Turmoil In The DIY Microphone Forum

Wow. Talk about butting heads. Has anyone found direct comparison clips between the various C-12 clones/capsules and a vintage C12? Even if there are slight differences, there could be a myriad of reasons for it (PSU, capsule, components, age, etc.). Even vintage units don't always sound the same from one unit to the other. OPR Mics points out the sonic differences between PCB and point-to-point wiring:

openplanrecording.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/tube-condenser-microphones-o-p-r-251-and-o-p-r-c12/

For the techies, there will always be the "Quest for the Holy Grail", but for musicians, when will enough be enough? Most of these clones sound better than modern mics, and arguably better than some vintage specimens. I love my clones, and when I'm making music with them, I'm thinking about how great they sound, not "gee, does this REALLY sound like a C-12, U47" etc.

Sounds like Jess Jackson has a chip on his shoulder. Those that have been on multiple platinum albums don't need to talk about it on a fucking message board.

How he dealt with it is one thing, but the primary point of contention was that he suggested that the DIY solution could be improved upon and/or changed to be more like the original, and then various members took turns trying to explain to him why the DIY solution was somehow superior and/or questioning his judgement (only because of the mindset that it MUST be better, because it's DIY). He retorted by telling them his recording pedigree in an effort to defend his opinion and give himself some credence, yet he was only mocked for such. That's my perspective.

Jess Jackson didn't sound out of line to me. He wasn't even claiming that the originals sounded better than his clone, just that the old power supply made his clone sound better. I have a feeling that a bunch of the DIY guys aren't taking him seriously because of the jimwilliams attitude, "Being said, I don't put a lot of thought into the opinions of hip-hop producers on microphones that record spoken words, not singing. YMMV.".

...in a perfect world, the gear designer delivers his baby into the realm where it gets put to use and waits to see how it performs...feedback from qualified users should be helpful and potentially assist the designer to tweak and make any incremental improvements...but, when egos collide, watch-out...Jess simply suggested that coupling the clone C12 to vintage PSU did the mic more sonic justice (in his opinion)...the designers responded a bit defensively and sh*t went downhill real fast...both sides started touting their credentials and it only gets uglier...I attempted to chime in to calm the dialog, but to no avail...

...I only posted this thread to cast a light on what happens when good intentions go bad...both sides need to regroup and address the issue at hand...it benefits both to keep a cool head and keep the dialog amicable...too much talent in the room (with egos to match)...

What's a multimeter??? Bwaahahah

Silly...but something good will come out of it.

IME the collective 'Matachung' are typically very well mannered and humble... but clearly a nerve has been struck. Everybody has bad days.

I still love my matachung c12 on vocals and ac guitar. Although it's definitely less useful on sibilant vocalists (as is the case with most mics of this style with the big 10k 'sheen' boost).

Kidvybes, don't discount your 'peacemaker' attempts. Probably would have been worse without your comments.

This guy walks into Music Head everybody tells him he sounds like Robin Zander's twin asks for the Cheap Trick vocal chain, Dan sets it up, Guy sings, something in his voice ain't right " this is fucked give me the stuff Robin uses"
All of us this is the stuff the exact stuff, it's not the gear, you kind of sound a bit like him but not really like him it's not the gear it's the voice.

They are!  Both have made huge contributions to the DIY community, specially with mics.  When I build something I test test test and test it again before I am happy with it.  I am one of those guys who happens to test every option.  I will also admit when it sucks.  For instance, I built a second PSU based on a new technology for Ricfoxx's MK47.  I thought it was gonna be great.  It sucked, but I had to know if it would sound better!  So it took an extra week of my life and his before he got his mic.  DIY has a lot to do with who is doing it!  I have 3 of my own design/projects all in multiple revs and still not done testing.  I know to many designers who only use math and science and not their ears.  You have to use both!

That being said Matador and Jess are both smart guys and I honestly think they are both on to something from the testing I have done over the last few years. 

There is definitely something going on within the PSU that influences the overall tonality of the mic and it isn't whether its vintage or not. Unfortunately I haven't figured it out yet either but I have multiple copies of the same design that influence the mic to sound/behave differently. If one of them sucked I'd just say there was something wrong with that one but dammit they both sound killer for different reasons. Jess Jackson experienced the same phenomenon but his first mistake was to pretend he knew what the difference was. He claimed that his original was a passive supply and the clone's was not. The Matachung supply differs in that it is full wave rectified vs half-wave for the original C12 supply and while they both used regulation for the heater voltage the Matachung PSU uses an IC while the original used discrete regulation. They are both passive, self biasing circuits. I can't imagine that how you light the heater would make any difference, but I do know several people who have experimented with under-volting tube heaters to influence performance (as well as tube life). Perhaps in their age the original supplies have dropped a few volts on the heater rail and this is causing the difference Jess hears. As far as the half vs full wave aspect of the PSU, I can't say I'm sure it isn't a factor but Matador has suggested not. The two power supplies I have that differ from each have different value transformers - one being 175V and the other being 200V. I used different dropper resistors to derive the same 120V B+ voltage, and -1.1V bias voltage so in theory it "shouldn't" make a difference.  The voltage going into the mic is identical regardless which PSU I use. In actuality, something is making a difference and it'd be great to know what. Matador has suggested to me it could be the value of the first PSU capacitor the mic sees, since the tolerance of 20% really allows for up to 40% differential between 2 "in-spec" parts. Maybe one day I'll dive deeper into that possibility.  I know Kidvybes has experienced the same phenomenon but I haven't examined his PSUs so I don't know how similar they are or not.

It still stands that the capsule, tube, and mic placement all make WAY bigger differences than I have ever experienced by varying the PSU, so time might better be spent optimizing those variables. Even the three CT12s I have show differences between them. I like to think of them as three individual pieces of the same type of wood. Certainly they sound the same, but each is unique in it's fine character.

As for Jess Jackson vs GDIY, I think he approached his hypothesis carelessly and in a mildly offensive stance, and when Matador engaged defensively he turned it into a pissing contest. I think both of them would probably take it all back if they could. The fact is that the ear is a horrible and un-reliable measuring device. Without some kind of measurable evidence it really becomes pointless to say PSU A is better than B because... Even with controlled comparisons and testing it may turn out that differences which appear audible are not measurable.

Rare is an internet forum without some kind of drama.