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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 9, 2014 8:01:54 GMT -6
What's on the market for 16 analog I/O that I can use with my Retina MBP and Pro Tools Native?
Lynx Aurora 16 USB - ~$3k
Apollo 16 Thunderbolt - ~$3k
Symphony 16x16 Thunderbridge - ~$4.5k
Are there any less expensive alternatives that are "quality" converters?
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Post by lolo on Oct 9, 2014 8:23:15 GMT -6
Antelope zen or Orion.
Maybe new Motu line. Some folks are raving about them.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 9, 2014 8:30:38 GMT -6
Zen doesn't have the analog in's or outs. I meant to include the Orion above, thanks for mentioning.
I can't give MOTU the time of day. I've used their previous offerings and wasn't impressed, so I'm turned off by them.
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Post by lpedrum on Oct 9, 2014 18:29:18 GMT -6
Zen doesn't have the analog in's or outs. I meant to include the Orion above, thanks for mentioning. I can't give MOTU the time of day. I've used their previous offerings and wasn't impressed, so I'm turned off by them. I don't anyone personally who's tried the new Motu line, and they've got a tough hill to climb to get in the discussion with Apollo, Aurora, Apollo etc. But the Motu 16a is intriguing--16 i/o, TB and USB built in for $1500. |
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Post by lolo on Oct 9, 2014 18:43:28 GMT -6
Zen doesn't have the analog in's or outs. I meant to include the Orion above, thanks for mentioning. I can't give MOTU the time of day. I've used their previous offerings and wasn't impressed, so I'm turned off by them. Not sure why I typed Zen. Sorry bud, thinking through my assssss. Yeah i know Motu wasnt the best sounding boxes in the past but hey, hopefully these are a step up. Prob too early to tell yet |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 9, 2014 18:46:42 GMT -6
Zen doesn't have the analog in's or outs. I meant to include the Orion above, thanks for mentioning. I can't give MOTU the time of day. I've used their previous offerings and wasn't impressed, so I'm turned off by them. I don't anyone personally who's tried the new Motu line, and they've got a tough hill to climb to get in the discussion with Apollo, Aurora, Apollo etc. But the Motu 16a is intriguing--16 i/o, TB and USB built in for $1500. Price is right. |
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 9, 2014 19:38:23 GMT -6
******NOTE***** I just realized you need USB or TB, so the below wouldn't apply unless you want to use a TB chassis for the pcie card, which still might be a good deal... You might consider a used SSL Alphalink AX... 24 analog I/O plus another 24 adat. Some places include the MADI card for $3k total. Or you can get one on ebay like I did for half that. There's one right now with 1 day left for $800 w/no MADI card (line below). You can pick up an RME MADI card used for about $900 and be good to go with I/O to spare and very good conversion (not to mention latency is as good as it gets). Or if you don't need RME totalmix, then just get an ssl MADI Xtreme card for about $300 used (mine's for sale btw). www.ebay.com/itm/Solid-State-Logic-SSL-Alpha-Link-24-i-o-MADI-AX-ADAT-AD-DA-Converter-/191366029842?pt=US_Computer_Recording_Interfaces&hash=item2c8e4de212 |
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Post by winetree on Oct 9, 2014 21:29:54 GMT -6
******NOTE***** I just realized you need USB or TB, so the below wouldn't apply unless you want to use a TB chassis for the pcie card, which still might be a good deal... You might consider a used SSL Alphalink AX... 24 analog I/O plus another 24 adat. Some places include the MADI card for $3k total. Or you can get one on ebay like I did for half that. There's one right now with 1 day left for $800 w/no MADI card (line below). You can pick up an RME MADI card used for about $900 and be good to go with I/O to spare and very good conversion (not to mention latency is as good as it gets). Or if you don't need RME totalmix, then just get an ssl MADI Xtreme card for about $300 used (mine's for sale btw). www.ebay.com/itm/Solid-State-Logic-SSL-Alpha-Link-24-i-o-MADI-AX-ADAT-AD-DA-Converter-/191366029842?pt=US_Computer_Recording_Interfaces&hash=item2c8e4de212I have lots of preamps and am looking for 16-24 channels of just conversion into a Mac Mini. I could just mix I.T.B. How would the alphalink hookup to a Mac Mini. |
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 9, 2014 23:25:11 GMT -6
I have lots of preamps and am looking for 16-24 channels of just conversion into a Mac Mini. I could just mix I.T.B. How would the alphalink hookup to a Mac Mini. You would need a MADI card (RME Pcie or SSL Xtreme64) and a Pcie to Thunderbolt expansion chassis. Something like this should work, but there may be cheaper options out there: www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EchoExpSE2The company that makes the chassis has a chart indicating that the RME madi cards are compatible: www.sonnettech.com/support/charts/thunderbolt/index.htmlThe SSL card is much cheaper, but doesn't have a software mixer, and apparently is not as well supported with thunderbolt: solid-state-logic-en.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3533/session/L3RpbWUvMTQwOTI4NzUyMS9zaWQvdWtvcDYxMW0%3DJust for reference, earlier this year, I bought the Alphalink with SSL MADI xtreme card for $1500 used on ebay. I decided I wanted the Total mix software mixer from RME, so I then bought an RME MADI Pcie card on the GS classifieds for $900. Hence, my SSL MADI xtreme64 card is for sale. Assuming I can get $300 for the SSL card, my total investment will be $2100... of course if you need a TB chassis (which I don't), then you're around $2500 for 24 analog i/o over MADI. I considered getting an Orion, but they're still pretty pricey on the used market, and I would have still wanted to go the MADI route for reliability/latency vs USB, so it would have been a good $1000 more than the SSL (but you get 32 analog i/o with the Orion). Lynx also didn't seem like nearly as a good a value as either of the above options, and conversion probably isn't any better (from what I've read). Symphony would be a step up in conversion, but the most expensive route by far. Apollo 16 seems like a good value if you're into their plugins (and you probably should be IME). Just saw on sweetwater that their giving away some very nice plugins with an Apollo purchase: "Five Free Plug-ins! A killer UA interface, plus free plug-ins! From October 1 through December 31, 2014, purchase an Apollo 16 from Sweetwater and get 610A Tube Preamp & EQ, EMT 140 Plate Reverb, Neve 88RS Channel Strip, Studer A800 Tape Recorder, and Manley Massive Passive EQ plug-ins (a $1,295 value) FREE when you register your product!" www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Apollo16TB |
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Post by ericn on Oct 10, 2014 6:51:02 GMT -6
The other option for HD native is the HD Native thunderbolt box and Avid Digital I/IO.
The advantage of the New Avid Digital I/O over the Digi ones are its officially supported and you can use 32ch of AES . Digits are Dirt cheap!
Then Pick your favorite AES Converters
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 10, 2014 7:25:05 GMT -6
Man alive. There's really no inexpensive way to go at it with nice converters. mdmitch2, thanks for all the info. The SSL seems like a really good option for getting 24 channels off the bat. It's more than I would need for the box that I'm looking at, but would allow for me to add a second 8 channel mixer that I could use for an additional buss down the road. I'm pretty sure this is the unit that svart is using and happy with too. ericn, what is HD native? Do I need a Pro Tools HD license to run that? Or is that running HD hardware with Pro Tools Native? I've always been confused by the Avid systems (with the 192's and cards and all that so I just avoided looking into all of that stuff). It looks like you can get an Avid Omni box for like $850 use though. That's cheaper than I got my 002 for back in the day. What do you need to run that? I guess it's short on the I/O anyway. How is the RME stuff? I know that their drivers are supposed to be rock solid. Last week I was able to add a driver to my machine, plug into a friends Fireface 800, and it just worked without issue. How is the conversion quality? It seems like I could grab a FF800 for about $800, but it'll probably cost me an arm and a leg to add the additional needed channels via ADAT. Is mixing conversion frowned upon? If I had a FF800 and a stand alone 8 channel SMUX converter from someone else, would that cause issues? What about this cheap Focusrite sutff? Anyone compared it to legit high end stuff? An Scarlett 18i20 and a Octopre MKII Dynamic used would run about $800 and give 16 channels of I/O. |
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Post by svart on Oct 10, 2014 7:39:09 GMT -6
Man alive. There's really no inexpensive way to go at it with nice converters. mdmitch2, thanks for all the info. The SSL seems like a really good option for getting 24 channels off the bat. It's more than I would need for the box that I'm looking at, but would allow for me to add a second 8 channel mixer that I could use for an additional buss down the road. I'm pretty sure this is the unit that svart is using and happy with too. ericn, what is HD native? Do I need a Pro Tools HD license to run that? Or is that running HD hardware with Pro Tools Native? I've always been confused by the Avid systems (with the 192's and cards and all that so I just avoided looking into all of that stuff). It looks like you can get an Avid Omni box for like $850 use though. That's cheaper than I got my 002 for back in the day. What do you need to run that? I guess it's short on the I/O anyway. How is the RME stuff? I know that their drivers are supposed to be rock solid. Last week I was able to add a driver to my machine, plug into a friends Fireface 800, and it just worked without issue. How is the conversion quality? It seems like I could grab a FF800 for about $800, but it'll probably cost me an arm and a leg to add the additional needed channels via ADAT. Is mixing conversion frowned upon? If I had a FF800 and a stand alone 8 channel SMUX converter from someone else, would that cause issues? What about this cheap Focusrite sutff? Anyone compared it to legit high end stuff? An Scarlett 18i20 and a Octopre MKII Dynamic used would run about $800 and give 16 channels of I/O. I'm using the MX4 card, mainly because I use the DSP softmixer for routing for headphone submixes and such. I use the alphalink also because I get 24 channels of analog I/O PLUS 24 channels of ADAT optical, of which I use 8 channels out to a behringer ada8000 for the headphone outputs and my talkback mic input! I really agonized over wanting to go with the Madiextreme cards because they are so much cheaper, but in the end I've become so accustomed to the flexibility that the DSP stuff allows. SSL drivers can be fickle to install and get everything set up perfectly (too many options that aren't intuitive, you absolutely must RTFM to get things going) however, once set up, it runs without a single hiccup. This looks like it might go for cheap.. www.ebay.com/itm/Solid-State-Logic-SSL-Alpha-Link-24-i-o-MADI-AX-ADAT-AD-DA-Converter-/191366029842?pt=US_Computer_Recording_Interfaces&hash=item2c8e4de212And then you'll need the MADIextreme or MX4 card. |
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Post by ericn on Oct 10, 2014 7:42:06 GMT -6
Man alive. There's really no inexpensive way to go at it with nice converters. mdmitch2, thanks for all the info. The SSL seems like a really good option for getting 24 channels off the bat. It's more than I would need for the box that I'm looking at, but would allow for me to add a second 8 channel mixer that I could use for an additional buss down the road. I'm pretty sure this is the unit that svart is using and happy with too. ericn, what is HD native? Do I need a Pro Tools HD license to run that? Or is that running HD hardware with Pro Tools Native? I've always been confused by the Avid systems (with the 192's and cards and all that so I just avoided looking into all of that stuff). It looks like you can get an Avid Omni box for like $850 use though. That's cheaper than I got my 002 for back in the day. What do you need to run that? I guess it's short on the I/O anyway. How is the RME stuff? I know that their drivers are supposed to be rock solid. Last week I was able to add a driver to my machine, plug into a friends Fireface 800, and it just worked without issue. How is the conversion quality? It seems like I could grab a FF800 for about $800, but it'll probably cost me an arm and a leg to add the additional needed channels via ADAT. Is mixing conversion frowned upon? If I had a FF800 and a stand alone 8 channel SMUX converter from someone else, would that cause issues? What about this cheap Focusrite sutff? Anyone compared it to legit high end stuff? An Scarlett 18i20 and a Octopre MKII Dynamic used would run about $800 and give 16 channels of I/O. Jesse In Avid Speak HD Native or Native is a Card, or a thunderbolt box, HD lic, and AViD HD Interface. What the rest of the world thinks of as "Native" is Protools software that works with pretty much anything! Or Buy a HD 8 lic like I did (or HD9 or 10) a PCI chassis and a PCIe host card some HD interfaces and run that way! |
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Post by ericn on Oct 10, 2014 7:52:58 GMT -6
Also Bro
I do love RME Cards, But I and 99% of the guys I know who have used it never quite wrapped their heads around Totalmix! It looks so simple but man my kid would always screw it up and I would find my self fighting with it!
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 10, 2014 7:59:15 GMT -6
Man alive. There's really no inexpensive way to go at it with nice converters. mdmitch2, thanks for all the info. The SSL seems like a really good option for getting 24 channels off the bat. It's more than I would need for the box that I'm looking at, but would allow for me to add a second 8 channel mixer that I could use for an additional buss down the road. I'm pretty sure this is the unit that svart is using and happy with too. ericn, what is HD native? Do I need a Pro Tools HD license to run that? Or is that running HD hardware with Pro Tools Native? I've always been confused by the Avid systems (with the 192's and cards and all that so I just avoided looking into all of that stuff). It looks like you can get an Avid Omni box for like $850 use though. That's cheaper than I got my 002 for back in the day. What do you need to run that? I guess it's short on the I/O anyway. How is the RME stuff? I know that their drivers are supposed to be rock solid. Last week I was able to add a driver to my machine, plug into a friends Fireface 800, and it just worked without issue. How is the conversion quality? It seems like I could grab a FF800 for about $800, but it'll probably cost me an arm and a leg to add the additional needed channels via ADAT. Is mixing conversion frowned upon? If I had a FF800 and a stand alone 8 channel SMUX converter from someone else, would that cause issues? What about this cheap Focusrite sutff? Anyone compared it to legit high end stuff? An Scarlett 18i20 and a Octopre MKII Dynamic used would run about $800 and give 16 channels of I/O. It seems us hybrid/OTB guys in need of a high Q, mid size I/O setups are in flux to no end, I was looking at the sweetwater no interest symphony 16x16 with the idea i could get the smd caps upgraded and add a 16x16 expansion card later, that was until i saw the xpansion card was almost as much as the complete symphony 16x16?? About a year I've been demoing/looking for HQ 32 I/O that doesn't cost a small new car, still looking... Now it seems antelope left there orion 32 in it's overstressed and pinched sounding state, i hope someone comes out with a similar product with superior conversion headroom/noise/dr quality in the $4-5,000 range. Maybe i'll find a "game changer"  lol, this weekend 8) |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 10, 2014 8:01:42 GMT -6
Man alive. There's really no inexpensive way to go at it with nice converters. mdmitch2, thanks for all the info. The SSL seems like a really good option for getting 24 channels off the bat. It's more than I would need for the box that I'm looking at, but would allow for me to add a second 8 channel mixer that I could use for an additional buss down the road. I'm pretty sure this is the unit that svart is using and happy with too. ericn, what is HD native? Do I need a Pro Tools HD license to run that? Or is that running HD hardware with Pro Tools Native? I've always been confused by the Avid systems (with the 192's and cards and all that so I just avoided looking into all of that stuff). It looks like you can get an Avid Omni box for like $850 use though. That's cheaper than I got my 002 for back in the day. What do you need to run that? I guess it's short on the I/O anyway. How is the RME stuff? I know that their drivers are supposed to be rock solid. Last week I was able to add a driver to my machine, plug into a friends Fireface 800, and it just worked without issue. How is the conversion quality? It seems like I could grab a FF800 for about $800, but it'll probably cost me an arm and a leg to add the additional needed channels via ADAT. Is mixing conversion frowned upon? If I had a FF800 and a stand alone 8 channel SMUX converter from someone else, would that cause issues? What about this cheap Focusrite sutff? Anyone compared it to legit high end stuff? An Scarlett 18i20 and a Octopre MKII Dynamic used would run about $800 and give 16 channels of I/O. I'm using the MX4 card, mainly because I use the DSP softmixer for routing for headphone submixes and such. I use the alphalink also because I get 24 channels of analog I/O PLUS 24 channels of ADAT optical, of which I use 8 channels out to a behringer ada8000 for the headphone outputs and my talkback mic input! I really agonized over wanting to go with the Madiextreme cards because they are so much cheaper, but in the end I've become so accustomed to the flexibility that the DSP stuff allows. SSL drivers can be fickle to install and get everything set up perfectly (too many options that aren't intuitive, you absolutely must RTFM to get things going) however, once set up, it runs without a single hiccup. This looks like it might go for cheap.. www.ebay.com/itm/Solid-State-Logic-SSL-Alpha-Link-24-i-o-MADI-AX-ADAT-AD-DA-Converter-/191366029842?pt=US_Computer_Recording_Interfaces&hash=item2c8e4de212And then you'll need the MADIextreme or MX4 card. You're using this card? www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/625187-REG/Solid_State_Logic_726907X5_MX4_PCIe_Interface.htmlBalls that's expensive. |
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Post by svart on Oct 10, 2014 8:03:57 GMT -6
Yep that's the one. Yep it's expensive and very rare to find used. it's the same PCB as the MADIextreme but with all the DSP and memory chips installed.. And probably firmware is different. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 10, 2014 8:05:42 GMT -6
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 10, 2014 8:16:09 GMT -6
Basically, I'm thinking about moving out of my Midas VeniceF-32 because it's just too big for my room. I think a Thermionic Fat Bustard seems pretty killer and I'm really satisfied with my other Thermionic stuff, so I'm thinking about going that route. The Bustard can run 14 channels (12 channels plus 2 aux in) so I'd need 16 channels out of an interface. 14 to the bustard, 2 come back into Pro Tools that I would monitor through outs 15-16 on the converters. Another $2500 on top of the Bustard may just make it unobtainable though. What about this SSL deal? www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ALMX416ME This is 4 in, 16 out, and comes with the $1k SSL Madi 64 Card included? I could slap that card into a TB chassis (another $450 for the demo). Not really saving anything over the used 24 channel though I guess, but I could do 36 months that way. |
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Post by swurveman on Oct 10, 2014 9:00:23 GMT -6
Also Bro I do love RME Cards, But I and 99% of the guys I know who have used it never quite wrapped their heads around Totalmix! It looks so simple but man my kid would always screw it up and I would find my self fighting with it! It's simpler if you have Asio based software like Cubendo, because you can do everything with Asio Direct Monitoring via the monitor buttons on the audio channels for cue mix balances. On the other hand, for Pro Tools people who are used to doing everything from the PT software, they have to use the separate Totalmix mixer and I had to spend some time getting Pro Tools users in our studio to face the fact that they now have to use a separate mixer for cue mixes. That being said, I really do not know why it is such a hurdle intellectually for so many people. You define the hardware outputs to the different outpts for the Main Mix and for the players headphones and send various levels to them to get the right balances for their separate submixes. However, since so many people seem to have problems, RME has made a change in that now they have a "Control Room" section in Totalmix if you want to use it, which allows people to think in terms of Main Mix/Phone Mixes etc. As for reliability: I have 32 channels of Aurora16/RME AES-PCI/PCIe and other than a faulty PCIe card they sent me, it has been rock solid for 3 years. Syncing two Aurora 16's with the RME cards has gone prreviously, I had an Echo/Layla before. So, I do not have a lot of experience with listening to different converters. However, the Aurora does not color the sound, which is fine with me because I'd rather have transparency than color when it comes to converters. |
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 10, 2014 11:53:54 GMT -6
How is the RME stuff? I know that their drivers are supposed to be rock solid. Last week I was able to add a driver to my machine, plug into a friends Fireface 800, and it just worked without issue. How is the conversion quality? For what it's worth, when I switched from the RME Multiface II to the Alphalink, I did some comparisons of the conversion, and while the SSL was superior (mainly a slightly tighter low end), it wasn't anything like the 'night and day' differences that you hear some people go on about. For perspective, the ITB vs Analog Summing comparisons I've heard were much more dramatic, but YMMV of course. And as you know, you can't beat RME drivers for stability, and keeping drivers up to date and compatible with new operating systems and whatnot (I recall they had windows 7 drivers before it was even available to the public). Also, as many have said, Total Mix is very confusing at first, but there's some good Youtube videos that helped me to make sense of it. |
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Post by popmann on Oct 10, 2014 15:12:05 GMT -6
The price of analog summing is in the interface. I have to remind myself of that every now and again when I see things like a $2200 Burl 32ch summing unit....and then realize to fully feed that would take $6-10k in ADA.
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Post by wiz on Oct 10, 2014 16:10:52 GMT -6
The price of analog summing is in the interface. I have to remind myself of that every now and again when I see things like a $2200 Burl 32ch summing unit....and then realize to fully feed that would take $6-10k in ADA. Its this, that keeps happening to me as well. I would have to change interfaces (current RME UCX) and then the cost of a summing system and cabling... and the workflow change. I just cant justify the cost, I have no issues with my current workflow, so summing would be a (perhaps vanity) sonics driven decision and at this point, I can't justify the change in sonics vs cost. |
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Post by ericn on Oct 10, 2014 16:34:58 GMT -6
I disagree, Appogee DA16, even the later X can be had for little money, the Lucid 88192 is a used bargain , heck a BLA behringer ADA800 isn't bad and pretty cheap! If you can get by with 48K a tricked out Apogee AD8000 still sounds pretty good!
Or wait a year and go Ross Martin Audio!
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Post by popmann on Oct 10, 2014 18:18:58 GMT -6
He poo poo'd MOTU, I wasn't going to bring up the Berhinger unit.
It IS the exception in that you can use it AT MAX 48khz to expand many interfaces. I could pay the $199 and do that here with my Multiface....have a 16x16 for a fraction....but, maxing at 48khz. So, giveth in one way--analog summing....taketh on every single track and any DSP I do ITB. The cost of a AD16x/DA16x and AES card is about $2500-3k (currently used)...which is the same as he's trying to avoid. Now--you might be able to get a deal on the "preX" units, but I have NO experience with those--and would point out they're literally 15-20 year old converters aimed at being "upgrades" for Digi888s.
BTW--I have said the Echo 12x12 would be the best (budget) home studio interface made if it just added SPDIF IO. It's simply 12x12 line level analog connections...and I think MIDI and Word Clock IO. Add SPDIF in and out...and it would be da bomb....for what $550 or something? No shitty preamps. No DIs. If you can get away with 12....there's your cheapest alternative--it'll do 12x12 at any sample rate you want.
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lol, this weekend 8)
