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Post by Dan on Nov 2, 2024 8:21:21 GMT -6
Tube amp had more gain. At least in the first example. yeah you’re right there. More saturation. Less crunch. Knob values are different on the plug. And on different amps and pots can be way different. Video maker didn’t tweak by ear to make them sound largely the same. Like put the tone stack knobs all the way up and turn them down because they’re passive filters type of stuff. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 2, 2024 8:26:22 GMT -6
fizzy highs: what typically puts me off amp sims: ua tweed, sucked that way
Dream and ruby: seem usable, lion juries out for me, in the ua Demo video, the background track on blonde strat at beginning I really like, all the les Paul humbuckers, didn’t do much for me.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 2, 2024 8:30:21 GMT -6
in that guy’s video it is. It’s on by default in the plug. Low gain boost models an EP booster. You think UAD wants to start off some random user with a straight plexi who expects screech and that staticy crunch? Same reason the softube amp room opens with some crazy elaborately processed setup and the neuraldsp models almost all have the acidic gain, fizzy highs, and the note compression sounds like a high gain amp set to sorta sound like one with less gain because that’s what the users expect. The boost on the plug is NOT on in the video until they talk about turning it on at 16:28. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 2, 2024 8:31:45 GMT -6
All depends on your pickups…my strat and tele are fine straight up. If I want super clean on the LP, I pull the input down. It's that easy. But apparently, that's rocket science for the internet. All of this is just effing perplexing to me. This thing is amazing…but I’m done convincing people. My guess is most people making sweeping judgements have no experience with the real thing, because if they did, they wouldn’t say the ridiculous things they say. Edit - I’m not picking on people here…I’m saying across the internet. |
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Post by phantom on Nov 2, 2024 8:44:33 GMT -6
Tube amp had more gain. At least in the first example. yeah you’re right there. More saturation. Less crunch. Knob values are different on the plug. And on different amps and pots can be way different. Video maker didn’t tweak by ear to make them sound largely the same. Like put the tone stack knobs all the way up and turn them down because they’re passive filters type of stuff. Video maker did nothing to call this a comparison. I mean, the video is useful and all, but more like a walkthrought. A hands on. But Youtube these days... you have to make a "comparison" or "tier list" or wathever gets clicks. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 2, 2024 9:53:14 GMT -6
Given veggy’s measurement of latency differences between pedals and plugs and guitar guy not saying anything about feel differences, I took video with grain of salt: was more interested in sonic differences between plugs and pedal.
Thought pedal had edge but wasn’t 3-400% better which is current price differential.
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Post by Dan on Nov 2, 2024 10:42:17 GMT -6
in that guy’s video it is. It’s on by default in the plug. Low gain boost models an EP booster. You think UAD wants to start off some random user with a straight plexi who expects screech and that staticy crunch? Same reason the softube amp room opens with some crazy elaborately processed setup and the neuraldsp models almost all have the acidic gain, fizzy highs, and the note compression sounds like a high gain amp set to sorta sound like one with less gain because that’s what the users expect. The boost on the plug is NOT on in the video until they talk about turning it on at 16:28. Yeah you’re right. Missed the dot being lit like an idiot and the model is just being hit hotter because of the gainstaging of the plug being for Apollos with no di gain. Just being hit hotter. Honestly even that is perfectly usable, just a bit more hard rock. If anyone cannot get a good tone out of these, or the earlier uad plexi uad don’t have the native rights to, they just suck. It’s like when guys criticize the 2210, jcm 900, valvestates, and jcm 2000. They sound fine. The guys playing them just suck and I wouldn’t want to own a valvestate or jcm 2000 longterm for repair reasons. If they don’t like the diode clipper, sell the amp! |
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Post by Dan on Nov 2, 2024 10:46:29 GMT -6
Given veggy’s measurement of latency differences between pedals and plugs and guitar guy not saying anything about feel differences, I took video with grain of salt: was more interested in sonic differences between plugs and pedal. Thought pedal had edge but wasn’t 3-400% better which is current price differential. Plugin is being hit hotter than the pedal. They’re the same algorithms. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 2, 2024 10:51:06 GMT -6
Yea, the variation in the shoot out is problematic but veggie measures latency and plug in was much higher. I was more listening for the sim sizzle you referred to !  |
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Post by veggieryan on Nov 2, 2024 11:09:06 GMT -6
Also the plugins have the potential to sound MUCH better if you use a quality DI and converter. For example when I use the excellent DI on my Empirical Labs Lil Freq into my JCF AD8 converter the plugin sounds MUCH better than using the hi-z input on my Apollo X6 which I have always found disappointing. I also read some people on the gear page forums using the tube screamer plugin in Apollo console in bypass mode to improve the sound going into the Dream plugin. Hopefully the DI is better on the Gen 2 Apollos. I am seeing some reports that the AD and headphone amps do sound noticeably better on the Gen 2 which has always been my biggest complaint on my X6.
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Post by veggieryan on Nov 2, 2024 11:14:57 GMT -6
Also think about this: if you are thinking of chaining several digital pedals then using the plugin versions instead has the potential to have much lower latency on a good interface. You also avoid several redundant AD to DA conversion passes which always sucks some life out of your tone. For this reason alone I was hoping Strymon or UA would release a large multi-fx pedal. Now that there are plugin versions this problem is solved at least in the studio.
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Post by veggieryan on Nov 2, 2024 11:40:19 GMT -6
Yea, the variation in the shoot out is problematic but veggie measures latency and plug in was much higher. I was more listening for the sim sizzle you referred to ! I think there is a some confusion with samples of latency vs ms or milliseconds of latency. Example: Dream has 75 samples of latency. At 96 khz that adds 75/96,000 = 0.7 ms of latency. (Samples divided by sample rate equals delay in seconds) The pedal is around 2 ms latency. The plugin has the potential to be similar latency on a good interface. When you start chaining devices the latency can be much lower on a good interface versus chaining several digital pedals like so many of us do. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 2, 2024 11:45:28 GMT -6
Thank you, so while different, the ms’s wouldn’t create a “feel” difference for the player between real amp, pedal and plug ?
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Post by veggieryan on Nov 2, 2024 11:56:46 GMT -6
Thank you, so while different, the ms’s wouldn’t create a “feel” difference for the player between real amp, pedal and plug ? Sensitive players start to notice around 5 ms total latency while others are fine closer to 10 ms latency. Monitoring on headphones makes you more sensitive to latency vs speakers. Keep in mind the Dream plugin is much better latency then the pedal if you are monitoring through a DAW because the pedal always adds 2 ms on top of your interface versus 0.7 ms at 96 kHz for the plugin. The Lion and Ruby plugins are 1.4 ms and 1.5 ms latency versus around 2.4 ms on the pedals, probably due to the room algo. "Feel" for me is also much better when using a quality DI which the plugin allows you to do. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 2, 2024 14:36:30 GMT -6
Went to buy and now my $25 off coupon isn’t recognized, guess it was a bug a couple of days ago: oh well ! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 2, 2024 16:16:44 GMT -6
Went to buy and now my $25 off coupon isn’t recognized, guess it was a bug a couple of days ago: oh well ! I can’t remember the last time I got a coupon…although, TBF I haven’t bought anything in a long time. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 2, 2024 16:27:55 GMT -6
It took a week to sort my ua connect problem, caused by me having multiple ua email accounts and screwing up the ilok link. While sorting that out, they accidentally registered me somehow as a new Apollo owner and I got a survey, so I gave them an earful, signed off as Quint and got a $25 thank you coupon ! |
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Nov 2, 2024 17:31:21 GMT -6
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Post by Henry_Berg on Nov 2, 2024 18:13:44 GMT -6
Thank you, so while different, the ms’s wouldn’t create a “feel” difference for the player between real amp, pedal and plug ? Sensitive players start to notice around 5 ms total latency while others are fine closer to 10 ms latency. Monitoring on headphones makes you more sensitive to latency vs speakers. Keep in mind the Dream plugin is much better latency then the pedal if you are monitoring through a DAW because the pedal always adds 2 ms on top of your interface versus 0.7 ms at 96 kHz for the plugin. The Lion and Ruby plugins are 1.4 ms and 1.5 ms latency versus around 2.4 ms on the pedals, probably due to the room algo. "Feel" for me is also much better when using a quality DI which the plugin allows you to do. THX for those latency numbers. Do you know what's the roundtrip latency of the X apollos? I'm in some other city at the moment, away from my apollo 8x, but have always used its Console app, so I never had to deal with their latency, which I believe is not that stellar, compared to MOTU, RME, etc, maybe it was around 4.5ms roundtrip at 44.1 at the lowest buffer, which was maybe 32? Im speaking of memory. That would mean that the X apollos would be at least 6ms latency running the Dream 65 plugin, at 44.1 which is not that great (to me), well at least you can halve that, running sessions at 88 or 96 (have never bothered with 96khz yet) I know €119 for the 3 amps with the new offer, is quite a bargain, considering how much the real pedals cost, but I own like 100 UAD plugins, bought through the years at high €€ prices, and don't use more than 20 of them, I'm kind of sick of buying plugins I never use I'm currently on a MBP M1 MAX 32MB and an Apollo x8. Im about to hit the BUY button, the amps sound really good on the demos and are perfect for apartments, rather than my amps, I'm only concerned with the final latency. I've always used 44.1 or 48. Johnkenn, you say you're OK playing at 128 buffer, through an X6 apollo I believe? (LUNA, Logic, PT?) . Are you running your sessions at 96Khz or 48khz? thx!! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 2, 2024 19:44:28 GMT -6
Haven’t watched it yet…but I have Helix Native and I just don’t think it’s close. |
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Post by seawell on Nov 2, 2024 22:45:06 GMT -6
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Nov 3, 2024 0:18:12 GMT -6
Haven’t watched it yet…but I have Helix Native and I just don’t think it’s close. That's fair. Do you use the same IRs when comparing? I only ask because I'm not a massive helix fan (I do have the stomp for small gigs), but the native IRs aren't great and let the whole system down imo. I also don't gel with the interface which is the reason I normally use neural plugins. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 3, 2024 4:12:11 GMT -6
Bingo
“
I know €119 for the 3 amps with the new offer, is quite a bargain, considering how much the real pedals cost, but I own like 100 UAD plugins, bought through the years at high €€ prices, and don't use more than 20 of them, I'm kind of sick of buying plugins I never use”
I’ve been vacillating as I have amp sims in logic, ended up using them on last track, that I started with the ua one’s, but lost due to demo ending (lost a week ) due to the ua connect problem.
Get this, UA can’t reset demos, you’d have to create a new ilok ua account to get new demo:pita.
I am also thinking about a new m4 mini and am about $700 shy, so do I really want to buy ua amp sims?
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 3, 2024 4:15:41 GMT -6
Subscription,($13 monthly, $120 ish annually) no thx. Says try or buy, but I saw no perpetual license buy option: is there one? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 3, 2024 8:33:09 GMT -6
Subscription,($13 monthly, $120 ish annually) no thx. Says try or buy, but I saw no perpetual license buy option: is there one? You can buy a perpetual license…but it really seems more high gain focused. |
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Post by phantom on Nov 3, 2024 9:03:11 GMT -6
Good video. And I do believe that they sound close. But Ruby is still efortless the better tone there imo (and John seems to agree overall). And the minute you start chasing that sound on other modelers, it gets complicated. I don't think John made the best job he could, his helix tone after the eq he put to get closer to Ruby sounded a bit too processed to my ears. Now, off screen, with more time, I bet he could make both sound identical. But it's so much work. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 3, 2024 9:13:08 GMT -6
Good video. And I do believe that they sound close. But Ruby is still efortless the better tone there imo (and John seems to agree overall). And the minute you start chasing that sound on other modelers, it gets complicated. I don't think John made the best job he could, his helix tone after the eq he put to get closer to Ruby sounded a bit too processed to my ears. Now, off screen, with more time, I bet he could make both sound identical. But it's so much work. I’m gonna try this myself. I mean - I’ve owned Helix Native for years and tried to get along with it. It can sound ok with the right IRs. The ones included didn’t do much for me at all. I also haven’t tried different IRs with the UA plugs…because I didn’t feel like I needed to. But that Line 6 GUI is just horrendous. Just awful. I’d MUCH rather have a skewmorphic look. I’m actually using HN for effects, though. |
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Post by seawell on Nov 3, 2024 10:44:25 GMT -6
Subscription,($13 monthly, $120 ish annually) no thx. Says try or buy, but I saw no perpetual license buy option: is there one? I guess that's one way of looking at it but if you buy the 3 UA models, you get 3 amps for $450(on sale half off, $900 regular price). You can buy AmpHub outright($99) plus 3 models for $49 each and still be way less than UA. Personally, I still use real amps on most projects but when amp sims are needed I subscribe 1 month at a time and end up paying $26-$39 range per year for all this: • Big Cat Sphynx V2: Bad Cat© LYNX™ V2 50W • Blackhole Arcturus 100: Blackstar™ Artisan™ 100 • Bogart Ultrasonic Blue: Bogner™ Uberschall™ • Brit J1 2084: Marshall™ JMP1™ / Marshall™ EL84 20/20 • Brit J45: Marshall® JTM45® • Brit J800: Marshall® JCM800® 2203 • Brit Plex: Marshall® Super Lead 100® • Burner Excel Ltd: Brunetti™ XL R-Evo™ Limited Edition • Cali Dual Rect 2 Ch: Mesa Boogie® Dual Rectifier 2 Channel® • Eagle 53: Engl™ 530 preamp & Engl™ Fireball™ poweramp • Eagle Fire 60: Engl™ Fireball™ 60 • Eagle Power V1: ENGL® Powerball® 1 • Eddy 5153: Fender® EVH® 5150 III • Emissary: Ignite Amps® Emissary® • Fenix Bass 1959: Fender® Bassmann® 5F6-A • Fenix Brown Combo: Fender® Deluxe® 6G3 • Fenix HR Ville 1996 Combo: Fender® DeVille™ 410 USA • Forbid Symbol: Fortin™ Sigil™ • Frantic Drachen: Framus® • Frantic Kobra: Framus® Cobra • Gasoline Herbie V3: Diezel® Herbert III™ • Hotwatt Doctor 103: Hiwatt™ DR103® Custom 100 • Ignite Amps Graviton: Custom Bass Amp • Krater Dimed Plus: Krank™ Krankenstein+® • Krater Ravage 1: Krank™ Revolution® 1 • Lab Mr Hectic: Laboga™ Mr Hector™ • Lancaster VR100: Laney™ VH100R™ • Meridian 31: Peavey™ 3120™ • Meridian 65 Plus: Peavey™ 6505 Plus™ • Meridian 65: Peavey™ 6505™ • Meridian Class 30: Peavey® Classic 30® • Meridian XSr: Peavey™ JSX™ • Origin Dual Black 50: Orange® Dual Dark 50® • Origin Rocker MK1: Orange® Rockerverb MK1® • Pyros Archean V2 50: PRS™ Archon™ • Pyros Tremor 15: PRS™ MT15® • Randy El Diablo 50: Randall™ Diavlo RD50 • Raven Type D: Revv™ D20™ • Raven Type G: Revv™ G20™ • Saratov M50: Sovtek™ Mig 50™ • Solstice Solo 100: Soldano® SLO100® • Steiner ToneCake 50: Steavens™ Poundcake™ • Vicarius Black 30: Victory™ V30 The Countess™ MKI • Vicarius Grey 50: Victory™ The Kraken™ • Vulture A30 Combo: Vox® AC30® Top Boost Plus a ton of pedal effects: • AutoWah • Basic Compressor • Basic Volume Pedal • Boss® HM2 : Bold Dist H2 • Boss® MT2 : Bold Dist M2 • Boss® OD1 : Bold Drive O1 • Boss® SD1 : Bold Drive S1 • Darkglass Electronics® B3K™ V1 : Obsidius Modern 3001 • Darkglass Electronics® Vintage Microtubes™ Bass Pedal : Obsidius Vintage • Digitech® Bad Monkey: DeeGeeT Drive Monkey Business • Dunlop® Cry Baby GCB95 : Dune Wah Cry 95 • Earth Quaker Devices® Plumes : Ear Shatter Drive Pluvius • Envelope Filter • Fortin® 33 : Forbid 66 • Franken Fuzz • Fulltone® OCDv14 : Foo Drive DOC 14 • Horizon Devices® Precision Drive : Horde Drive Accuracy • Ibanez® TS9 : Ibis Drive T9 • Ignite Amps Tyrant Screamer, • JHS® TheAT : Jax Drive Andy • Klon™ Centaur™ : Kentaurus Drive • Marshall® Blues Breaker : Brit Drive Blue • Marshall® Drive Master : Brit Drive Red • Marshall® Shred Master : Brit Drive Gold • Maxon® OD808 : Max Drive M808 • MXR® Custom Badass Modified OD : Mizar Drive Kickass Mod • MXR® Distortion Plus : Mizar Dist Plus • MXR® M109 : GEQ6 • Proco® Rat : Prodigal Dist Raw v2 • Proco® TurboRat : Prodigal Dist Raw Turbo • Seymour Duncan® 805 : Sigma Delta Drive 505 • TC® Integrated Preamp : Tease Preamp • Tech 21® Bass Driver DI : Technyc Drive Direct Bass V1 • Trioctaver • Wampler® Abasi Pathos : Wampus Animal Distortion • Wampler® Euphoria : Wampus D-phoria • Wampler® Triple Wreck : Wampus Dist Triple Wick • Xotic® BB Preamp : Xordium Preamp 2B • Xotic® EP Booster™ : Xordium Epsilon Boost Effects • Analog Delay • Analog Tremolo • Chainsaw Eq • Digital Chorus • Digital Flanger • Digital Phaser • Digital Tremolo • Digital Delay • Digital Reverb • Droptaver • Giano Guitar Doubler • Multi Chorus • MXR® M108 : GEQ10 • Orbital Delay • Parametric Eq • Shapeshifter Verb • Spaceverb • Studio Compressor • Vintage Modulation It covers a lot of ground for anything that may need that flexibility 👍🏼 |
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Post by phantom on Nov 3, 2024 10:51:45 GMT -6
You can buy the 3 UAD Amps right now for 109 dollars. Right at this moment.
Or subscribe to Spark for 99 and have access to the 3 amps plus a bunch of plugins - even some FX for guitar like phaser, reverb, delay. They will also probably release the Dumble, 5150 and Dual Rectifier next year as well.
I mean, I'm really not the one to defend UA against alternatives, but another subscription with hundreds of amps and guitar FX that I'll probably never going to use is not what I'm looking for.
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Post by seawell on Nov 3, 2024 11:03:02 GMT -6
You can buy the 3 UAD Amps right now for 109 dollars. Right at this moment. Or subscribe to Spark for 99 and have access to the 3 amps plus a bunch of plugins - even some FX for guitar like phaser, reverb, delay. They will also probably release the Dumble, 5150 and Dual Rectifier next year as well. I mean, I'm really not the one to defend UA against alternatives, but another subscription with hundreds of amps and guitar FX that I'll probably never going to use is not what I'm looking for. Fair enough, just wanted to offer an alternative for anyone that may be interested. I think they sound better than anything I've used and I've tried a bunch over the years. Seems like finding UA alternatives is probably going to be a good idea but that's just my own 2 cents. |
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