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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 13:49:21 GMT -6
Hey--related note....anyone know of a real time or offline Soundcheck algo "check"? I've been intrigued by Katz's latest (post iTunes11) algo--because it doesn't map directly to the DR....but, is quite effective--and I think would yield a little more fine tuned real world loudness analysis, because it takes more pyschoacoustic stuff into account...I can import two of the same DR and get quite a bit a variance in Soundcheck volume offsets. Even different masters of the same recording. Once offset, there's less difference....but, the fact there is IS such a Soundcheck offset may speak to the things people actually prefer. I remember there was a company that did the real time AAC encoding for iTunes mastering....who was that? Does it also register Soundcheck offset levels? Hi pop, i guess you are talking about the Fraunhofer-Sonnox realtime encoder. No word about Soundcheck though... www.sonnoxplugins.com/pub/plugins/products/pro-codec.htmBR, Martin |
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Post by ephi82 on Nov 6, 2014 14:09:30 GMT -6
I like it. The song's arrangement has a lot of dynamics in it that I would hate to see you lose. I can see that you would want it to be tighter and louder, but I would bet you could get a long way there with some mix adjustments and some 2 buss compression? I agree that some mixing adjustments and a bit of compression would tighten it up, but to be competitive stylistically, it would need to have a sub double digit DR. For example, both TREOS albums here from the same period are DR7. dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=The%20Receiving%20End%20of%20SirensIf we came in at 12-14, it just would lack the necessary loudness to be contemporary. It's not that I would be looking to be louder, just in the vicinity of our peers. I fully get it now! Single digit DR is not just about loudness now!!!!!! The "sound" of brickwalled/hyper compressed music is what is "in style" and you have to meet that expectation! It's interesting, I heard the play back of some urban music recently on my home stereo ( I am not sure what the genre was, probably Rap) What was cool about it is all the songs sounded like they were being played back on a car stereo with huge sub woofers in the trunk. It was like the car was sitting in my living room. Right down to being able to hear the body panels rattle. So, this "sound" now has become a "style" to be expected for certain listeners! |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 6, 2014 14:31:53 GMT -6
I would agree. But, that's neither here not there because DR6 will never sound as good as DR12. This is why no one can get a Steely Dan or Eagles record past like DR8 or maybe 7 and it's garbage there. Because no one making those mixes ever considered the completely undo able amount of limiting digital brought. But, I would submit it's EVEN harder to make DR3 and a 128mp3 sound better. That inherently has no value because it's harder to do. That the flaw/assumption in that logic. Why not shoot for that? You're right, it's neither here nor there, but also, the music from the bands you mention was never recorded in a way that would allow higher DR without considerable changes to the mix. I think it's probably completely do-able, and eventually it'll happen on future decadal "remastering" of those bands. However, I don't really care much about the debate. I think it's silly that people even argue about it when it's obvious that it's what the customer wants and needs. A few guys arguing about it on a forum won't sway the public opinion of millions of other consumers.I think single digit DR is here to stay, and we'll just figure out better ways to make the music sound better. After all, almost everything we do to tracks in a mix is to reduce the DR. Compression? Reduce DR. EQ? Makes tracks fit together better so you can reduce the DR. Automation? So you can make things fit together and reduce the DR. That's the life of the audio engineer, to reduce the DR of recorded audio to fit into a neat little package.I figure you're either on the single digit DR boat, or you're floating in the expansive DR ocean waiting for the SS Good Ol' Days to sail by and rescue you from drowning. While you're trying to keep from drowning, I'm going to be in the ship's bar picking up women.And DR of 2 or 3? We already do that. There are some nifty military compression techniques that combine super low DR with pitch so they can transmit with very small amounts of data. As for audio, if DR 2 or 3 sounded good, it'll probably happen. Maybe someday they'll have the technology to do it, but as of yet, I haven't heard of anyone getting beyond DR4 or so, but ten years ago, nobody could get above 8 without serious problems.
the job of a good engineer is take full advantage of all the available DR in any medium.
consumer level audio equipment is on an upward quality curve, when given a choice, people actually do give a shit about the quality of mediums(hows your 480 tube tv doing these days?), I just picked up damn good sounding headphones for $19!!! Hi rez/HD tracks gets more popular by the day. I am always trying to learn, and I am no ME, but MO as of now, besides the -0.1 ceiling, the biggest consideration when it comes to shrinking dynamic range is the noise floor in the final listening environment, this following the leader off the "competitive" cliff seems utter BS to me, the final listener generally has a F-ing volume knob, and the song's appeal will certainly dictate the level at which it is listened to! Also, imv, the "proper" use of compression ADDS, and can exaggerate musical dynamics within your available window, it shouldn't take them away. It still matters what we do as AE's, if it didn't, everything would sound top tier, which it certainly does NOT, in the meantime, i keep practicing 8) |
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Post by popmann on Nov 6, 2014 14:37:51 GMT -6
Re: "peers"....one of the reasons I left the little studio in the 90s is because in the 90s, amateur artists wanted to sound like the 1980s recordings to sound "contemporary".
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 6, 2014 14:47:46 GMT -6
the day artists decide the most important thing is to make quality recordings that are true to themselves and original, is the day we'll all be enjoying tons of great music again, that day will also probably be the day i die 8)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 15:06:46 GMT -6
tonycamphd, from the multicolor post i got the vague idea that you do not particularly recommend dynamic ranges of much less than 4 before the final premaster? Just want to make sure i didn't misinterpret you. 
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 6, 2014 15:09:37 GMT -6
I would venture to say that most consumers listening to music are listening passively. Background music at work, music at parties, music when you have people over, etc. Having to go over and play with the volume knob everyone a song changes isn't something that most people want to deal with. Or having to turn up for softer passages, not gonna happen.
For the majority of people consuming and how they're doing it, lower DR is better.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 6, 2014 15:52:38 GMT -6
I really like fighting the master compressor and limiter with drum transients. I like to get things pumping a bit kind of like a Daft Punk record, it sounds cool and people have told me they like it. It's still dynamic and punchy in a way, it can even sound explosive, while being loud, and compressed. I also agree that the envelope settings can really affect the tonality and EQ of the mix, so some time is required in setting those as well. PSP Xenon has a cool thing, a 3 setting transient section, to control the character of the compression from pumpy to even. Pro-L has the attack and release, as well as "character" settings. Brainworx XL has a bunch of mid side and harmonic overdrive stuff that can be really useful. And the SSL compressor comes in too, when you want to sound like Andy Wallace or whatever. And Sonnox Inflator to eek out a tiny bit more loudness. Plenty of tools to get the job done in different fashions as needed.
I also agree that a loud master is kind of the sound of now. I also think a pure digital mix is a thing people are now accustomed to and might even prefer, or at least not dislike. I know I personally have gotten used to both things, even though I still retain a slight vintage and analog fetish.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 6, 2014 16:04:05 GMT -6
I would venture to say that most consumers listening to music are listening passively. Background music at work, music at parties, music when you have people over, etc. Having to go over and play with the volume knob everyone a song changes isn't something that most people want to deal with. Or having to turn up for softer passages, not gonna happen. For the majority of people consuming and how they're doing it, lower DR is better. most services are starting to go with level control systems anyway, so loudness wars goodbye 8) |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 6, 2014 16:10:28 GMT -6
I would venture to say that most consumers listening to music are listening passively. Background music at work, music at parties, music when you have people over, etc. Having to go over and play with the volume knob everyone a song changes isn't something that most people want to deal with. Or having to turn up for softer passages, not gonna happen. For the majority of people consuming and how they're doing it, lower DR is better. most services are starting to go with level control systems anyway, so loudness wars goodbye 8) What are level control systems? Anyway, I'd prefer for everything to be a uniform DR10 or something, but going from a DR7 track to a DR14 track just doesn't work. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 6, 2014 16:15:16 GMT -6
most services are starting to go with level control systems anyway, so loudness wars goodbye 8) What are level control systems? Anyway, I'd prefer for everything to be a uniform DR10 or something, but going from a DR7 track to a DR14 track just doesn't work. |
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 7, 2014 9:43:41 GMT -6
I would venture to say that most consumers listening to music are listening passively. Background music at work, music at parties, music when you have people over, etc. Having to go over and play with the volume knob everyone a song changes isn't something that most people want to deal with. Or having to turn up for softer passages, not gonna happen. For the majority of people consuming and how they're doing it, lower DR is better. Long gone are the days you would bring home a fresh, new disc of "Dull Side of the Spoon", turn on the black lights and lava lamps, slide back into a bean-bag chair with a pair of Koss 4-A headphones, light up a joint and "sink into the music". It's all background today, for good reason. There isn't enough depth today in music to sink into anything but boredom. Try and sit an 18 year old down with some cans and get them to sit quietly and listen to an entire song, they can't do it. 20 seconds in they will be figity and reaching for their smart phone. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 7, 2014 11:37:18 GMT -6
I would venture to say that most consumers listening to music are listening passively. Background music at work, music at parties, music when you have people over, etc. Having to go over and play with the volume knob everyone a song changes isn't something that most people want to deal with. Or having to turn up for softer passages, not gonna happen. For the majority of people consuming and how they're doing it, lower DR is better. Long gone are the days you would bring home a fresh, new disc of "Dull Side of the Spoon", turn on the black lights and lava lamps, slide back into a bean-bag chair with a pair of Koss 4-A headphones, light up a joint and "sink into the music". It's all background today, for good reason. There isn't enough depth today in music to sink into anything but boredom.Try and sit an 18 year old down with some cans and get them to sit quietly and listen to an entire song, they can't do it. 20 seconds in they will be figity and reaching for their smart phone. Nail, meet hammer! I know i'm old and un hip(thank god), i'll be dead soon and i won't remember any of this 8) But you young guys will have to put up with the music turds being flung by your generation for the next 50-60 years, i ducked most of that, and consider myself lucky 8) TBC, just smart assing fun here 8) |
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