|
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 11, 2024 9:24:23 GMT -6
ding ding ding ding There are six different directions in which a subwoofer can fire and each position can also be polarity-reversed - that's twelve options for one subwoofer location. Since the point of a subwoofer is to activate your room modes and fill in those nulls, it's absolutely worth testing these to see which direction accomplishes that the best. My current small room has the sub centered against the front wall and firing directly at it, but my former, larger room had it in the corner for best results. And, like ericn reminds us, I got even better results with a second sub on the right wall about 2/3 of the length of the wall behind me, but every room will be different. mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/www.soundonsound.com/techniques/elephant-control-roomThat second article is awesome. Thanks for the link. “ Yes, subwoofers. Properly positioned — and two are always better than one for phase–correcting axial modes — they will begin to fill in your Grand Canyon of missing bass information. This is the only way the canyon can be filled, and no room is too small for this to work.” This is why this shit is so confusing…this guy is saying something completely different.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,946
|
Post by ericn on Aug 11, 2024 9:45:22 GMT -6
That second article is awesome. Thanks for the link. “ Yes, subwoofers. Properly positioned — and two are always better than one for phase–correcting axial modes — they will begin to fill in your Grand Canyon of missing bass information. This is the only way the canyon can be filled, and no room is too small for this to work.” This is why this shit is so confusing…this guy is saying something completely different. First and this isn’t from just me but a couple of well respected speaker designers as well , there are a lot of guys who deal 90% in the theoretical 10% in the real application, & there are guys who are the opposite. When dealing with the intergration of subs it’s not just a single variable there are a ton, so those who have developed there skills by moving shit around trying things out usually end up in the stereo sub camp. Second, the whole concept of non directional bass is a bit of a twisting of words. A speaker radiates in an Omni pattern when the wavelength is greater than the length of the baffle in that plane. Simple speak if the sub is producing a 12.5in wave and the width of the cabinet is 12in left to right it’s Omni. That wave just wraps around it. Every one I have ever asked this one basic question of has stumbled for an intelligent answer, if bass is non directional, at what frequency does it become directional? Seams kind of basic and simple right ? We know 10K is directional as hell but nobody can state at what point we see a change. The mono sub people also don’t take into account the fact that a sub is operating at lower levels in most cases 3-4 octaves above the crossover point, Mono subs are really great at mucking up images in the lower mids upper bass. Part of the problem is you can’t approach it as a speaker guy, or a room guy or a crossover guy, you have to be all 3!
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 11, 2024 10:18:13 GMT -6
The idea of bass being non-directional is utter B.S. The fact that it isn't was proven during the early 1930s at Bell Labs!
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,946
|
Post by ericn on Aug 11, 2024 10:30:34 GMT -6
The idea of bass being non-directional is utter B.S. The fact that it isn't was proven during the early 1930s at Bell Labs! Bob, I truely believe it’s a complete misunderstanding of “ Omnidirectional” & guys who have a grasp of basic physics but no understanding that a musical note has a complex harmonic structure, it’s not just a test tone.
|
|
|
Post by dok on Aug 11, 2024 12:46:46 GMT -6
Now my question is how in the world do I add a second sub to my setup? This is the tough part if your system doesn't have two subwoofer outs. I have an el-cheapo Presonus T10 as my main subwoofer that has a subwoofer out, specifically for that feature. It's one of the reasons (other than $$, obviously) I haven't upgraded to a Neumann system or otherwise, because their room correction requires their own subs and even then not really dual subs. BUT, don't get too far ahead of yourself, you may find after some trial and error that the improvements with one sub, properly positioned, are enough. Have you modeled your room with the REQ Wizard room sim to find a good starting point for the optimal placement?
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 11, 2024 13:31:02 GMT -6
I'm not a fan of subs.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,946
|
Post by ericn on Aug 11, 2024 14:27:34 GMT -6
Well yeah you have those Duntech / Dunleveys😁 I was going to post that in many ways subs are a very poor band aide for a problem we have made for ourselves. Think about it, it’s not like for most people we say hey why don’t you just pick a random tweeter. It’s unfortunate that most manufacturers don’t design near fields / subs as a system. They market them as such , but you you would be surprised how many “ matching subs” are designed by different teams than the monitors. An intergrated system be it in one or 2 cabinets would be great.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 11, 2024 14:57:22 GMT -6
You can correct smaller full range monitors with eq.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 11, 2024 22:39:33 GMT -6
I don’t neeed a sub. I just like them because imo, the playback always seems to sound better.
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Aug 12, 2024 1:16:14 GMT -6
I don’t neeed a sub. I just like them because imo, the playback always seems to sound better. I have never used a sub.. except for stage PA's probably don't know what I am missing... that might be a good thing cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Aug 12, 2024 3:48:57 GMT -6
+1 Every time I use a sub, demo a sub, buy (and then sell) a sub .... I end up going back to my basic set up. I prefer my ATC 25's without a sub. I have a couple of 2.1 systems I use for writing and they're fun and vibey (perfect for that environment) but I way prefer tracking, editing and mixing without a sub.
|
|
|
Post by christophert on Aug 12, 2024 4:56:53 GMT -6
+1 Every time I use a sub, demo a sub, buy (and then sell) a sub .... I end up going back to my basic set up. I prefer my ATC 25's without a sub. I have a couple of 2.1 systems I use for writing and they're fun and vibey (perfect for that environment) but I way prefer tracking, editing and mixing without a sub. Me too. My subs are in storage (hidden) unless requested by an external producer / engineer.
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Aug 12, 2024 6:33:39 GMT -6
I've never used room correction before, but I have been interested in trying it. So this is just me thinking out loud, but I'm curious if there is a point where room correction can actually push your monitors beyond their intended range? For example, let's say you have some deep nulls in your room in the under 200 hz range. Well the room correction is going to boost volume at those null frequencies to compensate, possibly by quite a few dB. So what if you're already used to monitoring at a loudness level just below where distortion starts to get introduced in your monitors, and then you start using room correction? I could see where those aforementioned boosts at those nulls could then push your monitors over the edge into distortion territory on the low end. Yeah, you can turn the monitors down, but what if you don't notice the added distortion? It might just be subtle enough to not notice or, alternatively, you might notice the distortion, but just say to yourself that the distortion was always there in the actual mix, and that you just weren't hearing it because of the nulls. I've wondered about this for a while. As monitors don't provide any sort of feedback to the room correction, any monitor distortion created as a result doesn't get accounted for. And, since the room correction has now created more than one variable changing at a time, the end user may not realize that their monitors are distorting, and simply chalk it up to the room correction software revealing additional distortion in their mix that was always there (but actually isn't). As distortion is commonly used all of the time as a way to make bass more intelligible for bass light systems like phones and laptops, you could end up thinking you've made the low end sufficiently intelligible in your mix, when it turns out that the room correction was just distorting your monitors. Maybe I’m not understanding, but you lower your output on the Trinnov. Mine is at -8. Same thing in Sonarworks. My biggest boost is about 11db Does the Trinniv lower across all frequencies automatically? If I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that it's basically lowering the volume at all frequencies other than where there are nulls? I suppose that could make sense, as boosting at a null is more or less the same as cutting everywhere but the nulls, in very general terms.
|
|
|
Post by dok on Aug 12, 2024 9:03:47 GMT -6
That second article is awesome. Thanks for the link. “ Yes, subwoofers. Properly positioned — and two are always better than one for phase–correcting axial modes — they will begin to fill in your Grand Canyon of missing bass information. This is the only way the canyon can be filled, and no room is too small for this to work.” This is why this shit is so confusing…this guy is saying something completely different. He's still saying that you have to experiment with different subwoofer locations and measure, but before that basically goes right to "you don't need to buy 4 subwoofers and put them in the corners" as the only other alternative. He even says, and I'm paraphrasing, "it may measure better, but will cost $10k", which is an obvious exaggeration. I agree with the notion that a subwoofer improperly applied is worse than no subwoofer. And I'm willing to bet that most subs are improperly applied.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 12, 2024 9:26:11 GMT -6
I don’t neeed a sub. I just like them because imo, the playback always seems to sound better. I have never used a sub.. except for stage PA's probably don't know what I am missing... that might be a good thing cheers Wiz To me, it’s the difference in hearing the bottom end or also feeling the bottom end.
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 12, 2024 11:06:26 GMT -6
How does one actually set up stereo subs? What's the signal path/wiring?
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 12, 2024 11:23:15 GMT -6
I had no idea either... dok and ericn have had some great ideas - you guys wanna share?
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 12, 2024 12:03:19 GMT -6
I had no idea either... dok and ericn have had some great ideas - you guys wanna share? Thanks, I'm all ears! Also, another question. That SOS article really sold me, but there's no way I can buy a pair of of $1700 subs or whatever. If I'm adding subs just to reinforce low end gaps (as opposed to making it sound PHAT!!!!), can I do that in the $300 - $500 per sub price point or am I risking causing more problems than I'm solving? I'm guessing configurability is pretty key here.
|
|
|
Post by dok on Aug 12, 2024 12:47:16 GMT -6
Alright, happy to share the method I use - I only ask that it's received in the spirit in which it was intended, which is to cheerfully outline a process to determine speaker, subwoofer, and listening position placement that is measurable and reproduce-able. I don't make any claims that it's better than any other system, only the fact that it *is* a system, compared to much of the advice you'll find online which is little better than guessing, but I've learned that especially the theory of subwoofer application used here really tends to get some people riled up. And I'm happy to answer any questions I've learned, but I really don't want to get deep into the weeds about *whether* it works - some of it is rather counterintuitive, but it always works for me and maybe it will work for you! Essentially this is a dumbed down, DIY version of Carl Tatz's Phantom Focus system - I am not affiliated with him whatsoever, but I am extremely grateful that he has posted the basics of his methodology for free on his website here: www.phantomfocus.com/Default.asp. If you read my instructions below and you want to take things to the next, actual professional level, you should 100% get in touch with him and I have no doubt it would be worth every penny. Someday when I own a permanent space that's exactly what I'm going to do. Thanks, Carl! With those disclaimers out of the way, here it is: Dok's guide to monitor placement in your HOME recording studio
|
|
|
Post by dok on Aug 12, 2024 13:10:51 GMT -6
I had no idea either... dok and ericn have had some great ideas - you guys wanna share? Thanks, I'm all ears! Also, another question. That SOS article really sold me, but there's no way I can buy a pair of of $1700 subs or whatever. If I'm adding subs just to reinforce low end gaps (as opposed to making it sound PHAT!!!!), can I do that in the $300 - $500 per sub price point or am I risking causing more problems than I'm solving? I'm guessing configurability is pretty key here. Yes, you can! In fact, this is exactly why I use the cheapest decent sub with a secondary subwoofer out, the Presonus T10. I think it's like $400. But it only works *with the method I use* because you're using it to activate the room modes. For more on that see the post/link above. The T10 probably doesn't measure great compared to something high end but that's okay in this particular application as long as we're not distorting the crap out of it. Again, you will want to measure with REQ Wizard and make sure that all results (including distortion) are within an acceptable range for you once you have things optimized.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,946
|
Post by ericn on Aug 12, 2024 13:33:31 GMT -6
I had no idea either... dok and ericn have had some great ideas - you guys wanna share? OK here are the basics the idea is true stereo not just 2 subs we will get to the whys after the explanation of why after th explanation of basic hook up & position starting point. It’s very similar to hooking up a mono sub, and for this explanation we will assume you are using a powered sub with built in crossover for both High pass ( monitors) low pass sub ( subs). First read your subs manual it really shouldn’t matter but various subs have different suggestions as to which input you should use on the crossover for a single mono input ( each sub gets one mono input for dual mono / stereo) make sure though you are reading about how to keep the crossover engaged, some subs have an input for THX that bypasses the crossover. From here it’s pretty simple take the left output of the monitor controller to most likely the left input ( old school default for mono operation is left ) of the sub then take left high pass out to the left monitor we are assuming powered monitors). For the right take the right out of the monitor controller to the left ch input of your right sub and the left ch high pass to the left monitor. Now if you’re running monitors like my Quested F11 actives or most Genelecs with settings for high pass / LF roll off that will work as the crossover we can clean up the signal a bit, most of the crossover’s digital or analog built into subs suck so if we can remove it from the chain best to do it. In this case we need some Y cables. Take the Y cable out of the monitor controller left ch out one end of the Y goes to the monitor set the LF roll off to your x over frequency, take the other end to the subs left input set the x over to as close as you can to the x-over frequency. Repeat for right using the right out put. Let’s get a bit geeky I never trust the calibration/ labeling of variable crossovers use a 1/6 th octave RTA or FFT app on your phone to dial in that variable crossover as flat as you can, you will probably see a bit of a dip ( less than 3 dB) no matter what you do. If your best results are from having your 2 halves of the crossover at slightly different frequencies ( within 1.5 octaves) no biggie asymmetrical crossovers are pretty common. Now for positioning starting point the idea here is to make the sub and the monitor act as one not a separate sub and and monitor, I’m going to make a bit of an assumption that your crossover frequencies are less than 125hz. If we use 125hz as are defacto guide 250 hz is one octave above so at best we are probably going to have the sub -24 db at 250hz if we can get the sub phase aligned with it’s monitor by front to back moving of the sub & or monitor or DSP the woofer & the subs driver will acusticallly sum if we can get the cones within .8m not the cabinets, not the frames or the suspensions / surrounds but the actual cones. The easiest way to find the best alignment position front to back is to start by playing a tone at the x over frequency switch the polarity of the monitor move the speaker or the sub till the tone is basically nothing or its lowest level because of phase cancellation, now play tones an octave above and below the crossover frequency and see how well they null. Your best position is going to probably be where ever those 3 tones are at their over all lowest. While if we go with the point with the best cancellation at the crossover point we would be technically “ time aligned if they perfectly cancel, that isn’t necessarily going to translate to the overall best position because we are dealing with the phase response of 2 different drivers and filters on each side. When you get the position and level adjustments right you will notice less mid bass suck out, loads more 200hz chest thump. Better definition of the harmonics of LF instruments. Your sound stage might change a bit because your panning is going to actually determine your LF positioning & over the years I have noticed that a lot of subs use a simple trick to get some more umph when they combine left & right they don’t do it equally they will usually give left a .5 to 1db boost to counter any phase cancellation, you won’t have t any more.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,946
|
Post by ericn on Aug 12, 2024 13:43:09 GMT -6
I had no idea either... dok and ericn have had some great ideas - you guys wanna share? Thanks, I'm all ears! Also, another question. That SOS article really sold me, but there's no way I can buy a pair of of $1700 subs or whatever. If I'm adding subs just to reinforce low end gaps (as opposed to making it sound PHAT!!!!), can I do that in the $300 - $500 per sub price point or am I risking causing more problems than I'm solving? I'm guessing configurability is pretty key here. The better subs that cost less than a Hyundai ( as well as some that cost more) are from the world of home theater, the SVS 3000 series, HSU, JL Audio and the REL ( if used at line level) are damn good & compared to what is sold as pro bang for the buck fing bargains. On the cheap used the little Bob Carver Sunfire cubes are really fun! Had a pair of 10’s here and if they would go a bit lower they would be lots of fun. I can’t remember which one it is but if someone wants to sort through all the stuff about the Gindiski Swift introduction they use a driver that is used in both a Dayton Audio sub and a Dayton audio kit.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 12, 2024 14:49:22 GMT -6
I had no idea either... dok and ericn have had some great ideas - you guys wanna share? Thanks, I'm all ears! Also, another question. That SOS article really sold me, but there's no way I can buy a pair of of $1700 subs or whatever. If I'm adding subs just to reinforce low end gaps (as opposed to making it sound PHAT!!!!), can I do that in the $300 - $500 per sub price point or am I risking causing more problems than I'm solving? I'm guessing configurability is pretty key here. That's what I'm going to do if I do it. Just get another cheap KRK 10S...
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Aug 12, 2024 15:31:34 GMT -6
This is why this shit is so confusing…this guy is saying something completely different. He's still saying that you have to experiment with different subwoofer locations and measure, but before that basically goes right to "you don't need to buy 4 subwoofers and put them in the corners" as the only other alternative. He even says, and I'm paraphrasing, "it may measure better, but will cost $10k", which is an obvious exaggeration. I agree with the notion that a subwoofer improperly applied is worse than no subwoofer. And I'm willing to bet that most subs are improperly applied. If you google this particular YouTuber dude, some really sketchy background info comes up.
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 12, 2024 16:13:31 GMT -6
Thanks, I'm all ears! Also, another question. That SOS article really sold me, but there's no way I can buy a pair of of $1700 subs or whatever. If I'm adding subs just to reinforce low end gaps (as opposed to making it sound PHAT!!!!), can I do that in the $300 - $500 per sub price point or am I risking causing more problems than I'm solving? I'm guessing configurability is pretty key here. Yes, you can! In fact, this is exactly why I use the cheapest decent sub with a secondary subwoofer out, the Presonus T10. I think it's like $400. But it only works *with the method I use* because you're using it to activate the room modes. For more on that see the post/link above. The T10 probably doesn't measure great compared to something high end but that's okay in this particular application as long as we're not distorting the crap out of it. Again, you will want to measure with REQ Wizard and make sure that all results (including distortion) are within an acceptable range for you once you have things optimized. I'm reading through all the stuff on that other thread, I have a question. In your screen shot of the Room Simulator it looks like you have "crossover" unchecked. So you're disabling the crossover and letting the monitors run full frequency?
|
|