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Post by hadaja on Jul 17, 2024 16:58:40 GMT -6
Confession: I love buying gear and hearing how it works with things.
After having reached the goal of getting some Km84's, I thought it was all done with SDC mics. But there is always a hankering for - "I wonder what this XXX mic would sound like?....."
And the Scheops CMC6 was one of those that fell into that category, so I knew eventually I would have to get one or more to try it out.
Being lucky enough to have owned lots of different SDC's throughout the years, I thought I would to try listening to a selection of these as I just snagged a nice new CMC6/MK4 combo.
You know I came to the conclusion, like you do with a lot of higher end things - there is not a lot of difference in the sound of these types of mics.
I was reminded again how the last 5-10% difference of some of these mics in sound - were they really worth that chase?
After hearing some of these SDC's (on-axis) again it made me think about the KM84's and there signature sound and that there are actually quite a few mics out there and they could easily handle the same duties as a Km84 with no qualms.
But why do I keep thinking that I really need this mic or that pre-amp or this compressor or that Large Tube mic?.......
Does mindset and psychology have a lot to answer too for these thoughts?
Anyway enough raving.
Would love to hear your thoughts and here is a little picture of some the latest test out SDC's.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Jul 17, 2024 18:21:36 GMT -6
As an owner and devotee to my four glorious KM84s, you're not wrong.
We have a pair of Sennheiser MKH 8040s that stand up proudly alongside them. I had an engineer use a pair of old Schoeps on me a few months ago. They do the job.
But when buying older mics, you have to consider them from an investment standpoint. KM84s and the other "great" mics continually increase in value.
Looks like a MKH 8040s is $1,400 and a pair is $2,700 new. Used on Reverb and eBay, I see where one sold for $900 ($500 less than new) and there's a pair currently available for $1,950 ($750 less than new).
Also, clients will get excited about a big old U47 or 44BX in front of them. So, it's both job recruitment and collector value.
On the other hand...it doesn't make sense for most studios or engineers to have ONLY investment pieces. You need good utility mics as well.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Jul 17, 2024 18:26:27 GMT -6
Now, I will say I've tried a very clean pair of Neumann U64s. They are not even close to the league of a KM84 sonically.
So, not all expensive SDCs are created equal. Not even the old German ones.
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Post by wiz on Jul 17, 2024 18:30:02 GMT -6
the thing with the km84... is off axis
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Ward on Jul 17, 2024 18:35:36 GMT -6
As an owner and devotee to my four glorious KM84s, you're not wrong. We have a pair of Sennheiser MKH 8040s that stand up proudly alongside them. I had an engineer use a pair of old Schoeps on me a few months ago. They do the job. But when buying older mics, you have to consider them from an investment standpoint. KM84s and the other "great" mics continually increase in value. Looks like a MKH 8040s is $1,400 and a pair is $2,700 new. Used on Reverb and eBay, I see where one sold for $900 ($500 less than new) and there's a pair currently available for $1,950 ($750 less than new). Also, clients will get excited about a big old U47 or 44BX in front of them. So, it's both job recruitment and collector value. On the other hand...it doesn't make sense for most studios or engineers to have ONLY investment pieces. You need good utility mics as well.  images.app.goo.gl/wFBtbEN6tDGnwSKw9 He's right you know, as always |
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Post by rowmat on Jul 17, 2024 19:40:59 GMT -6
The two main attributes of KM84’s that I’ve yet to find in other SDC’s…
1. Off axis response
2. The midrange
Irrespective of what benefits other mics offer they are basically the primary two characteristics that makes a KM84 a KM84. (IMO)
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Post by damoongo on Jul 17, 2024 19:55:03 GMT -6
the thing with the km84... is off axis cheers Wiz As in, the spill from other instruments is more flattering than other sdc’s? |
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Post by smashlord on Jul 17, 2024 20:11:49 GMT -6
KM84s, as others have mentioned, are great because of the the wide, off axis response. Put them up on OHS and you have less of a hole in the middle compared to other SDCs. This is where I think they really stand apart.
I like how they accentuate the "wood" of acoustic instruments, but other SDCs have cool sounds, so its all a taste/situation dependent thing.
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Post by yotonic on Jul 17, 2024 20:42:48 GMT -6
I keep a pair close miked on my grand piano through a 1073 using a configuration from Val Garay. Sounds awesome like records of the 70s.
VAL: "My favorite piano to record is a pre-WWII Steinway B 7′ Grand (http://www.steinway.com/pianos/steinway/grand/model-b/). The amount of punch and size of that piano has been unmatched in my experiences. My mics of preference are a pair of AKG 452EB’s, but you can also use AKG 451B’s. I place them on the inside facing down at the strings at an angle of about 15 degrees towards the pianist. The mics are just about centered with middle C on the keyboard and the capsules are spaced between 15 and 20 inches from each other. The angle between the two mics is about 75 degrees with the capsules about an inch off of the strings and 3-5 inches back from the hammers.
I learned this technique from sessions with Elton John’s producer, Gus Dudgeon, back in the early ‘70s at the Sound Factory, Hollywood. We were doing strings and horns on “Philadelphia Freedom.” I couldn’t believe how huge the piano sounded. I’ve been micing pianos this way ever since and it never fails to produce a massive and wide sound."
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Post by sean on Jul 17, 2024 22:01:36 GMT -6
I keep a pair close miked on my grand piano through a 1073 using a configuration from Val Garay. Sounds awesome like records of the 70s. VAL: "My favorite piano to record is a pre-WWII Steinway B 7′ Grand (http://www.steinway.com/pianos/steinway/grand/model-b/). The amount of punch and size of that piano has been unmatched in my experiences. My mics of preference are a pair of AKG 452EB’s, but you can also use AKG 451B’s. I place them on the inside facing down at the strings at an angle of about 15 degrees towards the pianist. The mics are just about centered with middle C on the keyboard and the capsules are spaced between 15 and 20 inches from each other. The angle between the two mics is about 75 degrees with the capsules about an inch off of the strings and 3-5 inches back from the hammers. I learned this technique from sessions with Elton John’s producer, Gus Dudgeon, back in the early ‘70s at the Sound Factory, Hollywood. We were doing strings and horns on “Philadelphia Freedom.” I couldn’t believe how huge the piano sounded. I’ve been micing pianos this way ever since and it never fails to produce a massive and wide sound." I’m trying to visualize what this looks like. Is there a picture of his set up? I’m always struggling to get pianos to sit in a rock track |
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Post by yotonic on Jul 17, 2024 23:14:18 GMT -6
  . |
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Post by crillemannen on Jul 18, 2024 3:03:34 GMT -6
The km84 might be the best utility microphone ever made. Is it worth 2-3k a piece, no but they are special and work on just about anything.
I do enjoy them on drums, the way they capture the weight of the stick hitting the cymbals and shells is special. Also the balanced sound on acoustic guitar just sounds right.
With a pair of Km84 and a U87(vintage) you can make a topnotch production so in that sense they're worth every penny. I got mine when they went for about 800-1k a piece. The km84 mint pair I have is probably the last mics I will sell.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 18, 2024 7:18:49 GMT -6
My favourite SDC is the Shoeps CMC6 MK4.
I only have one and it's on my radar to buy another so I have a stereo pair.
I've yet to hear a SDC I prefer on a Martin D18 .... you can almost smell the wood!
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Post by sean on Jul 18, 2024 7:25:35 GMT -6
Thanks! I’ll have to try this over the weekend |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 18, 2024 13:39:51 GMT -6
KM-84s take eq. exceptionally well.
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Post by hadaja on Jul 18, 2024 14:28:08 GMT -6
Yotonic - Thanks for sharing the piano tip. That sounds like one I really want to try.
I had the pleasure of having a chap in the studio who had a Scheopes CM65 tube mic. I didnt realise it was tube until towrda the end when I felt the body getting warm/hot. I was surpriosed at how tube sounding "it wasnt".
I used to think that tube pres and mic's gave you the syrupy lovely thick sound, but the CM65 didnt. It actually sounded a little crunchy on the top but I think it needs plenty of warm up time to be at its best.
It did make me think that I would keep my eye out for one of these as well, but prioces on these are worse then the CMC6.
Thanks for the comments made so far.
I do realise the off axis advatage thingy with KM84 but when you are a small studio with mainly solo/duo recordings that feature has less bearing for me.
As a side note: I did find the Miktek C5 SDC was a golden little mic for its value price and stood its ground very firm against the KM84. More so then the Warbler flat SDC mic.
Whilst I think now there might be a case where certain SDC mics pair up well with some preamps over other preamps could be the next rabbit hole I go down.
Is there a special combo that works for you guys as I just tend to go SDC mic > Neve clone> Compressor to Computer interface?
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Post by mcirish on Jul 18, 2024 14:45:58 GMT -6
Here we are with another KM84 thread... so once again I will bore the masses and state that the Oktava MK-012 (when used in a close mic situation on an acoustic instument) is indistinguishable from a KM84. Ok.. there, I feel better. :-)
Off-axis... ummmm... not so much. Countdown for Bill to back me up on this. We've both done this test.
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Post by drbill on Jul 18, 2024 15:22:36 GMT -6
I do realise the off axis advatage thingy with KM84 but when you are a small studio with mainly solo/duo recordings that feature has less bearing for me. I would argue that in those circumstances the KM84's off axis response becomes even MORE critical. |
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Post by hadaja on Jul 18, 2024 15:35:01 GMT -6
I do realise the off axis advatage thingy with KM84 but when you are a small studio with mainly solo/duo recordings that feature has less bearing for me. I would argue that in those circumstances the KM84's off axis response becomes even MORE critical. Oooh this sounds interesting. IF you feel obliging I would love to hear your honest thoughts on this? An opportunity to learning something new to practise sounds wonderful. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 18, 2024 15:55:28 GMT -6
Everyone is acting like the off axis response of a Schoeps or DPA is bad or something. It's not. Its great, just as great IMO as a KM84. And way less noisey.
Theres a reason why all us Classic engineers use them...
And if you want a "wider" off axis sound. Get an Schoeps MK21.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 18, 2024 18:06:24 GMT -6
Here we are with another KM84 thread... so once again I will bore the masses and state that the Oktava MK-012 (when used in a close mic situation on an acoustic instument) is indistinguishable from a KM84. Ok.. there, I feel better. :-) Off-axis... ummmm... not so much. Countdown for Bill to back me up on this. We've both done this test. The Oktavas are decent but they aren’t KM84’s. There is a valid argument that many find they are closer to KM84’s than a lot of far more costly SDC’s and in a mix you probably couldn’t tell the difference. Apart from the well documented off axis response of the KM84 the Oktavas are looser in the lows and more susceptible to proximity effect (and wind noise) when close micing and are a little more ‘smiley faced’ in their response than a KM84. The KM84’s midrange is typically focused, dry and tight and in front of many traditional acoustic guitars such as older Martins and Gibson’s etc. they sound just right. Another thing regarding the KM84 is we’ve heard so many of them on classic albums over the last 50 years that it becomes embedded in your psyche as being ‘that sound’ even if you’re not particularly aware of it. It’s like U47’s, or Cole 4038’s, or Pultecs or EMT140’s. For me the first time I used a KM84 was definitely an “Ah Ha!” moment. And that is after years of using Oktavas, KM184’s, AKG 451’s, and others. |
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Post by Ward on Jul 18, 2024 18:56:17 GMT -6
Here we are with another KM84 thread... so once again I will bore the masses and state that the Oktava MK-012 (when used in a close mic situation on an acoustic instument) is indistinguishable from a KM84. Ok.. there, I feel better. :-) Off-axis... ummmm... not so much. Countdown for Bill to back me up on this. We've both done this test. True, but it is a tiny bit darker. You know what sounds like a KM84 almost all the time in every application? cserrano's S84 clone. And he includes a bunch of capsules. Get you some of that! |
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Post by bradd on Jul 18, 2024 20:09:02 GMT -6
I do realise the off axis advatage thingy with KM84 but when you are a small studio with mainly solo/duo recordings that feature has less bearing for me. I would argue that in those circumstances the KM84's off axis response becomes even MORE critical. Dr. Bill, can you explain what you mean by this? Thank you. |
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Post by ragan on Jul 18, 2024 22:30:48 GMT -6
Unpopular opinion: I think the KM84 fetishizing has kinda jumped the shark. They're very good, solid mics. But the lol prices they've escalated to are more about internet forum mythology than quality/utility.
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Post by crillemannen on Jul 19, 2024 1:35:24 GMT -6
Here we are with another KM84 thread... so once again I will bore the masses and state that the Oktava MK-012 (when used in a close mic situation on an acoustic instument) is indistinguishable from a KM84. Ok.. there, I feel better. :-) Off-axis... ummmm... not so much. Countdown for Bill to back me up on this. We've both done this test. True, but it is a tiny bit darker. You know what sounds like a KM84 almost all the time in every application? cserrano's S84 clone. And he includes a bunch of capsules. Get you some of that! The Serrano is nice but it really doesn't have the Km84 Mojo sound. It is brighter and more metallic, faster on the transients as well. A nice microphone for a great price but like most km-inspired microphones fall short in that aspect. |
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