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Post by swurveman on Oct 16, 2014 8:42:49 GMT -6
Jess Jackson didn't sound out of line to me. He wasn't even claiming that the originals sounded better than his clone, just that the old power supply made his clone sound better. I have the Peluso P12 and the connections on the Power Supply and at the mic are the most difficult of any microphone I own. I need the strongest reading glasses I own to get a close enough look to make sure the fit is right and also to make sure I don't bend one of the male connectors. Perhaps this is what makes the mic unique, but its always a hassle.
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Post by watchtower on Oct 16, 2014 8:52:07 GMT -6
There is definitely something going on within the PSU that influences the overall tonality of the mic and it isn't whether its vintage or not. Unfortunately I haven't figured it out yet either but I have multiple copies of the same design that influence the mic to sound/behave differently. If one of them sucked I'd just say there was something wrong with that one but dammit they both sound killer for different reasons. Jess Jackson experienced the same phenomenon but his first mistake was to pretend he knew what the difference was. He claimed that his original was a passive supply and the clone's was not. The Matachung supply differs in that it is full wave rectified vs half-wave for the original C12 supply and while they both used regulation for the heater voltage the Matachung PSU uses an IC while the original used discrete regulation. They are both passive, self biasing circuits. I can't imagine that how you light the heater would make any difference, but I do know several people who have experimented with under-volting tube heaters to influence performance (as well as tube life). Perhaps in their age the original supplies have dropped a few volts on the heater rail and this is causing the difference Jess hears. As far as the half vs full wave aspect of the PSU, I can't say I'm sure it isn't a factor but Matador has suggested not. The two power supplies I have that differ from each have different value transformers - one being 175V and the other being 200V. I used different dropper resistors to derive the same 120V B+ voltage, and -1.1V bias voltage so in theory it "shouldn't" make a difference. The voltage going into the mic is identical regardless which PSU I use. In actuality, something is making a difference and it'd be great to know what. Matador has suggested to me it could be the value of the first PSU capacitor the mic sees, since the tolerance of 20% really allows for up to 40% differential between 2 "in-spec" parts. Maybe one day I'll dive deeper into that possibility. I know Kidvybes has experienced the same phenomenon but I haven't examined his PSUs so I don't know how similar they are or not. It still stands that the capsule, tube, and mic placement all make WAY bigger differences than I have ever experienced by varying the PSU, so time might better be spent optimizing those variables. Even the three CT12s I have show differences between them. I like to think of them as three individual pieces of the same type of wood. Certainly they sound the same, but each is unique in it's fine character. As for Jess Jackson vs GDIY, I think he approached his hypothesis carelessly and in a mildly offensive stance, and when Matador engaged defensively he turned it into a pissing contest. I think both of them would probably take it all back if they could. The fact is that the ear is a horrible and un-reliable measuring device. Without some kind of measurable evidence it really becomes pointless to say PSU A is better than B because... Even with controlled comparisons and testing it may turn out that differences which appear audible are not measurable. Rare is an internet forum without some kind of drama. So you have tested the two PSUs in the two clones to determine the difference was the PSUs and not the capsules/mics themselves? Sorry - I would assume you have, but you didn't mention it specifically, so I have to ask. I think there is a bigger discrepancy between capsules than people realize/assume. For example, unless something is wrong with my circuit, PSU, or something else, even the front and back of my CT12 sound relatively different.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 16, 2014 9:10:18 GMT -6
you could swap the capacitors between units.... and see if the sound follows... It would almost certainly change things(even though they're a bit different), I'm far from an EE, or designer, but I can say that I've heard many people say "the components in a PSU don't matter as long as it's providing, it's the audio path that matters", I've found this to be Untrue in my personal builds and mods, this whole hub bubb has got the lid off my C12 clone psu, Jess got to me with what he originally said, my mic has amazing sparkle, and air, but it does lack the silk in the sib range, I'm going to do what Tim Campbell suggested for a bit before I try anything else. AFA the GDIY debacle, I think even though matador apologized, Jess needs to do the same, he really came off bad and should tidy that up IMO.
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Post by kidvybes on Oct 16, 2014 9:14:39 GMT -6
So you have tested the two PSUs in the two clones to determine the difference was the PSUs and not the capsules/mics themselves? Sorry - I would assume you have, but you didn't mention it specifically, so I have to ask. I think there is a bigger discrepancy between capsules than people realize/assume. For example, unless something is wrong with my circuit, PSU, or something else, even the front and back of my CT12 sound relatively different. Yes, I have tested my two different C12 mic builds with the two PSUs...when either one of my two mics is coupled to each of the PSUs, the tone is noticeably different, more airy and transparent with one PSU, and slightly thicker, darker, and more mid-present with the other PSU...the two mics have different C12 capsule variants (a Heiserman HK-12 and an ADK Custom Shop GK12d) so depending on the combination of mic and PSU, I can achieve 4 variable tonalities...the mics and PSUs were built with the same PCBs and BOMs...only the capsule, tube and body/headbaskets are different...so, I would expect the two mics to sound different from each other, but I'm surprised that the same mic can sound so different when coupled to the two identical build PSUs...and my mics were built by experienced techs (one by Matador, the other by Eric Heiserman)... At some point I'd like Shane to test the two PSUs for voltage discrepancies or any other differentials he can qualify...in the meantime, having no need for a "matched-pair", I enjoy having the tonal options which seem to be within the range of C12 to 251 character...
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Post by dandeurloo on Oct 16, 2014 9:38:48 GMT -6
You have to make sure that both PSU are putting out the exact same B+ and Heater voltages under the load of the same mic. I highly doubt Jess adjusted them to be the same in his quick test. I know in a quick test I wouldn't. I would do that on a later day.
In most cases those voltages will changes with each mic/tube. That could easily be the difference. Even with a fixed bias it could still cause a sonic difference and feel. It would really show on transients the most. I have noticed it here many times when testing MK47's. Exact same PSU builds, one mic, the PSU's cause the mic to sound slightly different. Just a little bit but different. It could be down to the actual PSU transformers tolerances, wiring, tolerances in the caps (10-20% across a number of caps can add up!).
I have noticed that the same Mogami mic cable (100') cut into separate lengths to make 4 cables out of sound different. The amount of things that are so small and can make nominal differences are crazy. Hi impedance stuff can drive a man crazy! No doubt the 2 biggest differences come from capsules and tubes.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 16, 2014 10:02:46 GMT -6
What Dan says makes sense, there was this guitar player once who plugged his marshall into a stage lighting variac circuit by accident, it was only putting out about 80vac vs the standard us 110-120vac, and the "Brown Sound" was born, his name was Eddie Van Halen, and his tone was hmmm, pretty good 8)
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Post by category5 on Oct 16, 2014 16:29:12 GMT -6
watchtower. Yeah. This is the psu. The differences are present when keeping the mic the same. Agreed you have to adjust b+, bias and heater for each mic and I have found even different cable lengths can raise or drop heater voltage. That's why some degree of science is required to even make a hypothesis. Knowing the exact voltages under the load of the mic would be a good place to start, and making sure the utility power is consistent is another. Fluctuations in the electrical service will translate to B+. Essentially the psu is part of the circuit so it has to influence the sound, but pin-pointing the variables is the trick. I'm surprised it wasn't documented years ago. I certainly don't have much time to invest in these experiments these days, but to say I'm not intrigued would be untrue. A lot of good places to look have already been mentioned. Btw, you really need to readjust the voltages and bias whenever you do a tube swap. You'll be close but the load on the psu can change and require trimming.
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