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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 30, 2024 7:57:40 GMT -6
I use Beyerdynamic DT-770 pros…and they’re fine I have always thought. But does anyone have experience going from something like my DT-770s and Hear back System to something higher end?
I was singing yesterday…I obviously have a lot of experience singing with headphones, but I’ve never really considered just why I sing better at some places than others. I under that’s not the only variable - but we’re all trying to improve all the time.
I guess the quality of da matters here as much listening over speakers, wouldn’t you think? I feel like I struggle to hear myself the same as no-headphones when I’m singing softly. Like being able to really hear dynamics the same as no headphones…if that makes any sense. Maybe these are all just volume adjusting things - which is what I do now…vocal volume up during quiet passages, down in choruses, etc…
But the whole point of the thread is this: will upgrading my hear back system and headphones make tracking more transparent? Or do all headphones suffer from the same issues?
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 30, 2024 8:05:55 GMT -6
I’m not much of a singer, I do have DT770’s, I recently picked up the DT1770 pros closed back as well as the DT1990 pros, they are both pretty damn nice and I haven’t used the 770s since,
hope that helps
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 30, 2024 8:07:11 GMT -6
I’m not much of a singer, I do have DT770’s, I recently picked up the DT1770 pros closed back as well as the DT1990 pros, they are both pretty damn nice and I haven’t used the 770s since, hope that helps I’m just trying to find something that helps me sing better. Not sure if it’s the headphones or not. And it’s not an issue per se - I’m just looking for improvement. |
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Post by chessparov on Aug 30, 2024 8:26:29 GMT -6
The elephant in the room, is that typically singers perform best without headphones to begin with. (Just ask Bob Olhsson  ) FWIW I ended up not Monitoring/"hearing" any effects while Tracking. Are you ever doing the "one on"/one off headphone thing? Chris P.S. I would think better Fidelity/Neutral-ish cans would only help. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 30, 2024 8:29:37 GMT -6
I’m not much of a singer, I do have DT770’s, I recently picked up the DT1770 pros closed back as well as the DT1990 pros, they are both pretty damn nice and I haven’t used the 770s since, hope that helps I’m just trying to find something that helps me sing better. Not sure if it’s the headphones or not. And it’s not an issue per se - I’m just looking for improvement. There is something very strange about volume, bandwidth curve, driver to ear distance and pitch. I’ve never quite got a handle on it. I pitch better on darker flatter headphones. (770’s are way too bright for me) I pitch very well on DT100’s (which some people consider as a speaker in a coconut shell!) I better fairly well on DT250’s. I pitch best on my IEM’s or no headphones - I think IEM’s ironically mimic no headphones as the driver is so close to you ear drum. The best phones for you will be unique to you. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 30, 2024 8:32:12 GMT -6
maybe the mono mix set up with one monitor 180* out of phase trick should be tried? In all my days I've never done this myself, i have seen it done and heard people rave about it 🤷🏻♂️
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Post by chessparov on Aug 30, 2024 8:33:54 GMT -6
It was just a phase.  John could you do Scratch Tracks with a Speaker? Then carry that "muscle memory" more automatically... When wearing headphone(s)? Chris |
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Post by peterr on Aug 30, 2024 9:53:04 GMT -6
I’m just trying to find something that helps me sing better. Not sure if it’s the headphones or not. And it’s not an issue per se - I’m just looking for improvement. There is something very strange about volume, bandwidth curve, driver to ear distance and pitch. I’ve never quite got a handle on it. I pitch better on darker flatter headphones. (770’s are way too bright for me) I pitch very well on DT100’s (which some people consider as a speaker in a coconut shell!) I better fairly well on DT250’s. I pitch best on my IEM’s or no headphones - I think IEM’s ironically mimic no headphones as the driver is so close to you ear drum. The best phones for you will be unique to you. Which IEM's are you using? Something I've been wanting to try. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 30, 2024 10:01:57 GMT -6
The answer is yes, better headphones will improve your performance, the question is in what way do you need better headphones? Isolation? Lack of isolation? Clarity? Is there a particular range where you’re not happy with the Beyer’s? Do you simply need to put either some EQ or compression on the headphone mix?
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Post by skav on Aug 30, 2024 10:02:26 GMT -6
Beyerdynamics are comfy and look cool. Mixes would not translate right for me with them at the time though. What do you think of the Sony MDs John? For me they work the best out of all I've tried. Not flashy, but has good isolation, and the frequency response makes my mixes translate suprisingly well. (And I like singing with them  I avoided them for a long time. But now I understand why so many studios use them. |
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Post by robo on Aug 30, 2024 10:08:32 GMT -6
I’ve recorded a few singers that only really vibe with a specific set of headphones. One picky singer can only really use Shure 940’s, which is a pain because the headband is creaky and gets in the recording sometimes. Those are also pretty hyped in the upper mids, so maybe freq response is more important than how “good” they are? Maybe you just need to borrow some sets from friends and see what you vibe with.
The main overarching thing I’ve noticed is that there’s a sweet volume spot for pitch, and it is usually lower than the sweet spot for emotion. Of course those targets move with singing style and dynamics. It’s always a struggle!
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 30, 2024 10:39:13 GMT -6
Here’s my newest psych-out on a vocal I did yesterday. There are just so many variables, maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree. But I notice I sometimes probably push too much when singing - I think to compete with music…but I’m not really describing that well, because I obviously understand compression (enough to not be a potato) - that is kind of a simplistic description of what I’m trying to “fix.”
Maybe it’s just the drawback of wearing headphones…idk. But I don’t hear dynamics as well. Or maybe it’s because I’m pushing in the choruses for a volume jump, but my compressor is limiting that volume jump which makes me sing louder and the compressor compress more. Which in turn makes me wonder if I’m compressing too much on the way in. (Maybe I’m way over compressing)
Sorry to ramble, but I’m thinking this out in real time. Maybe I should be tracking with like my 1178 just taking peaks off and then use the sta in mixing. I usually (for some unknown and no-reason reason) I’ve always tracked with the sta and then used a faster comp on the back end. That way, I can more easily control the color and saturation that gets added. Or hell - why not use one of my UA plugs on the way in. Novel concept
You know - I’m lazy. When I’m tracking myself, I always just go phrase by phrase until I feel like the take was right. Then move on. I don’t comp just because…I know me and comping is boring as hell. I do with other people - just not me. If there’s something I hate, I just re-sing it. But then I judge equipment based on these “takes.” Maybe other people hear something weird and just move on to the next comp - like, “hey - sometimes you just get weird glitches and that’s why you need multiple takes.” I also know that 90% of people either don’t hear it or it doesn’t bother them…but this is what we do. If we’re not obsessing, then no one is.
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 30, 2024 10:49:15 GMT -6
There is something very strange about volume, bandwidth curve, driver to ear distance and pitch. I’ve never quite got a handle on it. I pitch better on darker flatter headphones. (770’s are way too bright for me) I pitch very well on DT100’s (which some people consider as a speaker in a coconut shell!) I better fairly well on DT250’s. I pitch best on my IEM’s or no headphones - I think IEM’s ironically mimic no headphones as the driver is so close to you ear drum. The best phones for you will be unique to you. Which IEM's are you using? Something I've been wanting to try. UK company ACS. I use their Evolve three driver Ambient series live. Sennheiser G4 wireless system. My singing live is now near on pitch perfect. I’m really glad I changed over to IEM’s - it’s really made a positive difference to my live performances - especially pitch! |
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Post by skav on Aug 30, 2024 10:50:09 GMT -6
Here’s my newest psych-out on a vocal I did yesterday. There are just so many variables, maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree. But I notice I sometimes probably push too much when singing - I think to compete with music…but I’m not really describing that well, because I obviously understand compression (enough to not be a potato) - that is kind of a simplistic description of what I’m trying to “fix.” Maybe it’s just the drawback of wearing headphones…idk. But I don’t hear dynamics as well. Or maybe it’s because I’m pushing in the choruses for a volume jump, but my compressor is limiting that volume jump which makes me sing louder and the compressor compress more. Which in turn makes me wonder if I’m compressing too much on the way in. (Maybe I’m way over compressing) Sorry to ramble, but I’m thinking this out in real time. Maybe I should be tracking with like my 1178 just taking peaks off and then use the sta in mixing. I usually (for some unknown and no-reason reason) I’ve always tracked with the sta and then used a faster comp on the back end. That way, I can more easily control the color and saturation that gets added. Or hell - why not use one of my UA plugs on the way in. Novel concept You know - I’m lazy. When I’m tracking myself, I always just go phrase by phrase until I feel like the take was right. Then move on. I don’t comp just because…I know me and comping is boring as hell. I do with other people - just not me. If there’s something I hate, I just re-sing it. But then I judge equipment based on these “takes.” Maybe other people hear something weird and just move on to the next comp - like, “hey - sometimes you just get weird glitches and that’s why you need multiple takes.” I also know that 90% of people either don’t hear it or it doesn’t bother them…but this is what we do. If we’re not obsessing, then no one is. How many decibels are you compressing on the STA-level? Maybe set it more conservatively? Sounds like you're onto something. Like you wrote, try something quick like a 1176 / 1178 to tame the peaks 1-3 db max to push it slightly forward. |
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Post by notneeson on Aug 30, 2024 10:53:44 GMT -6
I think you're a great singer, so it's funny to offer "advice."
But:
I think I sing better with my HD650s and RND headphone amp. Lower quality playback and closed back phones do mess with me. The bleed from the Senns is fine, most of the time.
I do hang one side off to hear myself in the room, obviously a well known trick.
Lately, I have gotten what I consider to be some of my best vocals yet (no one get too excited) running my Beesneez 67 in figure 8, monitors in the null, no phones. It really is more natural. Obviously I'm not even monitoring vocal foldback at that point.
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Post by lowlou on Aug 30, 2024 11:04:43 GMT -6
What bothered me singing in the DT770 was the sibilances, it emphasized them & strongly interfered with my singing. I think that (for me at least) a darker mic is preferable. Or maybe a de-esser in the cue buss, because otherwise I'm so used to the DT770 (and love them)...
Then I've read yesterday in SOS about Jay Kay from Jamiroquai (a damn fine singer if you ask me) in the 2000s singing without headphones. He didn't liked headphones, so they used two NS10 out of phase. I'd be curious to try the trick, one day.
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Post by lowlou on Aug 30, 2024 11:07:43 GMT -6
I think you're a great singer, so it's funny to offer "advice." But: I think I sing getter with my HD650s and RND headphone amp. Lower quality playback and closed back phones do mess with me. The bleed from the Senns is fine, most of the time. I do hang one side off to hear myself in the room, obviously a well known trick. Lately, I have gotten what I consider to be some of my best vocals yet (no one get too excited) running my Beesneez 67 in figure 8, monitors in the null, no phones. It really is more natural. Obviously I'm not even monitoring vocal foldback at that point. Dumb question, but is the "monitor in the null" really working 100% ? No bleed ? You just place the mic in between the monitors and inverse the phase of the left one and that's it ? |
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Post by bowie on Aug 30, 2024 11:10:17 GMT -6
I need to be able to hear myself in the room so I've always been a 1-ear-off singer. Having both ears covered causes me to compensate and brighten my vocal tone too much. I have the 770s, among others, and quality never really mattered to me for tracking. I just rely on hearing my voice in the room.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 30, 2024 11:20:59 GMT -6
RE: "Pushing" etc... This Thread partly inspired me to start a "Lesson Thread" currently nearby! Yes. I'm retraining my Voice, including more "Support"/Breath Management. Probably sang "best ever", last Wednesday... At my (wonderful!) evening Chess Club. We typically break out a couple of Acoustics and a bunch of us sing after around 9:30. That'll transfer into Studio Singing. Chris P.S. +1000 on John K's Tenor! |
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Post by svart on Aug 30, 2024 11:29:54 GMT -6
I wouldn't think the DT770 would be the limiting factor. I find that singers typically have better control if the cue has some reverb on it, or if we do guide tracks that have been tuned and let the singer just harmonize with them. The other trick is to hop around in the song doing the parts that they feel they are doing well, and wait to do the hard stuff later. With singers, it's a lot more mental than anything. They're their own worst critics, usually.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 30, 2024 11:37:58 GMT -6
Definitely "mental" here. Still IMHO... all these Processing techniques, might be unneeded. Versus more "Au Natural". Got to the point where I think Reverb hurts, more than helps Pitch during Tracking. And I'm a recovering Reverbaholic! Same for Compression. Chris |
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Post by teejay on Aug 30, 2024 11:42:15 GMT -6
I'm probably the anomaly here, but I've found I record my singing best with headphones on both ears and using non-flat phones. When tracking I use my ATH M50s. I also have HD650s, ATH M40fs, and custom Future Sonics IEMs, but the kind of "pre-eq'd" signature of the M50s allow me to clearly hear and vary dynamics and intimacy. I like to keep the volume pretty high as well, and plug them directly into the headphone jack on my RME Multiface II. I do track/capture with my V-Comp+ and/or my AS Opto, and also add in some outboard verb just for me...although the verb is only in my phones and not recorded. As John mentioned, if I crank up the V-Comp+ or the Opto too much it's harder to hear the detail and I also end up oversinging to get above the track.
It also seems to be the case that what is captured in the DAW is slightly different sonically than what I hear directly during tracking.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 30, 2024 11:48:48 GMT -6
Here’s my newest psych-out on a vocal I did yesterday. There are just so many variables, maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree. But I notice I sometimes probably push too much when singing - I think to compete with music…but I’m not really describing that well, because I obviously understand compression (enough to not be a potato) - that is kind of a simplistic description of what I’m trying to “fix.” Maybe it’s just the drawback of wearing headphones…idk. But I don’t hear dynamics as well. Or maybe it’s because I’m pushing in the choruses for a volume jump, but my compressor is limiting that volume jump which makes me sing louder and the compressor compress more. Which in turn makes me wonder if I’m compressing too much on the way in. (Maybe I’m way over compressing) Sorry to ramble, but I’m thinking this out in real time. Maybe I should be tracking with like my 1178 just taking peaks off and then use the sta in mixing. I usually (for some unknown and no-reason reason) I’ve always tracked with the sta and then used a faster comp on the back end. That way, I can more easily control the color and saturation that gets added. Or hell - why not use one of my UA plugs on the way in. Novel concept You know - I’m lazy. When I’m tracking myself, I always just go phrase by phrase until I feel like the take was right. Then move on. I don’t comp just because…I know me and comping is boring as hell. I do with other people - just not me. If there’s something I hate, I just re-sing it. But then I judge equipment based on these “takes.” Maybe other people hear something weird and just move on to the next comp - like, “hey - sometimes you just get weird glitches and that’s why you need multiple takes.” I also know that 90% of people either don’t hear it or it doesn’t bother them…but this is what we do. If we’re not obsessing, then no one is. OK a couple of thoughts, first try listening to your hearback mix through the speakers, their might be some compression/ limiting that you can’t over ride. Now here is a dirty little secret that most studio guys never seam to acknowledge but every large scale live guy completely understands the single chain that works for the track & what works for a monitor mix to get the best performance are not the same thing, so split the signal and dial in each separately. Of course you should try tracking without headphones as well. |
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Post by notneeson on Aug 30, 2024 11:51:09 GMT -6
I think you're a great singer, so it's funny to offer "advice." But: I think I sing getter with my HD650s and RND headphone amp. Lower quality playback and closed back phones do mess with me. The bleed from the Senns is fine, most of the time. I do hang one side off to hear myself in the room, obviously a well known trick. Lately, I have gotten what I consider to be some of my best vocals yet (no one get too excited) running my Beesneez 67 in figure 8, monitors in the null, no phones. It really is more natural. Obviously I'm not even monitoring vocal foldback at that point. Dumb question, but is the "monitor in the null" really working 100% ? No bleed ? You just place the mic in between the monitors and inverse the phase of the left one and that's it ? It's bleeding for sure. But it's way down there compared to that actual signal. Could be an issue, but so far so good. And you know, performance beats all. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 30, 2024 14:14:49 GMT -6
Hey popmann - you've talked about the difference in anaolog and digital connections for phones, right? What's your take on all of this. |
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