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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 5, 2014 10:08:10 GMT -6
Why do people pay so much for something that sounds so bad? Even my TV hurts my ears now. So, what would you say sounds better? Radar, HD24XR, analog tape, or anything else without an AVID sticker on it. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 5, 2014 10:14:58 GMT -6
FWIW all of Avid's current hardware was designed by people from Euphonix and Apogee.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 5, 2014 10:15:14 GMT -6
Well...that's kind of unobtainable for home use for most of us...
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 5, 2014 10:20:57 GMT -6
FWIW all of Avid's current hardware was designed by people from Euphonix and Apogee. This can't be good.... Right Bob? It makes them sound like outsource brokering middlemen, the new "support" plans make them sound like used car salesmen... |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 5, 2014 16:42:07 GMT -6
They now own Euphonix and employ some former Apogee people! How is that not good? Obviously they are moving up-market. Euphonix made some of the best sounding converters I ever heard..
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 5, 2014 16:52:44 GMT -6
They now own Euphonix and employ some former Apogee people! How is that not good? Obviously they are moving up-market. Euphonix made some of the best sounding converters I ever heard.. my bad Bob, judging by their recent track record, i interpreted it like they could no longer handle things in house, thats why i added the "right Bob?". I still think this whole thing is ridiculous, how do you release undefined products, with a "you have till the end of the year" deadline threat tied to it? it's indeed lame, I personally was never too psyched on apogee either. |
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Post by WKG on Nov 5, 2014 16:55:02 GMT -6
I have never needed Avid support for my system so that is completely useless to me. I have always paid for upgrades and I understand a cost incurred for a quality version upgrade.
The problem is this will hit me at $599 on an annual, ongoing basis with no certainty of any quality version upgrades. It is clear Avid is simply looking for ways to shear the dumb sheep (customers). The fact that as a PT11 owner already I get to pay an additional $599 for the "privilege" of a possibility of an useful upgrade and useless support is an absolute insult.
Won't you just wait until PT12 comes along then pay the $599 upgrade then and have a year of support starting then? If you've been running 11 and haven't needed support, why pay for the support plan before a new version comes out. Isn't this just a way for Avid to charge an extra $200 or whatever for their software without getting slammed for not adding anything? If there is a PT12 and if it is an upgrade I need then that might be an option, if it's within the time frame the new "support" plan is available - 2015. To just cough up $599 for the promise that "if" an upgrade is available I can get it is ludicrous. Add to that the fact that everyone who took the chance supporting Avid and previously paid $599 to upgrade to PT11HD is penalized another $599 while those who waited get a 50% discount.
I don't mind supporting the companies who create the tools we use but Avid has lost their minds.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,099 
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Post by ericn on Nov 5, 2014 18:06:36 GMT -6
AVID vues HD as enterprise software, if your a commercial facility a support plan is a must have, my wife who just wrote her depts budget looks at a $700 support plan as nothing!
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 5, 2014 18:18:19 GMT -6
Won't you just wait until PT12 comes along then pay the $599 upgrade then and have a year of support starting then? If you've been running 11 and haven't needed support, why pay for the support plan before a new version comes out. Isn't this just a way for Avid to charge an extra $200 or whatever for their software without getting slammed for not adding anything? If there is a PT12 and if it is an upgrade I need then that might be an option, if it's within the time frame the new "support" plan is available - 2015. To just cough up $599 for the promise that "if" an upgrade is available I can get it is ludicrous. Add to that the fact that everyone who took the chance supporting Avid and previously paid $599 to upgrade to PT11HD is penalized another $599 while those who waited get a 50% discount.
I don't mind supporting the companies who create the tools we use but Avid has lost their minds.
I guess what I'm confused about is the upgrade cost after 2015 if I don't have a support plan. Are they just going to say that I can't upgrade? This 2015 deadline is the real issue right? |
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Post by WKG on Nov 5, 2014 18:54:56 GMT -6
AVID vues HD as enterprise software, if your a commercial facility a support plan is a must have, my wife who just wrote her depts budget looks at a $700 support plan as nothing!
Apparently Avid views commercial facilities as fatter sheep to be sheared. 
I am not a full time commercial facility though at some point I would like to be. I came to HD from the CPTK & PT10 upgrade when it was discontinued upon the PT11 release. I have been building my system and learning as much as I can as I grow. I do not need their support plan and $599 is not the end of my world but it's not just a few nickels either.
One of the issues I have is Avid's constant moving of the goal posts and schemes to squeeze a few more dollars out of what have been relatively loyal customers. It reeks of bad management trying to fix the problems of prior bad management with no end in sight. For me that crosses a line as to where I want my support money to go. Granted, compared to large commercial facilities I am less than a fraction of a drop in the bucket as far as revenue goes but I think there are larger issues relating to the ethical fiber of the company at work here. It certainly affects smaller/mid sized folks and hobbyists and at some point it will certainly begin to affect their "fatter sheep" as well IMO.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 5, 2014 22:50:53 GMT -6
Can you name even one other DAW developer who issues free bug fix updates for older versions they are no longer selling?
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 6, 2014 10:29:45 GMT -6
Free fixes for a defective product? Isn't that what GM does? PT won't kill you, but it will kill your music.
In 50 years this era will be remembered for a being a very bad time for recorded music, a time when everyone thought they were an exceptional artist with something important to say. A time when the sound of the recorded music will be questioned for it's hardware selection and use. An era with a lot of forgetable music and some memorable, but impossible to fully enjoy due to the technical limitations and errors.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 11:16:55 GMT -6
Can you name even one other DAW developer who issues free bug fix updates for older versions they are no longer selling? No. This is actually the reason why i skip sometimes several "new versions" of my DAW to wait for one that fixes most of the previous sometimes long term non-fixed most annoying bugs without introducing too much "new features". This is the most annoying thing about most digital workstations for me in general...advertized functionality that is faulty and not fixed for several versions of the software. Making the customer a paying long-term beta tester of unfinished products... Therefore i can understand Jim's point of view...i guess i hear a clear kind of bitterness in his last posts.... Many users seem to have a religious kind of relationship with their DAW of choice (and OS platform) and defend it as hard as they can. Even more so, the more expensive it was. Even if there are no rational points to justify this.... That said, sound quality and handling quality of the DAWs has become much better over the last decade, maybe due to more competition on the market and customers more open to platform changes...IMHO |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 6, 2014 16:14:26 GMT -6
To me Pro Tools is simply the lesser of many evils. I think music has got some great big problems but when I ask myself "what's changed since the 1960s?" the elephant in the room is always that talented youngsters can no longer earn a living from playing music full time. Record labels can't change that nor can going back to analog recording. It broke my heart to learn the entertainment for my daughter's high school prom was a DJ.
We can only change that at the grass roots.
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 7, 2014 9:58:49 GMT -6
You have a perfect storm of a collapsed record biz, an abandonment of arts and music in schools, a lack of interest in learning the craft of music by the youngin's and a plethera of hand holding poor sounding digital hardware many have become totally dependent on.
No wonder modern music sounds like crap, there's no "there" there.
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Post by svart on Nov 7, 2014 10:26:03 GMT -6
Upgrading Reaper...
Step one: Download new version.
Step two: Install over old version.
Step three: Use it.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 7, 2014 10:48:22 GMT -6
Upgrading Reaper... Step one: Download new version. Step two: Install over old version. Step three: Use it..... ...... by yourself because you're the only one who does, everyone else uses PT 8)  |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 7, 2014 10:52:09 GMT -6
You have a perfect storm of a collapsed record biz, an abandonment of arts and music in schools, a lack of interest in learning the craft of music by the youngin's and a plethera of hand holding poor sounding digital hardware many have become totally dependent on. No wonder modern music sounds like crap, there's no "there" there. Jims right though... lol |
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Post by scumbum on Nov 7, 2014 11:12:54 GMT -6
Free fixes for a defective product? Isn't that what GM does? PT won't kill you, but it will kill your music. I'm sorry but this is untrue.......if you throw a PT installation disc very hard like a frisbee at someone's neck hitting their atoms Apple you could kill someone . So PT will kill your music and if your not careful can actually kill you as well . |
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Post by scumbum on Nov 7, 2014 11:17:19 GMT -6
Upgrading Reaper... Step one: Download new version. Step two: Install over old version. Step three: Use it. This is true . Reaper is about as easy as it gets to install and get working and I want to start using it , BUT after 10 minutes of trying to figure out how to do something in it I get frustrated and go right back to PT . Damn PT why do you have to be so easy to use !! |
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Post by svart on Nov 7, 2014 11:28:52 GMT -6
Upgrading Reaper... Step one: Download new version. Step two: Install over old version. Step three: Use it. This is true . Reaper is about as easy as it gets to install and get working and I want to start using it , BUT after 10 minutes of trying to figure out how to do something in it I get frustrated and go right back to PT . Damn PT why do you have to be so easy to use !! Heh, i think the opposite is true! I find PT frustrating to use and reaper intuitive. Go figure. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 7, 2014 11:40:03 GMT -6
This is true . Reaper is about as easy as it gets to install and get working and I want to start using it , BUT after 10 minutes of trying to figure out how to do something in it I get frustrated and go right back to PT . Damn PT why do you have to be so easy to use !! Heh, i think the opposite is true! I find PT frustrating to use and reaper intuitive. Go figure. I find that most guys stick with what they start with, it's all about what ever gets you through the night. Ya know what would get me through the night? a really badarse stereo pair of ADDA's  |
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Post by svart on Nov 7, 2014 12:19:59 GMT -6
Heh, i think the opposite is true! I find PT frustrating to use and reaper intuitive. Go figure. I find that most guys stick with what they start with, it's all about what ever gets you through the night. Ya know what would get me through the night? a really badarse stereo pair of ADDA's Actually i started with Cubase (which I hated from the start) and then went to a program called N-track for a while, then to PT then to reaper.. i think i averaged about 1 a year for the first few years until settling on reaper. And yeah, progress is being made.. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,099
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Post by ericn on Nov 7, 2014 12:31:06 GMT -6
I really like Reaper,
But the low latency, and almost universal acceptance of HD make it a no brainer. 70% percent of my clients could care less but the 30 % who do want PT most HD and they pay my bills!
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Post by scumbum on Nov 7, 2014 13:51:32 GMT -6
Well...that's kind of unobtainable for home use for most of us... If your talking about the Jim Williams (old school) method its actually easier for home studios theses days , well not the tape . It's just using any digital device , any daw and doing no digital processing or very minimal , leave faders at unity , and mixing on an analog mixer with outboard . The outboard and mixer don't have to be expensive . It's not just summing , it's all gain changes , panning , fader movements are in the analog world . Pro studios have a harder time working this way these days because of instant recall and Time constraints . If there's low budgets , not much time to mix , then that's when then DAW needs to be used . Home studios have the luxury of working slow and leaving the mixer all set up until they get their song done . A basic Mackie Onyx sounds better than just mixing in PT . |
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