|
|
Post by indiehouse on Aug 15, 2014 7:45:20 GMT -6
How are you guys keeping the snare from being buried in a mix? Besides the kick/bass relationship, the next hardest thing that I struggle with in a mix is keeping the snare from being buried. I can get a pretty thumping drum buss going, but by the time I add in the rest of the elements, my snare is usually dull and buried.
What techniques do you use? Are you cutting frequencies on other tracks to make room for the snare?
|
|
|
|
Post by matt on Aug 15, 2014 8:00:19 GMT -6
Transient Designer can help by emphasizing the attack of each hit, but that's not all it can do. Highly recommended.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 15, 2014 8:22:35 GMT -6
My 2 cents, Get a very lively and almost too cutting snare sound during tracking, a common mistake is to tune a snare too low, or to sound like a finished record one may like whilst in the room, but when it's done going through the recording ringer of transformers/comp/bussing/effects, it's already eased edges have gotten so rounded over, it disappears.
hope this helps
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Aug 15, 2014 8:22:48 GMT -6
Lots of EQ and a well tuned snare. Once, CLA said in an interview, "If people knew how much 10K I added on snare.." Snare is one thing that sounds good solo'd but never sounds good in a mix without drastic EQ and compression.. Boost 7K-10K by a considerable amount. Boost some 2K sometimes, and boost the fundamental thump which resides somewhere around 175-225 in most well tuned snares. Cut some 300 and/or 600 to get rid of the muddy/boxy sound. What you want is for the specific overtones that define the snare to peak through the mix, but not the whole snare sound, which is very muddy by nature. Massive compression without consideration only reduces those overtones and brings up the mud. A good sounding snare in the mix will sound very strange when solo'd. tonycamphd I totally agree on the "almost too ringy" snare. There is a reason that black beauties and bell brass snares are go-to snares for a ton of artists in the studio. the high overtones peak out from the mix very well, but you have to be very careful about ringing control. |
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Aug 15, 2014 8:49:24 GMT -6
So you guys aren't cutting other tracks to make room for snare like you would for kick/bass?
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 15, 2014 9:04:37 GMT -6
I actually seem to have the opposite problem most of the time. The snare popping out too much. In my last demo mixes I'm finishing up, I used this...
I replaced the snare with trigger 2, then, since there's a mix knob, I usually mixed in the original snare until it was a great match between the two. Usually, it seemed to be about half and half. Then added a little more crack and top with EQ and usually bring out a little more "explosion" with an 1176 - taming the hits, faster release for more ring or slower release for more smack. I usually have the snare pretty loud in comparison to other pieces going into the Drum bus. Then I usually high pass the drum bus compressor letting the kick and toms come through and adjust how hard the bus compressor hits the snare. So - you have two compressors that can really shape the sound of your snare.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 15, 2014 9:05:17 GMT -6
So you guys aren't cutting other tracks to make room for snare like you would for kick/bass? For me not usually, snare generally shows up on 2/4, if you find something getting in the way, duck the offender with with a read forward key from the snare, i don't think compromising a sound in it's entirety with subtractive eq, for the sake of a snare that shows up on 2/4 is a good trade off. |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098 
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Aug 15, 2014 9:08:09 GMT -6
Easiest trick besides what is suggested above, mix as you go. Easier to get an idea of how the pieces fit if you put them together as you pull them out of the box!
The hardest thing to teach is that the greatest snare sound, greatest kick, bass guitar and vocal, are useless if they don't fit, its a mental thing and part of what makes the big boys the big boys.
Guess what? It's the one thing I hear lacking in the work of 95% of the guys coming out of recording schools. A guy with lots of Platinum, and a fist full of awards once told me he thought it was because these guys never had a philosophy class or an English comp course, they don't understand that the big picture is the product of lots of little pictures.
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Aug 15, 2014 9:08:15 GMT -6
Not in the sense that I do it purposefully, no. I read an interesting statement from Andy Sneap, that he cuts to fix an issue, but boosts to define something. I've taken that to heart and unlearned a lot of things I "learned" from the internet. in other words, I don't cut to make room. I only cut if there is specifically something wrong with a tone. I'll boost to make an instrument POP out.
Take a parametric EQ, set your Q for very narrow, boost it and sweep around until you find a frequency that jumps out at you. Investigate if that frequency is a problem, or if it's part of the tone of the instrument. Poorly recorded tracks will have strange problem frequencies that jump out at you, while well recorded ones will be more mellow and "boring" sounding.
Take E-guitar for example. E-guitar generally has a nice defining tone around 2Khz. One that has been recorded with the mic much too close to the speaker, or with too much amp midrange will have a 2K-ish region that is much too "pointy" and shrill and might need to be cut. An E-guitar track that is well recorded will allow you to boost 2K to define the guitar sound without resorting to cutting anything else.
Snares are very similar to this, with regions of EQ that define the sound. 200hz for the root note, 2K-ish for the head tone and 10Kish for the overtones and snare sizzle. Those regions give the snare the "snare" sound. The rest is just filler and the ear only needs a tiny amount of those for the brain to say "hey, that's a snare".
So, in boosting only those defining regions on each instrument, you are doing the same thing as cutting all the other regions.. Get it?
Compression and other effects are used to make the definition more pronounced. A short reverb on the snare can make it seem larger, without resorting to boosting more lows, mainly because the tail of the reverb allows the ear to hear it for longer, and thus it seems more pronounced, even though the level and dynamics have not changed.
It's such a balancing act, and I've not found there to be a single action you can perform that simply makes it work.
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Aug 15, 2014 9:12:22 GMT -6
There is also the problem of arrangements too. If your song has a bunch of heavy picking on the snare beats, both the snare and the picking will disappear into each other. Same for bass guitar. If the bassist and drummer are hitting at the same moments and the bassist is playing a note that is similar to the root of the snare, then you'll have trouble too. You'd have to change snare tones, change bass notes/scales, or find a different way to define each one.
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Aug 15, 2014 9:17:28 GMT -6
And one last one, automation. I think there are too many folks out there who set everything up during a single section of the song and then that's it.
The big boys use automation a lot more than we think, and a lot of them will use automation in lieu of compression, gating and other things.
If you have a snare tone that works in one part of the song but gets buried in another, try automating it up a couple dB and see if it comes back, or maybe automate the offending instrument down a couple dB during that time.
|
|
|
|
Post by matt on Aug 15, 2014 11:31:21 GMT -6
And one last one, automation. Yes. I have adopted this approach for just about every mix element, including for plugs. I draw right onto the relevant automation lane in PT. It can be a tedious process but results in precise edits. For me, the visual representation provided by the edit window helps. Ears first, of course, but editing "graphically" works for me very well. |
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 15, 2014 16:01:20 GMT -6
active mixes are the norm amongst top mixing engineers, static mixing is not.
|
|
|
|
Post by fishnmusician on Aug 15, 2014 17:58:15 GMT -6
I use a lot of side chained compression, mostly on gtr stereo stem out. When the snare hits, gtrs compress just enough to let the snare through and the gtrs are still in your face and a little more rhythmic. Same with lead vocal and gtrs, kick and bass gtr, and sometimes lead gtr compressing rhythm gtrs. Tweaking the parameters to get it all sounding natural, I dont have to write as much automation or work as hard to fit everything together with mostly eq.
Of course I do this in the DAW cause I've never owned enough comps with side chains. Its also easy to automate SC parameters in the DAW for different sections of a song.
|
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Aug 16, 2014 8:45:40 GMT -6
Thanks to everybody's contribution in this thread. Great information!
A question: When you guys say "snare" are you talking about a snare bus that shares both the top and bottom miced snares. Or, do you EQ/Compress (or not) the top and bottom separately?
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Aug 16, 2014 9:11:39 GMT -6
For me it's separate.
|
|
|
|
Post by unit7 on Aug 16, 2014 9:25:09 GMT -6
Thanks to everybody's contribution in this thread. Great information! A question: When you guys say "snare" are you talking about a snare bus that shares both the top and bottom miced snares. Or, do you EQ/Compress (or not) the top and bottom separately? I route both (top/btm) to one channel on my console, so I mainly process as one. But of course possible to process separately in PT if needed. Almost never happens though. |
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Aug 16, 2014 19:18:58 GMT -6
One of these days I'll invest in a decent camera capable of good video and can be synced up with the audio later and promise to do a tutorial on recording snare drums that are easy to do and sound like a record. But to put it in a nutshell... start with a great sounding snare that has overtones ringing out its arse! Lots of sproing and spring and ping will make it cut through a mix and those overtones will not stand out in a fairly dense mix either. They'll blend rght in and give the snare its voice. Next. 3 mics. 3 channels. 2 1176s. 1. SDC. My favorite is a C460 with the ring adapter and a CK1 capsule (from a C451) into a really open sounding preamp (Focusrite Red 6 with some EQ cutting everything below 120hs, a little broadband cut around 500hz and about 3db shelf from 6 or 8 khz up) or a Grace into an 1176 getting about 6db compression on hits. 2. Dynamic. My fave is a T-Funk M80 going into a 1073 pre or Vintech X73 with about 6db of 10Kadded to it... into an 1176 getting about 6db compression on hits. 3. 441 (there is no substitute for this) on the bottom head about 3" below the center of the drum aimed almost straight up, just a 5º angle into another 1073 or Vintech 73 without any compression. Mix on playback straight through to mixing is Snare 1 at -2.9 Snare 2 at -4.9 to -5.6 and Snare 3 (bottom) at -6.9 Edit: Pictures attached. Recording snare for.... Pretty stock method. Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Aug 16, 2014 21:31:27 GMT -6
One of these days I'll invest in a decent camera capable of good video and can be synced up with the audio later and promise to do a tutorial on recording snare drums that are easy to do and sound like a record. But to put it in a nutshell... start with a great sounding snare that has overtones ringing out its arse! Lots of sproing and spring and ping will make it cut through a mix and those overtones will not stand out in a fairly dense mix either. They'll blend rght in and give the snare its voice. Next. 3 mics. 3 channels. 2 1176s. 1. SDC. My favorite is a C460 with the ring adapter and a CK1 capsule (from a C451) into a really open sounding preamp (Focusrite Red 6 with some EQ cutting everything below 120hs, a little broadband cut around 500hz and about 3db shelf from 6 or 8 khz up) or a Grace into an 1176 getting about 6db compression on hits. 2. Dynamic. My fave is a T-Funk M80 going into a 1073 pre or Vintech X73 with about 6db of 10Kadded to it... into an 1176 getting about 6db compression on hits. 3. 441 (there is no substitute for this) on the bottom head about 3" below the center of the drum aimed almost straight up, just a 5º angle into another 1073 or Vintech 73 without any compression. Mix on playback straight through to mixing is Snare 1 at -2.9 Snare 2 at -4.9 to -5.6 and Snare 3 (bottom) at -6.9 Edit: Pictures attached. Recording snare for a certain Christian Metal band from SoCal. Pretty stock method. Is the m80 really that good? How different is it from others? I've tried a bunch of others. Use the m201 if you want a pointed middle and no bass. Use the I5 if you want more cymbals than snare in your snare mic. I've gone back to the 57 once again. At least it's not very sensitive so it rejects some cymbals and it has decent enough bass.. |
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 16, 2014 21:49:18 GMT -6
One of these days I'll invest in a decent camera capable of good video and can be synced up with the audio later and promise to do a tutorial on recording snare drums that are easy to do and sound like a record. But to put it in a nutshell... start with a great sounding snare that has overtones ringing out its arse! Lots of sproing and spring and ping will make it cut through a mix and those overtones will not stand out in a fairly dense mix either. They'll blend rght in and give the snare its voice. Next. 3 mics. 3 channels. 2 1176s. 1. SDC. My favorite is a C460 with the ring adapter and a CK1 capsule (from a C451) into a really open sounding preamp (Focusrite Red 6 with some EQ cutting everything below 120hs, a little broadband cut around 500hz and about 3db shelf from 6 or 8 khz up) or a Grace into an 1176 getting about 6db compression on hits. 2. Dynamic. My fave is a T-Funk M80 going into a 1073 pre or Vintech X73 with about 6db of 10Kadded to it... into an 1176 getting about 6db compression on hits. 3. 441 (there is no substitute for this) on the bottom head about 3" below the center of the drum aimed almost straight up, just a 5º angle into another 1073 or Vintech 73 without any compression. Mix on playback straight through to mixing is Snare 1 at -2.9 Snare 2 at -4.9 to -5.6 and Snare 3 (bottom) at -6.9 Edit: Pictures attached. Recording snare for a certain Christian Metal band from SoCal. Pretty stock method. Is the m80 really that good? How different is it from others? I've tried a bunch of others. Use the m201 if you want a pointed middle and no bass. Use the I5 if you want more cymbals than snare in your snare mic. I've gone back to the 57 once again. At least it's not very sensitive so it rejects some cymbals and it has decent enough bass.. I've been using the 57 over the m201 on snare too, but hand been interested in the Tele's for snare and live vox. Interested in your ( Ward) thoughts on snare and how they compare with a 58 or sennheiser for vox. |
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Aug 16, 2014 23:39:22 GMT -6
When I'm mixing stuff I didn't track and it's having problems, I'll generally add my own homebrew snare sample and then tune it to the actual snare and do maybe like a 75/25 of replaced/original. Then I'll put a UAD dbx 160 on a parallel bus below that, put it's compression at like 4:1 and really only knocking about -6db off. Then I will make another parallel track below that and put decapitator. This is where I get my cut from if it's really buried.
I'll first start with a mix of all the drums, getting everything punchy as hell and cracking as best I can before I touch those parallel tracks, those come when the drums are put into the mix. Then I will start pulling up all my other tracks and get a decent balance, making sure that I have any snare reverb, and room emulation going as well. When I feel like I've got a good board mix going and the vocal and bass where they need to be I will go in and listen to see if I need to add any thump in the bottom of the snare, and any crack in the 7k-10k. If this still doesn't make the snare cut then I will start to bring up the parallel track with the 160 on it, that usually adds some heft and kind of a woody thud with some pop. That will usually help to push the snare through a little more, but if it still just isn't coming through I will then start pulling up the decapitator track very very slowly until there is a good blend of crack, warmth, and power. If it doesn't cut after doing that then go check out the bass..... sometimes I might go there and dip some 200hz and 900hz out of the bass and a lot of times that gives the snare some room as well.
You've really got to get a kick ass drum sound first if you know the mix is going to be really dense, it's got to be really punchy and snappy. It may take you a good while in getting that sound going too, but a shortcut that has become sort of a habit is I will have the bass going while I'm getting my drum mix. That helps me with the kick to bass response, but also lets me know if the bass is getting in the way of the snare as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Aug 17, 2014 3:32:54 GMT -6
Is the m80 really that good? How different is it from others? SNIP... been interested in the Tele's for snare and live vox. Interested in your ( Ward) thoughts on snare and how they compare with a 58 or sennheiser for vox. Well, it's punchier than a condensor and has better crack than a 57 and the high end extension is a lot like a Sennheiser 441. It's just clear. A 57 is a microphone that has a summer cold or allergy nose thing going on. The M80 is like a 57 that has been healed. HEALED, Praise God! Fantastic for live vocals too... same deal comparing to the atrocious 58. |
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Aug 17, 2014 8:32:53 GMT -6
Thanks to everybody's contribution in this thread. Great information! A question: When you guys say "snare" are you talking about a snare bus that shares both the top and bottom miced snares. Or, do you EQ/Compress (or not) the top and bottom separately? I route both (top/btm) to one channel on my console, so I mainly process as one. But of course possible to process separately in PT if needed. Almost never happens though. Thanks Paul. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 17, 2014 17:02:57 GMT -6
Yeah - I generally use the bottom snare alone and just bring it up with the processed top snare to taste. To add a little crack and sizzle. Don't know if that's "right" but that's just how I've done it.
In the last two mixes I've done, I've used trigger 2 with a lot of success. It has the mix control and I usually ended up about 50%. This has done awesome things with the kick and really taken away some of the bleed from the snare. Then some UAD 1073 and 1176. Beautiful.
|
|
mhep
Full Member
Posts: 36
|
Post by mhep on Aug 18, 2014 1:17:09 GMT -6
For top snare I'm going for attitude, smack, and ring. I'll mult it and put a heavy gate and careful EQ on the second. Quick and unnatural. Then I'll put reverb on the mult until it sounds like it's not stopping abruptly. First track gets compressed to emphasize the ring a bit, then EQ to gently pull it back while pushing the top. Time now for the bottom mic. Double check polarity, then cut a bit of mud and push a bit for sizzle and rattle.
TRACKING: don't deaden the ringing while tracking if the snare's even halfway decent. If the snare sounds like balls on a cowbell, then you need to get a new snare in there. You're not doing a service by tracking terrible sounds. On a decent, tuned snare you are doing a terrible disservice by deadening it, though.
|
|
