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Post by scumbum on Oct 19, 2014 21:00:28 GMT -6
Thanks to Dr bill , leave it to the grand master to figure it out !
It was the Sony Oxford Reverb I had on the drums .
I did the test like Dr bill suggested , remove all plugins , remove everything and only pan LCR and put all faders at unity . That nulled .
So then I went back to the original mix that didn't null and just muted the Sony Reverb and now it nulls .
So my only guess is that with every bounce The Sony Reverb reacts differently ??
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Post by drbill on Oct 19, 2014 21:05:02 GMT -6
Thanks to Dr bill , leave it to the grand master to figure it out ! It was the Sony Oxford Reverb I had on the drums . I did the test like Dr bill suggested , remove all plugins , remove everything and only pan LCR and put all faders at unity . That nulled . So then I went back to the original mix that didn't null and just muted the Sony Reverb and now it nulls . So my only guess is that with every bounce The Sony Reverb reacts differently ?? Well.....there ya have it. Proper testing protocol, and the numbers add up the same. Well, usually...... :-) And yeah, any time based effects like verb or even delays will act a little different every time. Even automation can lag in a heavy session, causing a null to not happen correctly. Aaaaaaaannnnnd,,,,,,another audio legend debunked.  But.....the real question is....why did you think the mix without master fader sounded significantly different (better). :-) Don't let that bum you out though. If you THINK it sounds better, it IS better and you will be more creative and rise to the occasion. Even if they null. Which they won't because you will do a better mix without master faders IF (if in fact you do, which I'm not sure at this point) you believe it. That's why online mic clips are only vague indicators IMO. If you LIKE a crappy mic over a great one, it is the best mic for YOU because you believe it to be the best for you. If something is working for me, I don't care what anybody says. I'm making music....,.,. |
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Post by scumbum on Oct 19, 2014 21:43:40 GMT -6
Thanks to Dr bill , leave it to the grand master to figure it out ! It was the Sony Oxford Reverb I had on the drums . I did the test like Dr bill suggested , remove all plugins , remove everything and only pan LCR and put all faders at unity . That nulled . So then I went back to the original mix that didn't null and just muted the Sony Reverb and now it nulls . So my only guess is that with every bounce The Sony Reverb reacts differently ?? Well.....there ya have it. Proper testing protocol, and the numbers add up the same. Well, usually...... :-) And yeah, any time based effects like verb or even delays will act a little different every time. Even automation can lag in a heavy session, causing a null to not happen correctly. Aaaaaaaannnnnd,,,,,,another audio legend debunked. But.....the real question is....why did you think the mix without master fader sounded significantly different (better). :-) Don't let that bum you out though. If you THINK it sounds better, it IS better and you will be more creative and rise to the occasion. Even if they null. Which they won't because you will do a better mix without master faders IF (if in fact you do, which I'm not sure at this point) you believe it. That's why online mic clips are only vague indicators IMO. If you LIKE a crappy mic over a great one, it is the best mic for YOU because you believe it to be the best for you. If something is working for me, I don't care what anybody says. I'm making music....,.,. I was thinking the same thing , well then why did I think the bounce without the master fader sounded better ? Well it wasn't better just different ? Just like when you compare gear , if its 0.4 dbs different you'll pick the louder one as better . I'm not bummed but relieved . Now I can mix with a master fader and not worry about the Daw's summing doing something weird to the audio . The more DAWs are proven reliable the better , it's a hell of a lot cheaper than going all OTB , |
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Post by scumbum on Oct 19, 2014 21:47:54 GMT -6
Oh yeah another thing , when you flip the phase of a mix it changes the way the speakers respond right ? Maybe with the phase flipped on one mix it actually sounds better ?
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Post by formatcyes on Oct 20, 2014 0:26:26 GMT -6
This would be really surprising if its true and point towards very very bad coding in PT. Cannot see how they would have got this wrong.
I cannot hear any difference on mine.
What software to you guys use to do null tests?
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 20, 2014 8:24:13 GMT -6
On the subject of audio myths.... I recently had a very respectable mastering engineer of 25+ years experience tell me that cubase 7 had a vastly improved summing engine vs cubase 6, and his (high end) studio dropped analog summing after the switch. Said they did a lot of AB comparisons and were really surprised how noticeable the difference was..... I told him that was hard to believe based on all of the jibber jabber I'd read on forums. But it does make me want to try cubase 7 (being a user of 6 right now).
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Post by jimwilliams on Oct 20, 2014 8:54:18 GMT -6
Once a respected mastering AE told me to stay away from Pro Tools. My ears told me he was right.
I followed his advice.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 20, 2014 9:11:12 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 20, 2014 9:21:17 GMT -6
wow, this thread really turned south, Scum asked a legit Q, He couldn't get a master fader bounce and a - master fader bounce to null, does anyone have a good (not smart ass) answer for that? @jordanvoth, i appreciate you saying you weren't trying to dis, but the thing is, it's a thread that you are not required to participate in if you have nothing positive to contribute, right? So if you're bored by the content, then why bother? Honestly, reading guys saying "it's the performance/song/mic placement" or "gear doesn't matter" on a GEAR FORUM! is unbelievable? Ya know what else is tiring? when guys repeatedly try to protect their paradigm by call things they may not hear or don't understand BS, in the face of guys that do or have the audacity to inquire, this is just another form of defensive confirmation bias. I digress, there are a lot of seriously great engineers who realize the results of what they achieve are contingent upon the sum of thousands of small things, thats why they mix in beastly outfitted studios, or strive to improve their own gear until satisfied, they get that every single piece counts in conjunction with the skill of application(the song/performance/competent tracking in a great room are simply assumed). The undesired effect of what great engineers complain about when mixing ITB is commonly referred to as "digititus" (for lack of a technical answer, or better term), i've heard many of them say this, and most of them hybrid up, and use consoles and hardware because of it, I'm certainly not putting myself in their company, but I can honestly say i've NEVER been satisfied with a single ITB mix i've done, because i personally CAN HEAR that over edgy, disconnected "digititus" effect, i also hear that effect accumulate in direct correlation to more tracks and plugs getting used ITB, perhaps this is what scum is hearing? My dissatisfaction with this phenomenon along with latency is why i'm putting forth a long laborious effort, and obnoxious expense to move primarily OTB, but hey, i guess i could be full of BS 8) I guess people - including myself - are just reacting to the "misdirection of time and energy" that is spent chasing things like these. I mean - if it happened to have been true, it would have been a good thing to know, right? So - it's a topic designed for a pro audio board. I am only speaking for myself, but at this point I've found that focusing on that kind of minutiae (that's not meant as a diss) paralyzes me. I get so caught up in what something sounds like, I don't spend time writing and performing anything to sound like anything...but again, that's just me. I guess the trick will be for everyone to remain respectful even when a thread isn't particularly their cup of tea. |
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Post by scumbum on Oct 20, 2014 9:43:58 GMT -6
wow, this thread really turned south, Scum asked a legit Q, He couldn't get a master fader bounce and a - master fader bounce to null, does anyone have a good (not smart ass) answer for that? @jordanvoth, i appreciate you saying you weren't trying to dis, but the thing is, it's a thread that you are not required to participate in if you have nothing positive to contribute, right? So if you're bored by the content, then why bother? Honestly, reading guys saying "it's the performance/song/mic placement" or "gear doesn't matter" on a GEAR FORUM! is unbelievable? Ya know what else is tiring? when guys repeatedly try to protect their paradigm by call things they may not hear or don't understand BS, in the face of guys that do or have the audacity to inquire, this is just another form of defensive confirmation bias. I digress, there are a lot of seriously great engineers who realize the results of what they achieve are contingent upon the sum of thousands of small things, thats why they mix in beastly outfitted studios, or strive to improve their own gear until satisfied, they get that every single piece counts in conjunction with the skill of application(the song/performance/competent tracking in a great room are simply assumed). The undesired effect of what great engineers complain about when mixing ITB is commonly referred to as "digititus" (for lack of a technical answer, or better term), i've heard many of them say this, and most of them hybrid up, and use consoles and hardware because of it, I'm certainly not putting myself in their company, but I can honestly say i've NEVER been satisfied with a single ITB mix i've done, because i personally CAN HEAR that over edgy, disconnected "digititus" effect, i also hear that effect accumulate in direct correlation to more tracks and plugs getting used ITB, perhaps this is what scum is hearing? My dissatisfaction with this phenomenon along with latency is why i'm putting forth a long laborious effort, and obnoxious expense to move primarily OTB, but hey, i guess i could be full of BS 8) I guess people - including myself - are just reacting to the "misdirection of time and energy" that is spent chasing things like these. I mean - if it happened to have been true, it would have been a good thing to know, right? So - it's a topic designed for a pro audio board. I am only speaking for myself, but at this point I've found that focusing on that kind of minutiae (that's not meant as a diss) paralyzes me. I get so caught up in what something sounds like, I don't spend time writing and performing anything to sound like anything...but again, that's just me. I guess the trick will be for everyone to remain respectful even when a thread isn't particularly their cup of tea. Yes I agree the time spent chasing things like this takes away from actually making music and one of the reasons I've been staying away from the internet and forums . SOOOO much time wasted when I could have written or worked on a song . But like in this instance , when a Mastering Engineer with years of experience speaks I listen . Maybe I just learned don't even trust a Mastering Engineer , even they can be full of BS just like audio forums . |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 20, 2014 9:52:28 GMT -6
Oh yeah another thing , when you flip the phase of a mix it changes the way the speakers respond right ? Maybe with the phase flipped on one mix it actually sounds better ? This is true because microphones, loudspeakers and our ears all don't have symmetrical response! |
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Post by scumbum on Oct 20, 2014 9:57:31 GMT -6
This would be really surprising if its true and point towards very very bad coding in PT. Cannot see how they would have got this wrong. I cannot hear any difference on mine. What software to you guys use to do null tests? I use Pro Tools to do the null test . Import the two bounces and then stick a trim plugin on one of the bounces and flip the phase . As drbill pointed out , with effects and automation , no two mixes are exactly the same . Drums fills with reverb for example can sound a little bigger , different between the two mixes . Vocals with delay and verb can jump out a little more on certain words . |
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Post by drbill on Oct 20, 2014 9:58:16 GMT -6
but again, that's just me. Nope. Not just you. In the big picture, this stuff is a creative misdirect. |
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Post by drbill on Oct 20, 2014 9:59:53 GMT -6
Once a respected mastering AE told me to stay away from Pro Tools. My ears told me he was right. I followed his advice. Once upon a time, a trusted mentor told me to stay out of the music business. I thought about it and my brain told me he was right. So glad I didn't listen to him and followed my heart. Same follows for pro tools. Couldn't live without it. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 20, 2014 10:00:27 GMT -6
Once a respected mastering AE told me to stay away from Pro Tools. My ears told me he was right. I followed his advice. It was really bad in the early daze but you still need to know how to use dither today. It's no different than knowing how to employ chips so they don't sound bad. "Better sounding" DAWs are just somewhat more idiot-proof. |
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Post by scumbum on Oct 20, 2014 10:09:23 GMT -6
Oh yeah another thing , when you flip the phase of a mix it changes the way the speakers respond right ? Maybe with the phase flipped on one mix it actually sounds better ? This is true because microphones, loudspeakers and our ears all don't have symmetrical response! Wow , theres so many little variables in recording its crazy . On that ME's website I was reading about the phase of the kick for example . If you look at the waveform and the first part of the waveform is going down , that means the speaker is moving backwards to produce the sound . If you flip the phase so now the first part of the waveform is up the speaker is moving forward to produce the sound which gives more punch . I think thats the big difference I was hearing between my two mixes . Now thats not a myth right ?? |
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Post by drbill on Oct 20, 2014 10:18:35 GMT -6
No - not a myth. But you need to make sure that the ABSOLLUTE phase of your system - DAW, Tape Machines, Amps, Patchbay, etc. is in correct phase. i.e.: a positive going waveform PUSHES your speaker instead of pulls it.
An easy way to check this is to take a kick drum sample. Put it in your DAW, make sure it has positive (i.e.: going up instead of down as you mentioned) and route it to a small bookshelf speaker. Place the speaker flat on it's back and put a penny or a nickel on the dust cover of the speaker. Play the sample and note how high the penny jumps. Now, reverse phase and repeat. The penny should jump higher on a positive going waveform. If it doesn't you may be "in phase" in your DAW, but have absolute phase reversed somewhere down the line. (Patchbay, cabling, Pin2 vs. pin3 gear, etc.)
In a poorly designed system, you could be in phase in your DAW, out of phase with cable, out of phase on patch bay thusly putting you back INTO proper absolute phase by the time you get to your speakers -- BUT, even though your speakers are in "proper" phase, you WILL have problems as you patch things in and go about daily production. Every element needs to be in absolute positive phase in your system.
It's very important to have phase correct at each stage of wiring / interface and you have to go segment by segment to check it.
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Post by matt on Oct 20, 2014 10:24:49 GMT -6
Place the speaker flat on it's back and put a penny or a nickel on the dust cover of the speaker. Who says loose change has no value! Great idea. |
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Post by drbill on Oct 20, 2014 10:30:31 GMT -6
Place the speaker flat on it's back and put a penny or a nickel on the dust cover of the speaker. Who says loose change has no value! Great idea. Back in the day when I owned a studio for commercial use, I had an engineer come in often, and that was the FIRST thing he did, EVERY time he came in the studio. LOL Kind of a pita, but it gave him peace of mind. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 20, 2014 10:37:25 GMT -6
No - not a myth. But you need to make sure that the ABSOLLUTE phase of your system - DAW, Tape Machines, Amps, Patchbay, etc. is in correct phase. i.e.: a positive going waveform PUSHES your speaker instead of pulls it. An easy way to check this is to take a kick drum sample. Put it in your DAW, make sure it has positive (i.e.: going up instead of down as you mentioned) and route it to a small bookshelf speaker. Place the speaker flat on it's back and put a penny or a nickel on the dust cover of the speaker. Play the sample and note how high the penny jumps. Now, reverse phase and repeat. The penny should jump higher on a positive going waveform. If it doesn't you may be "in phase" in your DAW, but have absolute phase reversed somewhere down the line. (Patchbay, cabling, Pin2 vs. pin3 gear, etc.) In a poorly designed system, you could be in phase in your DAW, out of phase with cable, out of phase on patch bay thusly putting you back INTO proper absolute phase by the time you get to your speakers -- BUT, even though your speakers are in "proper" phase, you WILL have problems as you patch things in and go about daily production. Every element needs to be in absolute positive phase in your system. It's very important to have phase correct at each stage of wiring / interface and you have to go segment by segment to check it. Ahh Bill we are starting to mix phase and polarity, polarity is absolute , black and white Phase is well we measure it in increments, No microphone or Speaker is 100% phase accurate , and some of or favorite gear including most EQ s are going to introduce some phase shift. I know the button on my console says phase but it should be Polarity. |
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Post by scumbum on Oct 20, 2014 11:04:43 GMT -6
No - not a myth. But you need to make sure that the ABSOLLUTE phase of your system - DAW, Tape Machines, Amps, Patchbay, etc. is in correct phase. i.e.: a positive going waveform PUSHES your speaker instead of pulls it. An easy way to check this is to take a kick drum sample. Put it in your DAW, make sure it has positive (i.e.: going up instead of down as you mentioned) and route it to a small bookshelf speaker. Place the speaker flat on it's back and put a penny or a nickel on the dust cover of the speaker. Play the sample and note how high the penny jumps. Now, reverse phase and repeat. The penny should jump higher on a positive going waveform. If it doesn't you may be "in phase" in your DAW, but have absolute phase reversed somewhere down the line. (Patchbay, cabling, Pin2 vs. pin3 gear, etc.) In a poorly designed system, you could be in phase in your DAW, out of phase with cable, out of phase on patch bay thusly putting you back INTO proper absolute phase by the time you get to your speakers -- BUT, even though your speakers are in "proper" phase, you WILL have problems as you patch things in and go about daily production. Every element needs to be in absolute positive phase in your system. It's very important to have phase correct at each stage of wiring / interface and you have to go segment by segment to check it. Great tip ! this is like engineering 101 but I believe it's often over looked today with younger self taught engineers because it's rarely talked about . |
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Post by matt on Oct 20, 2014 12:10:17 GMT -6
It's very important to have phase correct at each stage of wiring / interface and you have to go segment by segment to check it. Great tip ! this is like engineering 101 but I believe it's often over looked today with younger self taught engineers because it's rarely talked about . Well I wish I was younger but alas, I am not. However, I am self-taught, and the lack of a mentor is a big deal to me. Having to discover even the smallest things on your own sucks. But I make do by leveraging my slightly obsessive personality to relentlessly experiment and study the ways of the masters. So, thanks to all who freely share - it makes a real difference to people like me. |
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Post by drbill on Oct 20, 2014 13:02:22 GMT -6
Ahh Bill we are starting to mix phase and polarity, polarity is absolute , black and white Phase is well we measure it in increments, No microphone or Speaker is 100% phase accurate , and some of or favorite gear including most EQ s are going to introduce some phase shift. I know the button on my console says phase but it should be Polarity. Yes. You're absolutely right. I always tend to say "phase" but polarity is correct. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 20, 2014 13:39:08 GMT -6
Ahh Bill we are starting to mix phase and polarity, polarity is absolute , black and white Phase is well we measure it in increments, No microphone or Speaker is 100% phase accurate , and some of or favorite gear including most EQ s are going to introduce some phase shift. I know the button on my console says phase but it should be Polarity. Yes. You're absolutely right. I always tend to say "phase" but polarity is correct. It was lecturing students that forced me to get it right, now for me it's a pet peeve, like how everyone thinks marginal means a small change when it specifically means a change of exactly 1! Of course most do not realize that when we talk about a phase aligned speaker we mean in phase at crossover point but hey that's life! |
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Post by scumbum on Oct 20, 2014 13:39:32 GMT -6
Great tip ! this is like engineering 101 but I believe it's often over looked today with younger self taught engineers because it's rarely talked about . Well I wish I was younger but alas, I am not. However, I am self-taught, and the lack of a mentor is a big deal to me. Having to discover even the smallest things on your own sucks. But I make do by leveraging my slightly obsessive personality to relentlessly experiment and study the ways of the masters. So, thanks to all who freely share - it makes a real difference to people like me. If you look up the definition of sound engineer , this is the answer you get : Slightly obsessive personality............. |
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