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Post by sam on Aug 9, 2024 15:52:50 GMT -6
No I full blown understand that, however I didn't notice this stuff with NS10s before, and I have spent a good amount of time treating and correcting my room.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 9, 2024 16:01:38 GMT -6
…it’s your room you are correcting. Kinndddddd of.... but you are changing the frequency response on the speaker in a way. You're kind of correcting the tuning of the speaker to match your room. I know nothing about speaker design so if that's not the right way to think about, consider that full on layman. |
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 9, 2024 16:02:18 GMT -6
Oh sorry man! I didn’t mean to sound pedantic, but you did say you you having a hard time feeling the need to correct expensive speakers.
Solidarity brother. It’s the battle.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 9, 2024 16:07:49 GMT -6
…it’s your room you are correcting. Kinndddddd of.... but you are changing the frequency response on the speaker in a way. You're kind of correcting the tuning of the speaker to match your room. I know nothing about speaker design so if that's not the right way to think about, consider that full on layman. You’re totally right. Room and speakers are a system. I suppose then room correction is altering speaker freq/time/phase to better match room. Others more knowledgeable than myself can better articulate this. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 9, 2024 16:38:29 GMT -6
Another thing that bugged me about the Trinnov was that it is just a computer with DA. I think at the time I had a pretty expensive, high end stereo DA that was made useless by the Trinnov DA, which was arguably much older and probably not as good. And it was all housed in a computer. With computing processing getting exponentially faster, did it really make sense that I needed a 3500 computer to run a piece of room correction software? I mean, I get the reasons why it makes sense that it's external. And I get that same argument could be made for any external digital processor, including my 8C's. That was just something that bugged me. Doesn't mean that the Trinnov was any less impressive, though. Yeah, you don’t want to use Trinnov’s DA. It’s…not great, Bob. So…I do it all digitally. I go digital out of Apollo, into Trinnov, digital out of trinnov to digital in of Hilo. So it stays digital the whole way until the Hilo. I can’t figure out how to do it all digitally with using the Apollo’s DAs. (Because it causes a feedback loop coming back in digitally) I’ve been meaning to ask one of the mathematicians here how I could get around that…then the Hilo would be superfluous. I have the Apollo Mod on the Apollo - and it’s super close sonically - to the point I can barely tell them apart. Someone was talking about the GUI sucking…I don’t know about the Nova, but the ST-2 looks like a TRS 80. lol. Not really, but it functions fine and isn’t hard to get around in - it’s just, you’re not born know what “Resolution of Energy Response” is…Here’s a little snippet video. Doesn’t get into the deep stuff and filters, but you can see what the gui of the ST-2 looks like. From the quick thing I saw with Nova, they dramatically dumbed it down…looks more like Sonarworks. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 9, 2024 16:39:15 GMT -6
I think the thing I find hard to swallow is owing a pair of speakers that are already almost $10k new, and feeling like I "need" to correct them. It feels a touch backwards to me. That said I have been definitely struggling a bit since making the switch from NS10s to the ATCs and I can't tell what is so damn different. It’s why I’d never pay $10k for monitors. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 9, 2024 16:40:42 GMT -6
…it’s your room you are correcting. I mean, technically, you are actually adjusting the speakers to make them sound correct in your environment, no matter how effed up it is. |
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Post by ericn on Aug 9, 2024 17:26:30 GMT -6
…it’s your room you are correcting. I mean, technically, you are actually adjusting the speakers to make them sound correct in your environment, no matter how effed up it is. Yeah you are adjusting the speaker to compensate for both the speake and the room’s shortcomings. Calling it system correction would probably be more appropriate but in the audiophile world they think that includes everything else. The problem is the difference between a $10K pair of speakers and a $2K pair is about the same as the difference between a pair of $600 pair and a $2k pair. It’s totally a game of diminishing returns for your investment, plus in many cases the improvement is really focused in a very narrow area depending on the designers priorities. You can pay an extra $8k and in some instances simply gain an octave of LF. |
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Post by christophert on Aug 9, 2024 17:40:46 GMT -6
My only complaints are that the software UI/UX sucks. And, it never connects the first time you launch the app. I have to open it, let it start spinning to connect, then quit and reopen it. Once it connects on the second run it always comes up muted and at -60db. So I have to click 60 times on the up arrow to get it to 0db where it's out of the way. Seems the app ignores these settings when saved in a preset. At this point it's part of my studio startup routine but is still a total pain in the ass annoyance. I leave my Nova always on, and the rest of the studio gets turned off / on. No fiddling to do, it always works. Haven't used the app yet.
I have my D&D's running through the Nova, and all 3 pairs of monitors run off my Grace switcher. No latency issues as I pretty much always track through PSI A21m's (no DSP latency)
All analog I/O
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Post by Quint on Aug 10, 2024 8:24:34 GMT -6
I've never used room correction before, but I have been interested in trying it. So this is just me thinking out loud, but I'm curious if there is a point where room correction can actually push your monitors beyond their intended range?
For example, let's say you have some deep nulls in your room in the under 200 hz range. Well the room correction is going to boost volume at those null frequencies to compensate, possibly by quite a few dB. So what if you're already used to monitoring at a loudness level just below where distortion starts to get introduced in your monitors, and then you start using room correction? I could see where those aforementioned boosts at those nulls could then push your monitors over the edge into distortion territory on the low end.
Yeah, you can turn the monitors down, but what if you don't notice the added distortion? It might just be subtle enough to not notice or, alternatively, you might notice the distortion, but just say to yourself that the distortion was always there in the actual mix, and that you just weren't hearing it because of the nulls.
I've wondered about this for a while. As monitors don't provide any sort of feedback to the room correction, any monitor distortion created as a result doesn't get accounted for. And, since the room correction has now created more than one variable changing at a time, the end user may not realize that their monitors are distorting, and simply chalk it up to the room correction software revealing additional distortion in their mix that was always there (but actually isn't).
As distortion is commonly used all of the time as a way to make bass more intelligible for bass light systems like phones and laptops, you could end up thinking you've made the low end sufficiently intelligible in your mix, when it turns out that the room correction was just distorting your monitors.
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Post by sam on Aug 10, 2024 11:42:59 GMT -6
I think the thing I find hard to swallow is owing a pair of speakers that are already almost $10k new, and feeling like I "need" to correct them. It feels a touch backwards to me. That said I have been definitely struggling a bit since making the switch from NS10s to the ATCs and I can't tell what is so damn different. It’s why I’d never pay $10k for monitors. Well me neither (I got them used for $5k) buuuut they are $10k new haha |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 10, 2024 11:51:01 GMT -6
I've never used room correction before, but I have been interested in trying it. So this is just me thinking out loud, but I'm curious if there is a point where room correction can actually push your monitors beyond their intended range? For example, let's say you have some deep nulls in your room in the under 200 hz range. Well the room correction is going to boost volume at those null frequencies to compensate, possibly by quite a few dB. So what if you're already used to monitoring at a loudness level just below where distortion starts to get introduced in your monitors, and then you start using room correction? I could see where those aforementioned boosts at those nulls could then push your monitors over the edge into distortion territory on the low end. Yeah, you can turn the monitors down, but what if you don't notice the added distortion? It might just be subtle enough to not notice or, alternatively, you might notice the distortion, but just say to yourself that the distortion was always there in the actual mix, and that you just weren't hearing it because of the nulls. I've wondered about this for a while. As monitors don't provide any sort of feedback to the room correction, any monitor distortion created as a result doesn't get accounted for. And, since the room correction has now created more than one variable changing at a time, the end user may not realize that their monitors are distorting, and simply chalk it up to the room correction software revealing additional distortion in their mix that was always there (but actually isn't). As distortion is commonly used all of the time as a way to make bass more intelligible for bass light systems like phones and laptops, you could end up thinking you've made the low end sufficiently intelligible in your mix, when it turns out that the room correction was just distorting your monitors. Maybe I’m not understanding, but you lower your output on the Trinnov. Mine is at -8. Same thing in Sonarworks. My biggest boost is about 11db |
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Post by ericn on Aug 10, 2024 12:00:13 GMT -6
I've never used room correction before, but I have been interested in trying it. So this is just me thinking out loud, but I'm curious if there is a point where room correction can actually push your monitors beyond their intended range? For example, let's say you have some deep nulls in your room in the under 200 hz range. Well the room correction is going to boost volume at those null frequencies to compensate, possibly by quite a few dB. So what if you're already used to monitoring at a loudness level just below where distortion starts to get introduced in your monitors, and then you start using room correction? I could see where those aforementioned boosts at those nulls could then push your monitors over the edge into distortion territory on the low end. Yeah, you can turn the monitors down, but what if you don't notice the added distortion? It might just be subtle enough to not notice or, alternatively, you might notice the distortion, but just say to yourself that the distortion was always there in the actual mix, and that you just weren't hearing it because of the nulls. I've wondered about this for a while. As monitors don't provide any sort of feedback to the room correction, any monitor distortion created as a result doesn't get accounted for. And, since the room correction has now created more than one variable changing at a time, the end user may not realize that their monitors are distorting, and simply chalk it up to the room correction software revealing additional distortion in their mix that was always there (but actually isn't). As distortion is commonly used all of the time as a way to make bass more intelligible for bass light systems like phones and laptops, you could end up thinking you've made the low end sufficiently intelligible in your mix, when it turns out that the room correction was just distorting your monitors. This isn’t as noticeable as you might think unless you like listening at very high SPL. Even in the days of using Graphics that also introduced distortion the main complaint was the phase issues introduced by the EQ. |
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Post by dok on Aug 10, 2024 13:07:59 GMT -6
It's also not going to be perfect or anything close to it at those kind of dramatic dB boosts, which is why any of this stuff is only as effective as your room tuning and treatment *before* you use one of these solutions. Like you have/ought to spend a LOT of time already with the measuring mic and REQ Wizard and subwoofer placement and getting it dialed in as absolutely good as possible first, and only then is room correction going to actually help you. And in that instance, you hopefully shouldn't be needing an 11 dB boost. From my own experience, with the right placement you should be able to get pretty close to +- 5 dB before Sonarworks/Trinnov. THEN is when the phase correction (not just EQ) really starts to be audible and beneficial.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 10, 2024 13:24:33 GMT -6
It's also not going to be perfect or anything close to it at those kind of dramatic dB boosts, which is why any of this stuff is only as effective as your room tuning and treatment *before* you use one of these solutions. Like you have/ought to spend a LOT of time already with the measuring mic and REQ Wizard and subwoofer placement and getting it dialed in as absolutely good as possible first, and only then is room correction going to actually help you. And in that instance, you hopefully shouldn't be needing an 11 dB boost. From my own experience, with the right placement you should be able to get pretty close to +- 5 dB before Sonarworks/Trinnov. THEN is when the phase correction (not just EQ) really starts to be audible and beneficial. I have one way I can set up my room. It’s about 22x13 ish. If I wanted to get rid of that dip at 65-100 ish, I would’ve needed about 4 feet of absorption at the back of my room. I’m not losing 4 feet of the room. Plus, the trinnov corrected it with zero issues…so there’s that. Im sure moving the sub would help - I’ve got a wooden backplate on the back of my desk, so I need to cut a woofer sized hole so I can scoot it back. You know…now that I’m thinking about it. I wonder if that back piece of wood is reflecting (even though it’s behind the sub) and even resonating?? I’m scared it’s structural - but I could probably reduce it a lot with a circular saw. Or I could just take the whole thing off…but then it would be lacking side to side support. But never really considered this - but that could be a huge issue. |
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Post by ericn on Aug 10, 2024 15:16:01 GMT -6
It's also not going to be perfect or anything close to it at those kind of dramatic dB boosts, which is why any of this stuff is only as effective as your room tuning and treatment *before* you use one of these solutions. Like you have/ought to spend a LOT of time already with the measuring mic and REQ Wizard and subwoofer placement and getting it dialed in as absolutely good as possible first, and only then is room correction going to actually help you. And in that instance, you hopefully shouldn't be needing an 11 dB boost. From my own experience, with the right placement you should be able to get pretty close to +- 5 dB before Sonarworks/Trinnov. THEN is when the phase correction (not just EQ) really starts to be audible and beneficial. I have one way I can set up my room. It’s about 22x13 ish. If I wanted to get rid of that dip at 65-100 ish, I would’ve needed about 4 feet of absorption at the back of my room. I’m not losing 4 feet of the room. Plus, the trinnov corrected it with zero issues…so there’s that. Im sure moving the sub would help - I’ve got a wooden backplate on the back of my desk, so I need to cut a woofer sized hole so I can scoot it back. You know…now that I’m thinking about it. I wonder if that back piece of wood is reflecting (even though it’s behind the sub) and even resonating?? I’m scared it’s structural - but I could probably reduce it a lot with a circular saw. Or I could just take the whole thing off…but then it would be lacking side to side support. But never really considered this - but that could be a huge issue. Before you even think of taking the saw to that thing send me a couple of pics and let’s see if we can invent a structural solution! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 10, 2024 16:05:24 GMT -6
I have one way I can set up my room. It’s about 22x13 ish. If I wanted to get rid of that dip at 65-100 ish, I would’ve needed about 4 feet of absorption at the back of my room. I’m not losing 4 feet of the room. Plus, the trinnov corrected it with zero issues…so there’s that. Im sure moving the sub would help - I’ve got a wooden backplate on the back of my desk, so I need to cut a woofer sized hole so I can scoot it back. You know…now that I’m thinking about it. I wonder if that back piece of wood is reflecting (even though it’s behind the sub) and even resonating?? I’m scared it’s structural - but I could probably reduce it a lot with a circular saw. Or I could just take the whole thing off…but then it would be lacking side to side support. But never really considered this - but that could be a huge issue. Before you even think of taking the saw to that thing send me a couple of pics and let’s see if we can invent a structural solution! Yeah - I’d have to leave some part of it…maybe cut a frame out big enough to slide it through. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 10, 2024 16:55:43 GMT -6
Or just figure out how big a hole you need to cut to absorb this frequencies?
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 10, 2024 17:06:03 GMT -6
It's also not going to be perfect or anything close to it at those kind of dramatic dB boosts, which is why any of this stuff is only as effective as your room tuning and treatment *before* you use one of these solutions. Like you have/ought to spend a LOT of time already with the measuring mic and REQ Wizard and subwoofer placement and getting it dialed in as absolutely good as possible first, and only then is room correction going to actually help you. And in that instance, you hopefully shouldn't be needing an 11 dB boost. From my own experience, with the right placement you should be able to get pretty close to +- 5 dB before Sonarworks/Trinnov. THEN is when the phase correction (not just EQ) really starts to be audible and beneficial. I have one way I can set up my room. It’s about 22x13 ish. If I wanted to get rid of that dip at 65-100 ish, I would’ve needed about 4 feet of absorption at the back of my room. I’m not losing 4 feet of the room. Plus, the trinnov corrected it with zero issues…so there’s that. Im sure moving the sub would help - I’ve got a wooden backplate on the back of my desk, so I need to cut a woofer sized hole so I can scoot it back. You know…now that I’m thinking about it. I wonder if that back piece of wood is reflecting (even though it’s behind the sub) and even resonating?? I’m scared it’s structural - but I could probably reduce it a lot with a circular saw. Or I could just take the whole thing off…but then it would be lacking side to side support. But never really considered this - but that could be a huge issue. sub placement can make a huge difference. Using REW I got rid of a huge null around 100-250hz by simply turning my sub 90 degrees so that it faced side to side rather that parallel with my speakers. |
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Post by ericn on Aug 10, 2024 21:57:33 GMT -6
Before you even think of taking the saw to that thing send me a couple of pics and let’s see if we can invent a structural solution! Yeah - I’d have to leave some part of it…maybe cut a frame out big enough to slide it through. Send me pics!! |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 10, 2024 21:58:47 GMT -6
I have one way I can set up my room. It’s about 22x13 ish. If I wanted to get rid of that dip at 65-100 ish, I would’ve needed about 4 feet of absorption at the back of my room. I’m not losing 4 feet of the room. Plus, the trinnov corrected it with zero issues…so there’s that. Im sure moving the sub would help - I’ve got a wooden backplate on the back of my desk, so I need to cut a woofer sized hole so I can scoot it back. You know…now that I’m thinking about it. I wonder if that back piece of wood is reflecting (even though it’s behind the sub) and even resonating?? I’m scared it’s structural - but I could probably reduce it a lot with a circular saw. Or I could just take the whole thing off…but then it would be lacking side to side support. But never really considered this - but that could be a huge issue. sub placement can make a huge difference. Using REW I got rid of a huge null around 100-250hz by simply turning my sub 90 degrees so that it faced side to side rather that parallel with my speakers. I shall repeat what I have said way too many times, stereo subs!!!😁 |
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Post by dok on Aug 10, 2024 23:40:51 GMT -6
sub placement can make a huge difference. Using REW I got rid of a huge null around 100-250hz by simply turning my sub 90 degrees so that it faced side to side rather that parallel with my speakers. ding ding ding ding There are six different directions in which a subwoofer can fire and each position can also be polarity-reversed - that's twelve options for one subwoofer location. Since the point of a subwoofer is to activate your room modes and fill in those nulls, it's absolutely worth testing these to see which direction accomplishes that the best. My current small room has the sub centered against the front wall and firing directly at it, but my former, larger room had it in the corner for best results. And, like ericn reminds us, I got even better results with a second sub on the right wall about 2/3 of the length of the wall behind me, but every room will be different. mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/www.soundonsound.com/techniques/elephant-control-room |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 11, 2024 8:30:00 GMT -6
sub placement can make a huge difference. Using REW I got rid of a huge null around 100-250hz by simply turning my sub 90 degrees so that it faced side to side rather that parallel with my speakers. ding ding ding ding There are six different directions in which a subwoofer can fire and each position can also be polarity-reversed - that's twelve options for one subwoofer location. Since the point of a subwoofer is to activate your room modes and fill in those nulls, it's absolutely worth testing these to see which direction accomplishes that the best. My current small room has the sub centered against the front wall and firing directly at it, but my former, larger room had it in the corner for best results. And, like ericn reminds us, I got even better results with a second sub on the right wall about 2/3 of the length of the wall behind me, but every room will be different. mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/www.soundonsound.com/techniques/elephant-control-roomThat second article is awesome. Thanks for the link. “ Yes, subwoofers. Properly positioned — and two are always better than one for phase–correcting axial modes — they will begin to fill in your Grand Canyon of missing bass information. This is the only way the canyon can be filled, and no room is too small for this to work.” |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 11, 2024 8:30:39 GMT -6
Now my question is how in the world do I add a second sub to my setup?
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 11, 2024 8:32:54 GMT -6
“ You don’t tune a room: you tune the monitors. There is only one position that can be accurate and that’s your position in front of the monitors. The laws of physics dictate this, not me.”
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