|
|
Post by mrholmes on Sept 4, 2014 7:48:48 GMT -6
Does anybody can make a statement about the old Mackie.
It was offered to me for 500 Euro.
My guesswork is it needs to be recapped soon.
May I am better served with a new Allen and Heath ZED 420 or 428??
I am now using the ZED 14 which sounds amazing for its price and does offer more than decent EQs.
I heard that some people do like the way the old Mackies act.
I had an Mackie VLZ but thats long ago and I did not had a good monitoring situation.
Opinions; experiences???
|
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 4, 2014 7:59:32 GMT -6
I haven't used the 32-8-2, but my A&H Mix Wizard WZ3 16:2 is cleaner than the Mackie VLZ's that we were using with my cover bands. I also have a Midas Venice F32 that I greatly prefer to the Mackie (although the EQ section is cramped and not as quick to use on the Midas). In you're situation, if you need an upgrade, I would stick with the bigger ZED if you're happy with the sound that you're getting.
|
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Sept 4, 2014 8:49:21 GMT -6
Some people swear by that console. I had one and I liked the sound that came off it. The EQ's are not going to wow you or anything, but it's not going to hurt anything either.
I'm not totally positively sure, but the one I had was one of the first ones they built, the guy I sold it to said those were made in either Washington or Oregon, somewhere on the west coast… like I said, I'm not positive but he did say there is a difference. He paid me more than I asked for it, what really sucked was UPS ended up driving a forklift through the thing so he had to get it completely rebuilt. Pretty sure the sound he paid extra for never made it to place…. sad deal, nice guy.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098 
|
Post by ericn on Sept 4, 2014 9:02:47 GMT -6
Not bad, if you have to have a console. For the money you can do much better I like The little mackies, I just think that buss sucks when you put more than 16 inputs. I think you can do much better with an A&H and honestly a Soundcraft Delta/Venue heck a recapped 200 is a much better board!
When they were New The Mackie lost every 8 buss shoot out we had based on sound, People would get fooled by all the gain The mackie had! buy a Ghost or Topaz heck even the Tascam 2600 sounded better AH GS3 or not inline Gl3, Gl3000. 3300, If you can find a Studiomaster P7 you will have the winner of the 90s cheap 8 buss wars!
Or If you can find an old Carvin 1688 or 2488 recap it rechip it at some point you will be happy!
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Sept 4, 2014 9:56:52 GMT -6
I agree with Eric, the Delta 200 is a great choice, it's modular! If u have to recap that Mackie, good luck.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Sept 4, 2014 10:30:04 GMT -6
All very good points…. I like if a console does not color the sound that is what the new A+H ZED Series does very well.
Special if you keep in mind what they cost.
One more point for the A+H is the layout.
Recapping needs time and money.
I guess it will cost much more instead of buying a ZED 420 new??
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Sept 4, 2014 10:41:56 GMT -6
Recapping a Mackie is WAY harder than doing a modular console. My opinion is that the sound of them was horrible, but I can't deny there were many good projects done on them. At the point in time when they were popular I was not a good enough engineer to do it though. IMO, you should go with the A&H or continue looking for something better....
PS - the VLZ's sound better than the 8 bus in that is of any help.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 10:56:52 GMT -6
I wouldn't go for a used Mackie nowadays...
You might have too much cost of service, if it is not fully serviced just before you buy it. Not only caps, but also faders, switches and pots....
Once had a 32 ch. Mackie rackmixer, didn't satisfy me at all, fairly neutral sound but low headroom, EQ didn't sound good to me, scratching pots etc.pp.... Went for a Roland that days, much better.
Nowadays you can do much better for the money with a Tascam M2600, a mid-class Soundtracs - you might have luck to get better ones as the Topaz's (which don't sound bad... underrated standard SSM2017 pre and nice EQ).
The mentioned Soundcrafts also sound pretty good. Nothing wrong with them at all.
But these consoles might all have more warmth and colour than the A&H you are considering...might be not what you are after.
On the other hand - if you go for an analog console nowadays, why not get the only advantage soundwise, a console that colours nicely when saturated...
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Sept 4, 2014 11:43:33 GMT -6
I looked at all those back in the day.. The 8bus, the Ghost, etc. I ended up with an old Alesis X2. Much better in every way than all the others.
Unfortunately they are pretty rare and parts (channel strips and power supplies) are even more rare, although there are a few being sold on EBAY right now..
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
|
Post by ericn on Sept 4, 2014 13:21:42 GMT -6
I looked at all those back in the day.. The 8bus, the Ghost, etc. I ended up with an old Alesis X2. Much better in every way than all the others. Unfortunately they are pretty rare and parts (channel strips and power supplies) are even more rare, although there are a few being sold on EBAY right now.. I would agree but only if you had the tech skills to keep an X2 running! Everyone I know of has sounded great but been any thing but reliable! One client had 3 to keep one running! |
|
|
|
Post by svart on Sept 4, 2014 13:35:15 GMT -6
I looked at all those back in the day.. The 8bus, the Ghost, etc. I ended up with an old Alesis X2. Much better in every way than all the others. Unfortunately they are pretty rare and parts (channel strips and power supplies) are even more rare, although there are a few being sold on EBAY right now.. I would agree but only if you had the tech skills to keep an X2 running! Everyone I know of has sounded great but been any thing but reliable! One client had 3 to keep one running! Yeah, in the beginning they had issues, mainly with the quality of power connectors in the unit, they'd corrode and then burn. The later productions were better, but by then nobody bought them due to everyone going ITB. I wrote a long reply on GS a few years ago when someone was talking about them, and one of the ex-production guys from Alesis chimed in to talk about it. There were definitely things that needed fixing and changing on mine, but once done, they work great. Besides, anyone who has ever worked with an old Neve knows that there is nothing remotely close to the amount of work a Neve needs to stay going.. |
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Sept 4, 2014 14:51:12 GMT -6
So I ask the skilled from your experience what will be the average cost including the master section and PSU in caps and chips etc….
200 400 more???
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Sept 4, 2014 15:13:14 GMT -6
So I ask the skilled from your experience what will be the average cost including the master section and PSU in caps and chips etc…. 200 400 more??? Entirely depends on your configuration, and what caps/opamps you use, my delta 200 is 32/8/2, I had jim williams mod a bunch of channels, i bought a few used that were modded by JW, and did some myself. It's close, but not finished yet, but because its modular, i can use as little as 1 channel if i want 8), which is very handy if something was to go wrong with a strip. btw, it sounds amazing. edit; I recommend having jim do the mods, it's worth it, he's fast, really well priced, and he came up with the mods, i struggled to a degree with the mods, and would choose to not do it again, and being modular, you can feed him the channels as you can afford without shutting down your work. and to be clear, they sound ridiculously superior to the stockers, it's not even close. |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
|
Post by ericn on Sept 4, 2014 16:17:37 GMT -6
So I ask the skilled from your experience what will be the average cost including the master section and PSU in caps and chips etc…. 200 400 more??? Entirely depends on your configuration, and what caps/opamps you use, my delta 200 is 32/8/2, I had jim williams mod a bunch of channels, i bought a few used that were modded by JW, and did some myself. It's close, but not finished yet, but because its modular, i can use as little as 1 channel if i want 8), which is very handy if something was to go wrong with a strip. btw, it sounds amazing. edit; I recommend having jim do the mods, it's worth it, he's fast, really well priced, and he came up with the mods, i struggled to a degree with the mods, and would choose to not do it again, and being modular, you can feed him the channels as you can afford without shutting down your work. and to be clear, they sound ridiculously superior to the stockers, it's not even close. Tone I agree except I do believe Mr Holms is in Berlin ! The shipping back and forth would not be cheap! I might suggest he buy modules in the US and have them shipped to JW granted as I have said before anybody with basic metal working skills could build a frame, and the ribbon cable is straight forward! |
|
|
|
Post by svart on Sept 4, 2014 16:53:40 GMT -6
Mackie 8 bus doesn't have single channels. They are in buckets of 8 or 16, and the pcb is parallel with the surface so total removal of the pcb is required to work on the boards, which is a huge reason i avoided it myself.
Also, most opamps don't necessarily need changing, however caps in the 8 bus arent great and need changing, especially any and all electrolytics in the power system. Any BJTs in the preamps should be paralleled with the same type for lower noise, or just replaced and rebiased.
As with any modding like this, always, I REPEAT, always upgrade the power system first.
Most people just change signal path parts an make things worse for themselves by straining the poor power system more. Besides, it might be good enough that you can stop worrying about upgrading and just use it!
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
|
Post by ericn on Sept 4, 2014 17:30:29 GMT -6
Mackie 8 bus doesn't have single channels. They are in buckets of 8 or 16, and the pcb is parallel with the surface so total removal of the pcb is required to work on the boards, which is a huge reason i avoided it myself. Also, most opamps don't necessarily need changing, however caps in the 8 bus arent great and need changing, especially any and all electrolytics in the power system. Any BJTs in the preamps should be paralleled with the same type for lower noise, or just replaced and rebiased. As with any modding like this, always, I REPEAT, always upgrade the power system first. Most people just change signal path parts an make things worse for themselves by straining the poor power system more. Besides, it might be good enough that you can stop worrying about upgrading and just use it! Correct about the Mackie , but we were talking about Modding a Soundcraft Delta ! A bigger , better quiet PSU is a must! |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Sept 4, 2014 18:37:19 GMT -6
As with any modding like this, always, I REPEAT, always upgrade the power system first. Besides, it might be good enough that you can stop worrying about upgrading and just use it! I wholeheartedly agree with three thumbsup!!! OF the dozen + consoles I've owned, power supply mods / rebuilds made more of a difference than everything else combined. They're generally not cheap though if you do it right. Ralph Skelton @ Pacific Innovative in the Valley is (IMO) the guy for this. Expensive and worth $5 for every $1 you spend. A genius when it comes to power supplies. |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
|
Post by ericn on Sept 4, 2014 19:34:45 GMT -6
Power one regulated modules are pretty easy to set up if you understand Voltage and current, add in the lack of a fan and there worth 100 times the investment !
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
|
Post by ericn on Sept 4, 2014 19:40:55 GMT -6
I would agree but only if you had the tech skills to keep an X2 running! Everyone I know of has sounded great but been any thing but reliable! One client had 3 to keep one running! Yeah, in the beginning they had issues, mainly with the quality of power connectors in the unit, they'd corrode and then burn. The later productions were better, but by then nobody bought them due to everyone going ITB. I wrote a long reply on GS a few years ago when someone was talking about them, and one of the ex-production guys from Alesis chimed in to talk about it. There were definitely things that needed fixing and changing on mine, but once done, they work great. Besides, anyone who has ever worked with an old Neve knows that there is nothing remotely close to the amount of work a Neve needs to stay going.. I agree except somebody who buys an old Neve is either crazy or has a decent tech, X2 guy knows a guy who's " dad is a TV repairman, he can fix anything" , except he works in bestbuys service dept . And knows how to replace a board, wait that's my brother in law! I have seen a couple of X2s where " all issues were addressed" , well if there is a small chance they solved the problems, but I would bet they caused more! |
|
|
|
Post by svart on Sept 4, 2014 20:03:25 GMT -6
Yeah, in the beginning they had issues, mainly with the quality of power connectors in the unit, they'd corrode and then burn. The later productions were better, but by then nobody bought them due to everyone going ITB. I wrote a long reply on GS a few years ago when someone was talking about them, and one of the ex-production guys from Alesis chimed in to talk about it. There were definitely things that needed fixing and changing on mine, but once done, they work great. Besides, anyone who has ever worked with an old Neve knows that there is nothing remotely close to the amount of work a Neve needs to stay going.. I agree except somebody who buys an old Neve is either crazy or has a decent tech, X2 guy knows a guy who's " dad is a TV repairman, he can fix anything" , except he works in bestbuys service dept . And knows how to replace a board, wait that's my brother in law! I have seen a couple of X2s where " all issues were addressed" , well if there is a small chance they solved the problems, but I would bet they caused more! I know a thing or two about the X2.. theopiumdenproductions.com/alesisx2/X2.htmOne of the best things about the X2 is the fully parametric mid EQ sections. These are the CAPS style (Constant Amplitude Phase Shift) where the amplitude doesn't change as the Q is changed. Fred Forsell is a proponent of this style of EQ and has a whitepaper on his site about it. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Sept 4, 2014 20:29:12 GMT -6
Power one regulated modules are pretty easy to set up if you understand Voltage and current, add in the lack of a fan and there worth 100 times the investment ! No doubt. A Power One supply is not a Ralph Skelton supply though. We;re talking two different things.  |
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Sept 5, 2014 14:26:16 GMT -6
Not bad, if you have to have a console. For the money you can do much better I like The little mackies, I just think that buss sucks when you put more than 16 inputs. I think you can do much better with an A&H and honestly a Soundcraft Delta/Venue heck a recapped 200 is a much better board! When they were New The Mackie lost every 8 buss shoot out we had based on sound, People would get fooled by all the gain The mackie had! buy a Ghost or Topaz heck even the Tascam 2600 sounded better AH GS3 or not inline Gl3, Gl3000. 3300, If you can find a Studiomaster P7 you will have the winner of the 90s cheap 8 buss wars! Or If you can find an old Carvin 1688 or 2488 recap it rechip it at some point you will be happy! I talked to my brother in law who is manager at DHL - without any doubt it would be EXPENSIVE. I have a tech here in Berlin who could do the recapping with me together. The Delta is used very expensive in Germany it goes around 500-800 Euro. The Spirit is much cheaper? Is there a big difference between the Spirt and the Delta? |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Sept 5, 2014 14:39:39 GMT -6
Yes, the Spirit is cheaper and is a cheaper build than the Delta's. Maybe try looking for a 200 series. (Is that the right number, I forget....) They were the predecessor to the Delta, and really the same console for all intents and purposes. For your budget $500-800 might be expensive, but honestly, it's a drop in the bucket of going OTB. Your bays and wiring might cost you 10X's that amount as will recapping the console. Perhaps re-think OTB? It's an expensive proposition long term, and the cost of the console (500-800) is really just the beginning. Do a search for Spirit / Delta. There's a lot of threads comparing the two on GS. Since you're in the EU, I'd suggest looking for an older D&R. You might luck out. There are a lot of them in Germany and Holland and they are a significant step up from either a soundcraft or mackie IMO.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Sept 5, 2014 14:42:42 GMT -6
Not bad, if you have to have a console. For the money you can do much better I like The little mackies, I just think that buss sucks when you put more than 16 inputs. I think you can do much better with an A&H and honestly a Soundcraft Delta/Venue heck a recapped 200 is a much better board! When they were New The Mackie lost every 8 buss shoot out we had based on sound, People would get fooled by all the gain The mackie had! buy a Ghost or Topaz heck even the Tascam 2600 sounded better AH GS3 or not inline Gl3, Gl3000. 3300, If you can find a Studiomaster P7 you will have the winner of the 90s cheap 8 buss wars! Or If you can find an old Carvin 1688 or 2488 recap it rechip it at some point you will be happy! I talked to my brother in law who is manager at DHL - without any doubt it would be EXPENSIVE. I have a tech here in Berlin who could do the recapping with me together. The Delta is used very expensive in Germany it goes around 500-800 Euro. The Spirit is much cheaper? Is there a big difference between the Spirt and the Delta? Yes, it's not modular from the top and not even listed as an option for mods on JW's site, I haven't used one, but my guess is if your looking for a top audio quality, it probably won't get you there. |
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Sept 5, 2014 16:25:55 GMT -6
Just did a quick research on the D+Rs seems to be an option I should spent some time thinking about it.
They go for 2K - 3K depending which console it is.
Everything you put into such a console starts to make sense.
|
|
