your home or car stereo do you think it sounds good? do you say to yourself "This has got to be a crap load louder and tighter!" We never ended up releasing a full EP or getting anything mastered, but here is a track I did. m.soundcloud.com/jessecoutu/58-trans-cardiaYes, louder and tighter would have been necessary for the type of stuff we did, IMO. I like it. The song's arrangement has a lot of dynamics in it that I would hate to see you lose. I can see that you would want it to be tighter and louder, but I would bet you could get a long way there with some mix adjustments and some 2 buss compression? |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 6, 2014 13:32:29 GMT -6
We never ended up releasing a full EP or getting anything mastered, but here is a track I did. m.soundcloud.com/jessecoutu/58-trans-cardiaYes, louder and tighter would have been necessary for the type of stuff we did, IMO. I like it. The song's arrangement has a lot of dynamics in it that I would hate to see you lose. I can see that you would want it to be tighter and louder, but I would bet you could get a long way there with some mix adjustments and some 2 buss compression? I agree that some mixing adjustments and a bit of compression would tighten it up, but to be competitive stylistically, it would need to have a sub double digit DR. For example, both TREOS albums here from the same period are DR7. dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=The%20Receiving%20End%20of%20SirensIf we came in at 12-14, it just would lack the necessary loudness to be contemporary. It's not that I would be looking to be louder, just in the vicinity of our peers. |
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