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Post by gouge on Aug 18, 2014 3:17:55 GMT -6
I deaden the snare. Love it fat with splat. I also use mainly bottom mic in my top /bottom mix
I do like some ringing in shallower snares but find overly ringing snares just bug me at mix time and I'm not into having to eq stuff to fix it. I Don't use samples either. So I guess I'm looking for something different to most of the responses so far.
I do tend to add a little around 8k. Fav mics are m201 on ringy snares and atm450 on deep snares with ksm137 under on both.
Purple action sounds great on snare. Seems to hpf as well.
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Post by gouge on Aug 18, 2014 3:57:19 GMT -6
Turn it up or turn something else down
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Post by jasonkingsland on Aug 19, 2014 0:29:16 GMT -6
Whoa whoa whoa... Signed up here to download some 1176 clips, but was reading this and felt a need to post. How do you get a get a snare to cut?
BALANCE.
And not just turning up and down the snare top mic. Or bottom mic for that matter.
Remember the snare is not an instrument. Its a component of a larger system. Albeit an important one.
So. Next time you start a mix listen to your whole drum blend (Close mics, overheads, ambient mics, junk mics, whatever). Maybe with some parallel compression on if thats your thing.
Dial a drum blend you like. However ambient, dry, what have you, so long as you like it.
DON'T EQ THE DRUMS!! If you're have these kind of issues you're probably having trouble hearing what your eq is doing in a mix.
Get a quick blend of the instruments that you like.
DON'T EQ YOUR INSTRUMENTS. JUST LISTEN.
Does it sound bad? Did your snare drum go away?
If the answer is yes, pull the instrument faders down and start again.
Find a balance with no eq that works.
Now. How does your snare sound?
Dark, muffled, vapid??? Harsh, bright??
If its the first one. Re-examine your drum blend.
Let's quickly detour and think about drum mics. What are they doing?
To me:
Close mics- main goal is to fill in the frequency response gaps in other more "image" (overheads, rooms). More lowend, more mid detail. Not really that great at the pure top end thing though.
Makes sense. Probably the only mics on the kit that are generating any appreciable amount of proximity effect.
Overheads- Imaging if in stereo, also one of the main "photos" of the cymbals (our truest nature occurring top end of anything in the mix). Generally these mics are more sensitive and wider frequency response than any other set of mics on the kit. Again not alway, but generally.
Rooms- Some imaging, some ambience, can have some punch, but also very linked to the acoustic space you're recording. Usually a more compact frequency response than the overheads.
Back to our snare. Its muddy. Its not cutting through. Sounds almost like my ear is just sitting on the drum.
So we could EQ it. Add some sparkle. So we eq'ed it. Now it sounds a little processed. Like a linn drum. Ok. Let's turn off the eq.
We do have this snare bottom mic.. It definitely adds some definition. But the "crack" frequencies still sound bunched up and compact.
If only someone had the foresight to record a picture of the snare didn't have as much proximity. Some close enough to have some impact in the mids but not a full bottom.
Wait... Wait.. Ahhh... Yes... The overheads!!! Let's turn that up!!
Now our snare has this really nature sounding bite with out getting eq'ed. Its almost like we're using our balance to eq! CAUSE WE ARE!!
Other way around. Snare sounds to bright.
LISTEN TO THE BALANCE. Is it bright to begin with?? Cool! Balance the other instruments in a way that doesn't bring focus to the lows of the snare.
All I'm getting around to is this.
EQs a fun and sexy if you have a nice one. DON'T MIX A SONG WITH THE EQ. Mix it with the blend. Use the eq to help reinforce your decisions.
Anywho, hope thats lucid. I've just done a 14 hour session, I'm not.
-Jason
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 19, 2014 4:58:44 GMT -6
Whoa whoa whoa... Signed up here to download some 1176 clips, but was reading this and felt a need to post. How do you get a get a snare to cut? BALANCE. And not just turning up and down the snare top mic. Or bottom mic for that matter. Remember the snare is not an instrument. Its a component of a larger system. Albeit an important one. So. Next time you start a mix listen to your whole drum blend (Close mics, overheads, ambient mics, junk mics, whatever). Maybe with some parallel compression on if thats your thing. Dial a drum blend you like. However ambient, dry, what have you, so long as you like it. DON'T EQ THE DRUMS!! If you're have these kind of issues you're probably having trouble hearing what your eq is doing in a mix. Get a quick blend of the instruments that you like. DON'T EQ YOUR INSTRUMENTS. JUST LISTEN. Does it sound bad? Did your snare drum go away? If the answer is yes, pull the instrument faders down and start again. Find a balance with no eq that works. Now. How does your snare sound? Dark, muffled, vapid??? Harsh, bright?? If its the first one. Re-examine your drum blend. Let's quickly detour and think about drum mics. What are they doing? To me: Close mics- main goal is to fill in the frequency response gaps in other more "image" (overheads, rooms). More lowend, more mid detail. Not really that great at the pure top end thing though. Makes sense. Probably the only mics on the kit that are generating any appreciable amount of proximity effect. Overheads- Imaging if in stereo, also one of the main "photos" of the cymbals (our truest nature occurring top end of anything in the mix). Generally these mics are more sensitive and wider frequency response than any other set of mics on the kit. Again not alway, but generally. Rooms- Some imaging, some ambience, can have some punch, but also very linked to the acoustic space you're recording. Usually a more compact frequency response than the overheads. Back to our snare. Its muddy. Its not cutting through. Sounds almost like my ear is just sitting on the drum. So we could EQ it. Add some sparkle. So we eq'ed it. Now it sounds a little processed. Like a linn drum. Ok. Let's turn off the eq. We do have this snare bottom mic.. It definitely adds some definition. But the "crack" frequencies still sound bunched up and compact. If only someone had the foresight to record a picture of the snare didn't have as much proximity. Some close enough to have some impact in the mids but not a full bottom. Wait... Wait.. Ahhh... Yes... The overheads!!! Let's turn that up!! Now our snare has this really nature sounding bite with out getting eq'ed. Its almost like we're using our balance to eq! CAUSE WE ARE!! Other way around. Snare sounds to bright. LISTEN TO THE BALANCE. Is it bright to begin with?? Cool! Balance the other instruments in a way that doesn't bring focus to the lows of the snare. All I'm getting around to is this. EQs a fun and sexy if you have a nice one. DON'T MIX A SONG WITH THE EQ. Mix it with the blend. Use the eq to help reinforce your decisions. Anywho, hope thats lucid. I've just done a 14 hour session, I'm not. -Jason I was under the impression that the question was more about if you get a nice balance of everything and it's still not cutting. More for mixing when the tracks weren't recorded as well as one would like. Otherwise, I'm with you, getting the drum balance to work and sound good without effects is great. |
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Post by svart on Aug 19, 2014 7:55:37 GMT -6
Balance is always a given, but balance changes through songs. Tone is important too, but doesn't change as much, that's why I focus on tone first and then use automation to move things up and down to keep a balance going through the mix.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 11:07:39 GMT -6
Hey man, I personally think this is one area of my recording and mixing that I actually have the hang of and you might not like the answer.
The drummer is the most important part and tuning is the other. Tony said to tune the snare up and this is what I always suggest as well. Tune it way up and have a drummer hit it hard with a rimshot and it will cut through no problem. I use a Pearl Piccolo on a lot of my stuff and it works really well. As far as compression and EQ go, sweep for ugly stuff and boost where you here the thump. I like the transmod from sonnox, or the SSL channel plugin compressor.
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Post by fishnmusician on Aug 21, 2014 22:31:26 GMT -6
I agree with others about ring is a beautiful thing. Sometimes I add ring by sweeping eq to find the ring and boost it. Transient Designer does this well too and can add sustain. Of course comps can do this and add texture to make it cut. Lately been been using a PBC-6A to mangle some texture out of the snare.
Some engineers cry that my drums have to much ring and tape the shit out of them. Guess what the mix sounds like? No ring.
I play conventional grip and only hit rim shots for effect, so I've gone to 13" snares to get a good cutting pop. I have a Brady 13x5 jarrah block that will tear your head clean off.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 22, 2014 23:04:54 GMT -6
I'm going to have to try that 3 mic technique, I've only ever used a single microphone. I'm starting to see how good condensers can sound on drums though, and I bet the bottom of the drum has a lot of tone to be heard. Cool stuff.
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Post by svart on Aug 23, 2014 7:57:27 GMT -6
I'm going to have to try that 3 mic technique, I've only ever used a single microphone. I'm starting to see how good condensers can sound on drums though, and I bet the bottom of the drum has a lot of tone to be heard. Cool stuff. I've done it. It's hard. Another 3 mic technique is to mic the top, side and bottom. The side can be cool but it can also be hard due to bleed. Try micing the airhole in the shell. Do it 45deg off axis so that the air blasts don't hit the mic directly and you'll get a very filtered sound from the snare wires. Also, I've stopped using condensors as the bottom mic. Too much high frequency trashy sounds. I use a 57, again, on top AND bottom. For the bottom I use the "gated white noise" and a whole lot of EQ to get a cleaner high frequency fizz than a condenser under the snare could ever possibly get you. |
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Post by Ward on Aug 23, 2014 10:29:21 GMT -6
For the bottom I use the "gated white noise" and a whole lot of EQ to get a cleaner high frequency fizz than a condenser under the snare could ever possibly get you. 'White' noise? You race hustling there, foo? Johnkenn will get the inside joke. |
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Post by svart on Aug 23, 2014 11:34:27 GMT -6
For the bottom I use the "gated white noise" and a whole lot of EQ to get a cleaner high frequency fizz than a condenser under the snare could ever possibly get you. 'White' noise? You race hustling there, foo? Johnkenn will get the inside joke. White Noise? It's just like Brown noise, but makes more money. Good thing I'm only half white, or else I'd hate my whole self for that one. |
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Post by Ward on Aug 23, 2014 12:43:31 GMT -6
Don't worry, you're not the only 'Half-Breed' here.  |
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Post by svart on Aug 23, 2014 17:51:27 GMT -6
Don't worry, you're not the only 'Half-Breed' here. They always said that mutts are the best breed! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2014 22:07:40 GMT -6
Wow this got kinda bad.
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Post by svart on Aug 25, 2014 7:26:48 GMT -6
Not really. Just me and Ward having some fun poking at ourselves. |
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Post by drumrec on Aug 29, 2014 16:33:51 GMT -6
How are you guys keeping the snare from being buried in a mix? Besides the kick/bass relationship, the next hardest thing that I struggle with in a mix is keeping the snare from being buried. I can get a pretty thumping drum buss going, but by the time I add in the rest of the elements, my snare is usually dull and buried. What techniques do you use? Are you cutting frequencies on other tracks to make room for the snare? Wow, what a nice thread with so much useful tips. Feel I have no reasonable tipps after reading all good tipps in the thread. The boring answer is, a well tuned snare being treated right will sound good in the mix, boring but true  |
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Post by Ward on Aug 30, 2014 7:16:36 GMT -6
Snares punch at 250, breath at 800 crack at 3K and snap at 5-8k. They should do that naturally. If not, you know where to look to bring that out. |
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 30, 2014 9:02:47 GMT -6
Most often I mix fake drums? Does it count? Anyway I find myself adding some extra saturation to the snare when I have found the overall balance.
Another questions comes to mind do you bring in the snare later? If yes, mix from start on with it.
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Post by Ward on Aug 30, 2014 9:48:39 GMT -6
Well, that's starting to go into another topic we have discussed here, which is mix approach. It can be surmised that the most important elements in today's mixes are:
1. Vocal
2. Kick
3. Snare
4. Bass
5. hook instrumental lines
6. backing instruments.
YMMV
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Post by swurveman on Aug 30, 2014 11:31:05 GMT -6
Well, that's starting to go into another topic we have discussed here, which is mix approach. It can be surmised that the most important elements in today's mixes are: 1. Vocal 2. Kick 3. Snare 4. Bass 5. hook instrumental lines 6. backing instruments. YMMV I think it depends on the band, the producer, the label and the audience. I give you Exhibit A and B: |
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Post by drumrec on Aug 30, 2014 13:09:13 GMT -6
Ran on this awesome 80's snare today that I had to buy. Will be seeking help for my snare collects fetish soon! First I change snare batter and put on "Pure Sound" snare string, then it may go into the studio tracking. It is an old Pearl Free Floating Brass Snare 14x6.5 ". mrholmes Agree, I often use Drive (HF Enhancer) SSL plug "drumstrip" around 7k on the snare instead of regular eq, always works;)  |
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Post by Ward on Aug 30, 2014 14:21:32 GMT -6
I'm just generalizing on what I hear - across the board - in most popular music forms these days from rap to rock to country and all variations thereof.
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