ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Sept 5, 2014 16:30:32 GMT -6
Delta and Spirit are worlds apart, a Delta is worth the money!! The Spirit was a Prosumer Mackie Like board that started life as a SECK! The Delta was a pro board found on many small tours. One trick is to buy a Small Delta then buy another small Delta and bolt the frames togather, get a bigger ribbon cable and you have a larger console. Because its modular you can add inputs one at a time! Another similar board ( they got sued by Harmon because it was too much like a Delta is the Dynacord/ DDA/ EV/ Altec/University Interface!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 5, 2014 16:35:59 GMT -6
Power one regulated modules are pretty easy to set up if you understand Voltage and current, add in the lack of a fan and there worth 100 times the investment ! No doubt. A Power One supply is not a Ralph Skelton supply though. We;re talking two different things. One thing to remember Bill, while I am sure Ralph builds excellent PSUs I am sure they lack one stupid thing that Power One has, that little UL/ CL listed sticker, depending on application, Local Codes and your insurance policy it can be a very big deal! The retired gear pimp in me will always recomend the UL listed PSU.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 5, 2014 17:14:19 GMT -6
You guys blow my head; too many options.
One last question and I think I can make a decision. Someone mentioned old Tascams. There is one up for sale an M 600 from the 70s. They look great but are they any good?
The one is up for sale seems to be recapped in 2012.
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Post by drbill on Sept 5, 2014 17:17:11 GMT -6
No doubt. A Power One supply is not a Ralph Skelton supply though. We;re talking two different things. One thing to remember Bill, while I am sure Ralph builds excellent PSUs I am sure they lack one stupid thing that Power One has, that little UL/ CL listed sticker, depending on application, Local Codes and your insurance policy it can be a very big deal! The retired gear pimp in me will always recomend the UL listed PSU. Yeah, that's important, no doubt. But usually Ralph modifies my supplies from stock to superhuman, and the little UL sticker is still on the back. Even though it bears little resemblance internally.
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Post by drbill on Sept 5, 2014 17:18:20 GMT -6
You guys blow my head; too many options. One last question and I think I can make a decision. Someone mentioned old Tascams. There is one up for sale an M 600 from the 70s. They look great but are they any good? The one is up for sale seems to be recapped in 2012. Not great. Keep on the hunt for a D&R. They are local to you, still excited to help with their vintage products, and a superior product even before any mods or recapping....
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 5, 2014 17:45:40 GMT -6
Right the D+R are easy to find in Germany.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 5, 2014 17:54:30 GMT -6
I said the Tascam 2600 beat the Mackie in every shoot out, but the downside to the Tascam 2600 is its all -10. Holms you seam to be jonesing for a board, take a deep breath do some research, look at the routing features and opinions out there, then cut your choices down and wait till you find one near you. In the end it comes down to
Condition
Location
And time you can spend verifying condition!
If you know your options a head of time you will know when to pounce, over all the analog console market is a buyers market and really your probably going to find the 500-1500 euro market it offer the best long term investments. Also don't forget the cost of wireing! I Paid $750 for the status ( hey recall. Onboard dynamics and automation are fun) but I have spent 5 times that on Wire, connectors and bays ( every connector on everything is coming out to a bay with plenty of room for expansion )
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 5, 2014 18:43:35 GMT -6
I said the Tascam 2600 beat the Mackie in every shoot out, but the downside to the Tascam 2600 is its all -10. Holms you seam to be jonesing for a board, take a deep breath do some research, look at the routing features and opinions out there, then cut your choices down and wait till you find one near you. In the end it comes down to Condition Location And time you can spend verifying condition! If you know your options a head of time you will know when to pounce, over all the analog console market is a buyers market and really your probably going to find the 500-1500 euro market it offer the best long term investments. Also don't forget the cost of wireing! I Paid $750 for the status ( hey recall. Onboard dynamics and automation are fun) but I have spent 5 times that on Wire, connectors and bays ( every connector on everything is coming out to a bay with plenty of room for expansion ) First of all I have something to work with so there no need to hurry I do find my AH not too bad, and it would be unfair to compare it to High-End studio desks. But the offer I found on a D-R 4000 is very tempting. No patch bay but it is fully recapped in 2010 and the PSU was refurbished by a professional company. Not to forget I have some Outboard but not too much so wiring would be limited. The 4000 locks great and seems to have nice routing options too. Inline 32 ch but a 40 frame, 6 Aux Sends. To me the console offers more than I would need. And the price is tempting.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 5, 2014 19:52:36 GMT -6
The D&R 4k sounds like a no brainer,buy it! I don't think there is a any other company other than Harrison that will support their old boards like D&R ! Plus your in Europe , so the support is even easier than here in the US, though D&R and its rep ,as DrBill will attest to, has been very impressive over here! I almost bought a Dayner, if it wouldn't have been a strange mixture of inline and split modules and the seller as flakey as his console layout I would have bought it! While I do think a JW tricked out Delta would be a touch cleaner, The routing on a real studio Desk will blow you away. If you can find a manual online you will see what separates the real studio desks from the 8 buss home studio kids! The Routing on the My Status always leaves the guys who have only worked on Mackies, Spirits ect with their jaws on the ground ! I hear " You have inserts on both the big and little fader?" "They both have dir outs!" "12 busses!" Just buy the thing!
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 6, 2014 11:38:08 GMT -6
Lucky me the console is still for sale. The owner told me that the connections where unbalanced? Can someone explain me that? A studio console with unbalanced connections??
He assured me it is fully recapped except a few knobs/buttons which make noise when used. He has for all the works bills.
Seems to be a fair seller....
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 6, 2014 12:38:53 GMT -6
Lucky me the console is still for sale. The owner told me that the connections where unbalanced? Can someone explain me that? A studio console with unbalanced connections?? He assured me it is fully recapped except a few knobs/buttons which make noise when used. He has for all the works bills. Seems to be a fair seller.... Short of spending 10 times what your spending, the vast majority of consoles ( including API's) are unbalanced internally so the why go through the extra circuitry or transformers to go from balanced to unbalanced and back? There is this huge pressure to assume balanced is always best, some times you have to look at the very big picture and realize that when it comes to over all expense that isn't so! I will also wager that every other console you have looked at other than the mic input and maybe a line input is unbalanced as well! Other than proper grounding of your Patchbays no big deal!
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Post by drbill on Sept 6, 2014 13:37:46 GMT -6
re: Unbalanced. I agree with ericn.
Bernie Grundman's mastering consoles were unbalanced. For good reason. Unbalanced = less circuitry and purer tone.
Balancing is for one reason only - easier and less problematic interfacing with the external world.
Unbalanced gear needs extra care to be taken with it's interfacing. Other than that, it can sound just as great as balanced gear.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 6, 2014 15:42:15 GMT -6
In other words I should not be afraid to do it. The seller advised me to send him a mail with questions about the console.
First time for me to buy such a big one. What should I ask for?
Questions which come to my mind. Maintenance will it be expensive? Power bill? Watts? Heat in the room? Is there a way to check if it is true that it has been recapped? Many questions for a hobbyist like me.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 6, 2014 16:21:26 GMT -6
You really can't tell how much matinance it's going to need. Power bill shouldn't be that much nor should the heat. As far as recap if you have to ask you really won't be able to tell.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 6, 2014 16:35:26 GMT -6
You really can't tell how much matinance it's going to need. Power bill shouldn't be that much nor should the heat. As far as recap if you have to ask you really won't be able to tell. In the end of the day I have to trust the seller, and I have no problem with this. The seller seems to be a nice guy who is not telling BS. The best is - he advised me to think about it a few days. Its a serious decision for me and I hope I won't regret it.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 6, 2014 18:28:38 GMT -6
If you can spend some time with the manual, also find a tech and if the seller will let you go through it with a single generator and find any problems before you buy!
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 6, 2014 19:40:28 GMT -6
If you can spend some time with the manual, also find a tech and if the seller will let you go through it with a single generator and find any problems before you buy! Great advise but it seems like that I won't see the console in person. I will let do the transport by a dispatcher. Good old trust and a long phone conversation should work out. We are not in blah blahh land in Germany, there are laws. If you sell an item like described it should be in this condition. I will sleep a night or two about it… lets see. If I buy it I will post pictures…
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Post by drbill on Sept 6, 2014 20:23:03 GMT -6
If you have questions, you might speak to Duco @ D&R in Weesp - Holland.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 6, 2014 20:52:11 GMT -6
If you have questions, you might speak to Duco @ D&R in Weesp - Holland. I can't sleep and I did read the full manual. Not understanding it all; but I was surprised about some clever routing options. Funny was that the headroom at mix down is with 22 db exactly the same as with the cheap A+H ZEDs of today. Given that it is true what the seller claims - fully recapped, refurbished PSU. How long does the caps and OP-Amps last till I have to do it again? My guesswork is that also the internal wiring will get old too at one day?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 6, 2014 20:59:14 GMT -6
Depends on the number of hours on it, the thing with a modular board is you don't have to do everything at once , if you hear a channel starting to sound different pull that module, redo it. If you can find a couple spare modules are worth their weight in gold.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 6, 2014 21:19:29 GMT -6
Depends on the number of hours on it, the thing with a modular board is you don't have to do everything at once , if you hear a channel starting to sound different pull that module, redo it. If you can find a couple spare modules are worth their weight in gold. You say it he delivers 4 spare modules which he did put out.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 6:36:56 GMT -6
Recapping should not be necessary anytime but in the far future if it has been done with nowadays quality electrolyte capacitors already. Modern caps are all "low ESR" and really longlife, compared to those of the 70's and 80's. And then, do it like Eric proposed. Fix only what is broken. That's a real benefit of modular consoles...
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Post by svart on Sept 8, 2014 8:49:24 GMT -6
If you have questions, you might speak to Duco @ D&R in Weesp - Holland. I can't sleep and I did read the full manual. Not understanding it all; but I was surprised about some clever routing options. Funny was that the headroom at mix down is with 22 db exactly the same as with the cheap A+H ZEDs of today. Given that it is true what the seller claims - fully recapped, refurbished PSU. How long does the caps and OP-Amps last till I have to do it again? My guesswork is that also the internal wiring will get old too at one day? Opamps will never "wear out". Caps will dry up eventually, but as Smallbutfine mentions, modern caps will not need replacement for a decade under normal conditions, unless something goes wrong with the circuit. Internal wiring.. Most consoles for the last 20-30 years have used PCBs rather than cables for most things. If the console has a cable to do something, it's mostly likely going to be OK for life, unless you have a problem. Here's another bit of advice.. Get a console because you need it, not because you expect it will improve something. Most folks have bought into the notion that a console will make your audio sound "better" somehow.. More "analog" or "warmer" or something like that, but the fact is that it's not going to turn any mediocre audio into something great, regardless of what name is on the console.. If you do that, you'll always be wondering if you made the right choice rather than enjoying your new mixer.. But if you need better routing options, or hardware inserts that don't have latency issues, more preamps/EQs/etc, or you need better monitoring capabilities, then get a console and enjoy.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 8, 2014 18:52:55 GMT -6
Very good point but no there was a need for more channels in mixing and I was thinking about the Mackie vs. my first move a ZED 420. In the end I decided against the D+R. The main reason is moving it, and that the specs of the Allen and Heath ZED 420 are too good for the given price - and I do like the sound. So it will be the A+H ZED 420. If I could say my mixes sound bad on my current ZED 14 I would say yes, but no - I do like them and friends like them too. Further more comes into play taht they have similar technical specs- except headroom.
Sure I could use the routing options and all this and I am sure I would love it. Fact is that I can route any hardware in the software of my DA to any channel on the console. In the end I just would buy the console to have some fun…. And for that it is not worth the trouble.
In my world more people should try to use a board, even if it is a cheap mixer like the ZEDs. They have a sound but I never said, in this thread, that they are magic tools. No tool can do any magic.
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