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Post by Koln on Aug 7, 2014 6:55:53 GMT -6
While doing research on LDC for E GTR amps i stumble on a thread on the other site from Micheal Joly talking about this mic.
Is it really that good?
I need a few LDC to "park" on guitar amps here. What do you guys suggest?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 7, 2014 7:17:21 GMT -6
While I find Jolys work an improvement over any of the stock mics. He has never wowed me. I have a pair of Nady branded Generic Chi-Cond that I toyed with sending him I decided I would rather at some Point DIY u87 them. At the end of the day for Work horse Condensers I would Rather spend The Cash on some used 414s, 4040s 4050s or even for very little I have heard great results from AKG C3000s!
I know of a great deal on a pair of used 4050s that I have toyed with grabbing PM if your interested.
Also there are a Ton of interesting FET LDCs in the. 4-600$ range everybody should have a couple of secret weapons !
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 7, 2014 7:38:55 GMT -6
Shure KSM32 is a solid mic, inexpensive used, and pretty popular for guitar cabs.
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Post by Koln on Aug 7, 2014 19:21:41 GMT -6
Eric : AT mics are some of my favorites on close E GTR amps. I might buy some more.
Jcoutu : is the KSM32 into the bright or flat/unhyped category? Never tried it really.
I like buying new so used mics are not an option for such "cheap" mics. Also i need 4 of them so 1K$ and above mics are out the question.
Thanks again.
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Post by gouge on Aug 7, 2014 19:36:04 GMT -6
if I were going to get one mic to park on guitar cab it would be the ksm137.
or an rca ribbon
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ericn
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MXL 2003a
Aug 7, 2014 19:55:24 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Aug 7, 2014 19:55:24 GMT -6
Eric : AT mics are some of my favorites on close E GTR amps. I might buy some more. Jcoutu : is the KSM32 into the bright or flat/unhyped category? Never tried it really. I like buying new so used mics are not an option for such "cheap" mics. Also i need 4 of them so 1K$ and above mics are out the question. Thanks again. Dude join the world of cheap used mics! All except one of 6 421s are used ( one was free because I buy any decent cheap mic that walks into that pawn shop and it was to much work to sell it without the $10 karaoke machine) These are my sub $50ea used mics 2 steadman n90 3 Akg D1200 1Akg D1000 4 Akg D190 2 Ev Re16 4 shure Sm57 1 Senn e609 Try some cheap used its soooooo much fun! You make freinds and they start saving stuff for you!
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Post by svart on Aug 8, 2014 6:53:56 GMT -6
After much debate and testing, I've parked a UM70S and R121 in front of my cabinet. Those cover everything I need from a guitar and bass.
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ericn
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MXL 2003a
Aug 8, 2014 7:00:59 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Aug 8, 2014 7:00:59 GMT -6
After much debate and testing, I've parked a UM70S and R121 in front of my cabinet. Those cover everything I need from a guitar and bass. Hard to fault either of those on just about anything ! The Gefell M7 FET mics are something special!
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Post by Koln on Aug 8, 2014 7:09:14 GMT -6
Yeah.....i can clearly see myself go buy 4x UM70S at 1800.00$/ea. and park them on cabinets.
Maybe i should be an electrical engineer. A-Ha!!!
I already have 57s and ribbons on them. All i need are decent LCDs than from the console pick whatever mic/amp i like that day.
Looks like i'll give an 2003a a try and if i don't like it i'll go AT and be done with it. I'm just curious about that lil' 2003a.
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Post by svart on Aug 8, 2014 7:17:05 GMT -6
You know what I tried that sounded pretty decent? A Blue Bluebird. Sounded pretty OK on the cabinet. I kinda regret selling it now. It's also got a nice side terminated capsule too.
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Post by svart on Aug 8, 2014 7:58:43 GMT -6
Yeah.....i can clearly see myself go buy 4x UM70S at 1800.00$/ea. and park them on cabinets. Maybe i should be an electrical engineer. A-Ha!!! I already have 57s and ribbons on them. All i need are decent LCDs than from the console pick whatever mic/amp i like that day. Looks like i'll give an 2003a a try and if i don't like it i'll go AT and be done with it. I'm just curious about that lil' 2003a. Yeah, it was an investment, as are all my mics these days. I can always use it on other things like voices and drum room mic, etc. I sold most of my other mics except for about 10 really good mics, most of which have specific uses which they are best suited for. If I had it to do all over again, I would have just saved more money and bought good mics to begin with and saved so much time and anxiety instead of relentlessly trying to make cheap mics work through mods and determination. I'll give you the answer to the question: They never live up to your expectation no matter how much effort you put it. As the cliche' goes, you can buy a 125K Ferrari, or you can put 125K of work into an Accord and it'll still never be a Ferrari. That's why the big boys always use the same handful of good mics for most things, with the odd exception for the SM57 here and there. Never once have I seen an Audio Technica mic in a for-profit studio. Decent mics, decent tone, but they are no Neumann or Gefell. Honestly, the R121 is the master of all things related to guitars. Set it around 8" back from the center of the cone, 45deg angle, top of the mic even with the top of the dust cap, and BOOM. Guitar sound without any fuss. If someone tells you they can't make the R121 work on guitars (And I've read sob stories on GS about it) then they are doing something seriously wrong, probably with placement or the amp settings. I know it's expensive, but what it has saved me in time has more than paid for itself. I used to spend an hour plus moving SM57's around the speakers while tweaking amps while the guitarist stands there complaining about the tone. Now, I just plop the R121 down move it to the position mentioned above and get to recording. Nobody complains anymore. And for Mr. Joly, his mods were created long ago by others on other DIY sites for personal use only and has turned other people's work into his own little profitable industry. He gets no respect from me. He doesn't really sell you anything you can't get from simply putting that extra money into another, better, mic. What he does sell is a feeling of accomplishment that people get from "cheating" the system by making something cheap "outperform" something more expensive for roughly the same money.
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Post by kidvybes on Aug 8, 2014 8:39:34 GMT -6
...years ago, when the 2003A was just released, we did a "Low-End LDC Shootout" on GS, and frankly, it did not do so great up against an MXL V67 (stock and modded), an Oktava MK319, a KEL HM-2d and whatever else we included at the time (I'll see if I can retrieve a link to the post)... ...the overall impression was, while it was an improvement on the earlier 2003 in terms of taming the top-end sizzle, it remains rather thin and lifeless... ...you might want to look at Brent Casey's Studio Project CS-1...very neutral/natural (honest!) sounding LDC with exceptional fine-tuning options for instrument micing (4 low-pass, 4 high-pass, and 4 pad settings)...Brent originally designed these mics to compete with the "414-type" utility mics, and their original price-points were very high ($850) due to the fact that no OEM Chinese bodies, capsules or circuits were used...the CS-series mics were tooled from the ground up...in recent years the price has dropped to 1/3 the original MSRP, as the initial investment has been recouped...I believe these are probably the best low-cost Asian sourced mics in the marketplace, easily on par with comparably priced AT and Shure options, yet offering greater versatility in studio applications... ...can be had new for a bit over $200 here: www.ebay.com/itm/Studio-Projects-CS1-Cardioid-Condenser-Microphone-/231062188371recordinghacks.com/microphones/Studio-Projects/CS1...this is respected mic-designer (and surfer/skater/mad professor) Brent Casey's (coincidently former MXL's designer) own description:
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Post by svart on Aug 8, 2014 8:53:55 GMT -6
...years ago, when the 2003A was just released, we did a "Low-End LDC Shootout" on GS, and frankly, it did not do so great up against an MXL V67 (stock and modded), an Oktava MK319, a KEL HM-2d and whatever else we included at the time (I'll see if I can retrieve a link to the post)... ...the overall impression was, while it was an improvement on the earlier 2003 in terms of taming the top-end sizzle, it remains rather thin and lifeless... ...you might want to look at Brent Casey's Studio Project CS-1...very neutral/natural (honest!) sounding LDC with exceptional fine-tuning options for instrument micing (4 low-pass, 4 high-pass, and 4 pad settings)...Brent originally designed these mics to compete with the "414-type" utility mics, and their original price-points were very high ($850) due to the fact that no OEM Chinese bodies, capsules or circuits were used...the CS-series mics were tooled from the ground up...in recent years the price has dropped to 1/3 the original MSRP, as the initial investment has been recouped...I believe these are probably the best low-cost Asian sourced mics in the marketplace, easily on par with comparably priced AT and Shure options... ...can be had new for a bit over $200 here: www.ebay.com/itm/Studio-Projects-CS1-Cardioid-Condenser-Microphone-/231062188371recordinghacks.com/microphones/Studio-Projects/CS1I just remember the SP C1.. the "just like a U87 for only 200$!!!!" mic. Nope. Nothing like a U87 and barely worth the effort to try it out.
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Post by kidvybes on Aug 8, 2014 9:08:18 GMT -6
I just remember the SP C1.. the "just like a U87 for only 200$!!!!" mic. Nope. Nothing like a U87 and barely worth the effort to try it out. ...and that would be fine if the CS-1 had anything in common with the C1, which it does not (entirely different design and capsule)...since you have no experience using the CS-series mics, your comment is less than relevant, as I have used both the C1 and CS-series mics, and these newer mics are vastly superior and display none of the overly hyped, top-end sizzle that characterized the C1... ...the only knock on these CS-series mics (and you're free to read the various reviews) is that they are stunningly accurate, and possibly too honest in their capture capabilities for certain sources...they are not designed to flatter, but rather to be true to the source...actually, if you were handed one of these mics to use and not told of their origin, you might very well guess Euro-sourced, they are that well-tooled and voiced...probably the best low-cost mic you never heard...but since you've already made your mind up, it really doesn't matter, does it?... ...the OP clearly states he needs 4 inexpensive LDC mics and you recommend "UM70S and R121"...once again, less than relevant...
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Post by svart on Aug 8, 2014 9:17:24 GMT -6
...and that would be fine if the CS-1 had anything in common with the C1, which it does not (entirely different design and capsule)...since you have no experience using the CS-series mics, your comment is less than relevant, as I have used both the C1 and CS-series mics, and these newer mics are vastly superior and display none of the overly hyped, top-end sizzle that characterized the C1... ...the only knock on these CS-series mics (and you're free to read the various reviews) is that they are stunningly accurate, and possibly too honest in their capture capabilities for certain sources...they are not designed to flatter, but rather be true to the source...actually, if you were handed one of these mics to use and not told of their origin, you might very well guess Euro-sourced, they are that well-tooled and voiced...probably the best low-cost mic you never heard...but since you've already made your mind up, it really doesn't matter, does it?... Of course it's relevant. I'm saying that the professional reviews on the SP C1 were exactly the same as what you say above.. "realism, superior, accurate, honest" and all that. The reviews of those on forums was almost as eager to please, but it turned out that it was a lot of "me too" going on until the next "big thing" came out, then all of a sudden C1's flooded the used market.. In fact, I bought the first C1 in my state. I had it special ordered the day of the release based on the pre-reviews of the time. So forgive me for not taking the word of the internet marketing machine anymore, but I've been bitten a few too many times to take any of these types of "miracle product" things seriously, and yes that includes purchasing a few SP products in my naive hopes that they lived up to the hype. Maybe their new stuff is great as you say, and you're right, I don't know, but I'm not going back anytime soon unless I find a need that something like this might fill, then I might give it a try. and an honest question.. you seem very eager to defend them.. do you work for Studio Projects or an affiliate?
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Post by kidvybes on Aug 8, 2014 9:24:10 GMT -6
Of course it's relevant. I'm saying that the professional reviews on the SP C1 were exactly the same as what you say above.. "realism, superior, accurate, honest" and all that. The reviews of those on forums was almost as eager to please, but it turned out that it was a lot of "me too" going on until the next "big thing" came out. So forgive me for not taking the word of the internet marketing machine anymore, but I've been bitten a few too many times to take any of these types of "miracle product" things seriously, and yes that includes purchasing a few SP products in my naive hopes that they lived up to the hype. Maybe their new stuff is great as you say, and you're right, I don't know, but I'm not going back anytime soon unless I find a need that something like this might fill, then I might give it a try. and an honest question.. you seem very eager to defend them.. do you work for Studio Projects or an affiliate? ...if I judged Kia and Hyundai cars by their initial offerings, I'd be making the same kind of flash judgement you're applying...I'm recommending a microphone based on my personal experience using it, not based upon some "internet marketing machine"...I recommend what I've used and owned, not passing along web hype as fact... ...I'll be sure to break the bad news to Brent Casey about your decision when I see him in the office...
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Post by svart on Aug 8, 2014 9:26:09 GMT -6
...the OP clearly states he needs 4 inexpensive LDC mics and you recommend "UM70S and R121"...once again, less than relevant... Actually, this is what he said in his original post, that I replied to.. "I need a few LDC to "park" on guitar amps here. What do you guys suggest?" While in your attempt to "catch" me being a dick, you overlooked the facts. Nothing in the original post said anything about price or quantity.
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Post by kidvybes on Aug 8, 2014 9:35:37 GMT -6
Actually, this is what he said in his original post, that I replied to.. "I need a few LDC to "park" on guitar amps here. What do you guys suggest?" While in your attempt to "catch" me being a dick, you overlooked the facts. Nothing in the original post said anything about price or quantity. ...on a thread headed with the name of a Chinese LDC mic that retails for $139... ...that's why the OP responded, "Yeah.....i can clearly see myself go buy 4x UM70S at 1800.00$/ea. and park them on cabinets." ...BTW, the CS-1's variable pad settings make it an ideal choice for parking on a guitar amp... ...you are being a dick...nuff said...
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Post by svart on Aug 8, 2014 9:39:57 GMT -6
Of course it's relevant. I'm saying that the professional reviews on the SP C1 were exactly the same as what you say above.. "realism, superior, accurate, honest" and all that. The reviews of those on forums was almost as eager to please, but it turned out that it was a lot of "me too" going on until the next "big thing" came out. So forgive me for not taking the word of the internet marketing machine anymore, but I've been bitten a few too many times to take any of these types of "miracle product" things seriously, and yes that includes purchasing a few SP products in my naive hopes that they lived up to the hype. Maybe their new stuff is great as you say, and you're right, I don't know, but I'm not going back anytime soon unless I find a need that something like this might fill, then I might give it a try. and an honest question.. you seem very eager to defend them.. do you work for Studio Projects or an affiliate? ...if I judged Kia and Hyundai cars by their initial offerings, I'd be making the same kind of flash judgement you're applying...I'm recommending a microphone based on my personal experience using it, not based upon some "internet marketing machine"...I recommend what I've used and owned, not passing along web hype as fact... ...I'll be sure to break the bad news to Brent Casey about your decision when I see him in the office... That's cool. I don't want to buy either Kia or Hyundai. True, their offerings are getting better, but still not my cup of tea, and I would still test drive one before buying one. With internet hype and internet sales, it's pretty impossible to test drive mics and things without buying them. Once you do that, used resale for something like SP mics is probably 50% of the retail price, thus buying to "test" is a losing proposition. Kinda apples and oranges analogy you are trying to use there. And I could tell by how hard you attacked me for my opinion that some kind of protection instinct must have been kicking in, thus my belief you were somehow related to SP. And if Mr. Casey is upset that a single person on the internet has had problems with quality of his past offerings then he needs thicker skin, as do you. But, you defend so vigorously, I have to think it might be a recurring theme or something.. If you want me to be a believer, then make me believe, but I'm still not buying the buzzwords, marketing hype and heavily compressed youtube videos. So send me a loaner and I'll use it on my next studio session next to some of my other mics, namely Gefell M930 and Um70S, C12, etc. If it impresses me as much as you say it will, I'll apologize and buy one.
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Post by kidvybes on Aug 8, 2014 9:55:02 GMT -6
And I could tell by how hard you attacked me for my opinion that some kind of protection instinct must have been kicking in, thus my belief you were somehow related to SP. And if Mr. Casey is upset that a single person on the internet has had problems with quality of his past offerings then he needs thicker skin, as do you. But, you defend so vigorously, I have to think it might be a recurring theme or something.. ...bro, you're so deep into forwarding your own point of view that you don't even recognize sarcasm slung right under your nose...I don't work for, nor am I in anyway affiliated with Studio Projects other than owning/using the mic I recommended...seriously! ...so there's two of us debating a product that only one of us has any experience with...I think we've both wasted enough thread real estate debating your "quick to dismiss" attitude...I'm done...moving on...
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Post by svart on Aug 8, 2014 10:02:11 GMT -6
And I could tell by how hard you attacked me for my opinion that some kind of protection instinct must have been kicking in, thus my belief you were somehow related to SP. And if Mr. Casey is upset that a single person on the internet has had problems with quality of his past offerings then he needs thicker skin, as do you. But, you defend so vigorously, I have to think it might be a recurring theme or something.. ...bro, you're so deep into forwarding your own point of view that you don't even recognize sarcasm slung rightr under your nose...I don't work for, nor am I in anyway affiliated with Studio Projects other than owning/using the mic I recommended...seriously! ...so there's two of us debating a product that only one of us has any experience with...I think we've both wasted enough thread real estate debating your "quick to dismiss" attitude...I'm done...moving on... Says the guy bashing me because I don't share his point of view. Sheesh. Pots and kettles. If OP wants to try SP products, that's fine. I just wanted to say that I wish I had just saved my money and gotten something better earlier on and I wouldn't have wasted so much in "upgrading" over the years and early SP products screwed me out of money I could have used for better things. Maybe it's better now, but my point is still valid. Caveat emptor. And no, sarcasm doesn't translate well through reading text on a forum.
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ericn
Temp
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Posts: 16,009
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MXL 2003a
Aug 8, 2014 11:37:11 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Aug 8, 2014 11:37:11 GMT -6
Guys this is starting to sound like that Purple Site!
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Post by Koln on Aug 8, 2014 11:51:04 GMT -6
Well that was fun wasn't it!?!?!?!?! Maybe i don't want to become an electrical engineer after all Looks like i'll do my own test and make a decision after that. Thanks for the help, thatks for the laughters.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 8, 2014 12:04:40 GMT -6
And I could tell by how hard you attacked me for my opinion that some kind of protection instinct must have been kicking in, thus my belief you were somehow related to SP. And if Mr. Casey is upset that a single person on the internet has had problems with quality of his past offerings then he needs thicker skin, as do you. But, you defend so vigorously, I have to think it might be a recurring theme or something.. ...so there's two of us debating a product that only one of us has any experience with...I think we've both wasted enough thread real estate debating your "quick to dismiss" attitude...I'm done...moving on......meanwhile, back in Gotham Cable City, we check in on Audio Batman.... embarrassing smh
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Post by svart on Aug 8, 2014 12:10:13 GMT -6
yeah, sorry about that Koln. I just wanted you to know some real world experience with the whole "cheap mic" thing.
And I disagree that it's like the purple site. The purple site would have had a million other "me too" posts (perhaps even on both sides of the discussion..) and I probably would have been banned for speaking truthfully, but negatively, about my past experience with a sponsor's product!
I still stand by my suggestion that maybe a Blue Bluebird would work for you. it's cheap when purchased used and sounded remarkably good on guitar, to me. Maybe the SP CS-1 is good too, I dunno. I suppose if you can find one to borrow, give it a try too.
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