mrcel0
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by mrcel0 on Jul 5, 2024 19:37:44 GMT -6
So i’ve been ITB up until last year, my first year of experiencing what outboard gear can do has been a rabbit hole to say the least. At first, I purchased GAP73 Premier, Klark Tekniks 76, 2A, and EQP, which acted as a taste test for me and realizing that it was really worth the investment, I ended up selling the KTs for an Audioscape Opto. This is the first piece of outboard where I really know it’s doing something beyond a plugin, even then the differences in a heavy mix can not always be heard.
I also tried the Warm EQP (disliked the EQP-KT) and it’s better.. but it doesn’t give me that same feeling and quite frankly it gets beaten by plugins in some instances.
With that said, I was thinking of getting an Audioscape EQP or 76 next but honestly when i’m listening to these shoutouts it’s so close that i’m not sure if I would wanna spend another grand for something so minor. What is your most essential outboard gear for your tracking that you wouldn’t let go and that you find provides provides a feeling and sonic advantage you can’t get with plugins? (I own a Pre and Comp)
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Post by robo on Jul 5, 2024 19:55:44 GMT -6
If your mics and preamps are solid, then a good fast peak compressor for tracking (esp. vocals, bass, percussion) will go a long way. Which one really depends on what sounds you are into. 1176 clones are not the only option.
Slower hardware compressors and eq’s are a luxury, IMO, as those things have been emulated reasonably well in software.
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Post by guitfiddler on Jul 5, 2024 19:57:33 GMT -6
Starting with the talent in front of the mic…Analog console/mixer/good sized, good sounding tracking room with great mics/outboard/converters was the difference for me. This is a deep opening of the can of worms. Budget can make a good difference, especially now with the huge price hikes on everything. I’ve been building and doing a lot of DIY to cut costs on certain things where I can. The biggest thing I noticed over the years. I’d get a good 4k compressor, and a good stereo/mono tube Compressor/Limiter. Another thing that really changed things for me decades ago while experimenting was using outboard preamps into an inline vintage console with multiple sets of transformers throughout the signal chain. The iron is the sauce in the sound, as well as all that other analog opamp goodness in the chain. This is a subject that causes us to go half crazy and spend more money than we should.
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Post by russellcreekps on Jul 5, 2024 20:01:50 GMT -6
Hmmm, I had typed out a whole response suggesting the 76, but after reading your post in more depth, I’ve never owned a 76 so have no idea how close the plugins are to the real deal…but the 76A looks delightful! I do have a pair of their EQP’s and while I wouldn’t call them essential while tracking, they definitely sound much better than the plugins I’ve tried.
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mrcel0
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by mrcel0 on Jul 5, 2024 21:27:03 GMT -6
If your mics and preamps are solid, then a good fast peak compressor for tracking (esp. vocals, bass, percussion) will go a long way. Which one really depends on what sounds you are into. 1176 clones are not the only option. Slower hardware compressors and eq’s are a luxury, IMO, as those things have been emulated reasonably well in software. I was under the impression that a slow opto compressor such as the la2a was harder to emulate than a FET 1176, tubes and all. What faster style compressors would you suggest I check out? Mainly for vox. (Looking to spend $1K) |
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mrcel0
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by mrcel0 on Jul 5, 2024 21:43:29 GMT -6
Starting with the talent in front of the mic…Analog console/mixer/good sized, good sounding tracking room with great mics/outboard/converters was the difference for me. This is a deep opening of the can of worms. Budget can make a good difference, especially now with the huge price hikes on everything. I’ve been building and doing a lot of DIY to cut costs on certain things where I can. The biggest thing I noticed over the years. I’d get a good 4k compressor, and a good stereo/mono tube Compressor/Limiter. Another thing that really changed things for me decades ago while experimenting was using outboard preamps into an inline vintage console with multiple sets of transformers throughout the signal chain. The iron is the sauce in the sound. This is a subject that causes us to go half crazy and spend more money than we should. Eventually when my budget calls for it I will keep this in mind as an end goal. Interesting, the iron being the sauce i’ll have to look into why that is. Yes I can feel myself already slowly starting to lose it |
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Post by russellcreekps on Jul 5, 2024 21:43:45 GMT -6
If your mics and preamps are solid, then a good fast peak compressor for tracking (esp. vocals, bass, percussion) will go a long way. Which one really depends on what sounds you are into. 1176 clones are not the only option. Slower hardware compressors and eq’s are a luxury, IMO, as those things have been emulated reasonably well in software. I was under the impression that a slow opto compressor such as the la2a was harder to emulate than a FET 1176, tubes and all. What faster style compressors would you suggest I check out? Mainly for vox. (Looking to spend $1K) Likewise…I’ve never tried a 76 (other ‘fast’ comps though) because I’m digging what the plugin emulations do. But I really would like to try the AS 76A at some point (dirt, noise and all!). I owned the AS Opto and it is tone for days beyond the plug emulations I’ve tried (mostly UAD). PS. Only sold it because I really wanted stereo with bypass. I don’t think you’ll find a better option that their 76A for $1K…but I’ve been wrong many times before!  . (Actually Stam could be another one to look at) |
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 5, 2024 21:48:42 GMT -6
Speaking of faster comps for tracking, I can't think of a better one than the CAPI FC526. I can get away with all kinds of nonsense with that unit. It's really nice and 1176-like in its setup. I need to get off my butt and finish my second build that's been sitting in the shop for a while now.
For out of the box stuff though, I think the best bang for the bus is on the mixbus. I really like the following: LTL RGB with Pentode and Royal Blue, Audioscape G bus comp, Wes Audio Prometheus, RND 542 Tape EMUs, and on the parallel drum bus side I have a pair of Kush Tweezers going into my DRS EQs. It would take me a lot more money and space to mix OTB on many channels. So I have a couple OTB chains for lead vox and bass but most of my outboard is 2 bus and tracking.
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mrcel0
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by mrcel0 on Jul 5, 2024 21:56:40 GMT -6
Speaking of faster comps for tracking, I can't think of a better one than the CAPI FC526. I can get away with all kinds of nonsense with that unit. It's really nice and 1176-like in its setup. I need to get off my butt and finish my second build that's been sitting in the shop for a while now. For out of the box stuff though, I think the best bang for the bus is on the mixbus. I really like the following: LTL RGB with Pentode and Royal Blue, Audioscape G bus comp, Wes Audio Prometheus, RND 542 Tape EMUs, and on the parallel drum bus side I have a pair of Kush Tweezers going into my DRS EQs. It would take me a lot more money and space to mix OTB on many channels. So I have a couple OTB chains for lead vox and bass but most of my outboard is 2 bus and tracking. This might be really silly and wrong, but i've been using MSED to process the middle and side of a mix (as not to muck up the center image) with my Opto and then just adjusting to where I like the sound, adjusting the side chain as needed, usually the needle doesn’t even move or moves very rarely. I find after decoding the mid/side back, then blending with the original mix as a sort of parallel mixbus compression has made my mixes punchier and fuller while retaining some dynamics. It’s honestly extremely satisfying and fun. A stereo unit would probably be a direction i’d want to go. |
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Post by damoongo on Jul 5, 2024 23:08:24 GMT -6
Not sure what kind of music you make, but I say: Save up your money for really exquisite pieces that will inspire you, make your recordings a cut above, and even draw in clients. Vintage 67 or 47. La2a. 176a etc…. They end up paying for themselves
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 6, 2024 1:43:12 GMT -6
I've got an AS Opto and it's a great compressor it sits in a rack with compressors that cost 5x as much and holds it's own easily.
AS make great gear.
Tracking, personally I wouldn't use a 76 - save it for the mix.
Get a BLA Bluey to demo - they are truly excellent during a mix and will add crunch, attack and vibe to vocals (of course) plus snares, kicks, guitar, bass - really great comp.
Put a HOSA in-line attenuator on the front end and you can even make it behave more like a std 76. I highly recommend a demo of the Bluey.
Save up for a Coil CA-70s, this tube pre will change your audio world.
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mrcel0
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by mrcel0 on Jul 6, 2024 1:56:20 GMT -6
I've got an AS Opto and it's a great compressor it sits in a rack with compressors that cost 5x as much and holds it's own easily. AS make great gear. Tracking, personally I wouldn't use a 76 - save it for the mix. Get a BLA Bluey to demo - they are truly excellent during a mix and will add crunch, attack and vibe to vocals (of course) plus snares, kicks, guitar, bass - really great comp. Put a HOSA in-line attenuator on the front end and you can even make it behave more like a std 76. I highly recommend a demo of the Bluey. Save up for a Coil CA-70s, this tube pre will change your audio world. The BLA Bluey was a potential next move for me, along with the AS 76F, but i’ve been leaning more towards the bluey now that I think about it, that dry/wet knob seems very useful |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 6, 2024 3:50:10 GMT -6
I've got an AS Opto and it's a great compressor it sits in a rack with compressors that cost 5x as much and holds it's own easily. AS make great gear. Tracking, personally I wouldn't use a 76 - save it for the mix. Get a BLA Bluey to demo - they are truly excellent during a mix and will add crunch, attack and vibe to vocals (of course) plus snares, kicks, guitar, bass - really great comp. Put a HOSA in-line attenuator on the front end and you can even make it behave more like a std 76. I highly recommend a demo of the Bluey. Save up for a Coil CA-70s, this tube pre will change your audio world. The BLA Bluey was a potential next move for me, along with the AS 76F, but i’ve been leaning more towards the bluey now that I think about it, that dry/wet knob seems very useful The wet/dry is brilliant. There is such a wide range available with the Bluey - built like a tank too. I love USA kit. |
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Post by niklas1073 on Jul 6, 2024 4:46:41 GMT -6
What do you want to achieve? What should the outboard gear accomplish? What is the goal, aesthetics, references for your tracking chain? This would help people giving more specific pointers to get you in the ballpark. Also in combination of your itb workflow to combine with your tracking chain.
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Post by nick8801 on Jul 6, 2024 5:05:45 GMT -6
I’ve been using an Iron Age Audio LH95 eq into an Audioscape v3a on the way in. The IA is great because it has lp and hp filters, and very smooth broad stoke curves. So if I know I’m going to add 1.5k on a guitar track in the box, I’ll just turn that up on the eq on the way in. Same with a few other things I track. Its great for my synths because I can shape them on the way as well as adding a touch more color to the final signal. The LH95 almost always goes into the v3a. I like it because I can just thicken things up a bit with it. Sometimes an 1176 can be too grabby and there’s no way to undo that. The v3a adds a gentle squeeze that makes things sound more finished without overdoing it. It helps me get a little more level going in as well. All that combined with my Chandler Redd pre, and I have a lot of color options going in that makes it way easier to mix in the box.
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Post by knucklehead89 on Jul 6, 2024 5:37:40 GMT -6
After good microphones, good microphone preamps are essential to me. Not necessarily an exact one just really good preamps. Phoenix, BAE, API, Capi, Burl etc. Microphones and preamps interact with each other. Really the only other thing that’s essential for tracking, for me personally, is my Audioscape 76D for vocals during tracking. I can use it in different ways but most of the time it’s to catch peaks. Sometimes I’ll dig in pretty hard to get some energy going in the vocal and the vocalist can feel that and it can effect the performance in a positive way. The Audioscape Opto is great but I use slower compression like that in the mix for than I do tracking.
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Post by ragan on Jul 6, 2024 7:24:56 GMT -6
I’ve been using an Iron Age Audio LH95 eq into an Audioscape v3a on the way in. The IA is great because it has lp and hp filters, and very smooth broad stoke curves. So if I know I’m going to add 1.5k on a guitar track in the box, I’ll just turn that up on the eq on the way in. Same with a few other things I track. Its great for my synths because I can shape them on the way as well as adding a touch more color to the final signal. The LH95 almost always goes into the v3a. I like it because I can just thicken things up a bit with it. Sometimes an 1176 can be too grabby and there’s no way to undo that. The v3a adds a gentle squeeze that makes things sound more finished without overdoing it. It helps me get a little more level going in as well. All that combined with my Chandler Redd pre, and I have a lot of color options going in that makes it way easier to mix in the box. 3A style comp is my go-to for tracking too. "Gentle squeeze" - exactly. I use a Stam SA-23A+. |
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Post by Dan on Jul 6, 2024 8:05:42 GMT -6
You don’t need any of this clone stuff. What you need are really good mics, high headroom pres, good converters, and a way to make a low latency monitoring mix whether onboard dsp or a digital mixer, an analog mixer, or a small board.
Plugins? Again stop using emulations. 99.9% of emulation plugins are totally dysfunctional.
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Post by itzprime on Jul 6, 2024 8:08:48 GMT -6
You don’t need any of this clone stuff. What you need are really good mics, high headroom pres, good converters, and a way to make a low latency monitoring mix whether onboard dsp or a digital mixer, an analog mixer, or a small board. Plugins? Again stop using emulations. 99.9% of emulation plugins are totally dysfunctional. And once you have good mics and converters, treat your room. Literally made a huge difference. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Jul 6, 2024 8:09:55 GMT -6
After treating my room with professional help, I made the move to higher quality mics (mostly Gefell and Beyer). Next, I learned how to place them correctly. I have two different style preamps, a Daking Micpre II and a pair of IIA QP5s. I also have a pair each of Capi VC528s (missing links) and Electrodyne 511 2 band Eqs. Finally, and I may be one of the only people on the forum to use them, I have a pair of Little Labs LL2a compressors to take a little edge off on the way in. I don’t mix my own stuff for release but, I have noticed that the better my tracking has become, the more my “rough mixes” sound like the finished released mixes. So, I must be doing something right because the finished product sounds a whole lot like it did going in. I don’t track drums so I don’t know anything about doing that. You don’t need a ton of stuff. Just be intentional about what you do use. EDITED: Dan and itzprime both said pretty much the same thing while I was typing this.  |
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Post by robo on Jul 6, 2024 8:38:47 GMT -6
If your mics and preamps are solid, then a good fast peak compressor for tracking (esp. vocals, bass, percussion) will go a long way. Which one really depends on what sounds you are into. 1176 clones are not the only option. Slower hardware compressors and eq’s are a luxury, IMO, as those things have been emulated reasonably well in software. I was under the impression that a slow opto compressor such as the la2a was harder to emulate than a FET 1176, tubes and all. What faster style compressors would you suggest I check out? Mainly for vox. (Looking to spend $1K) I’m not saying a good hardware opto isn’t great to have, just that I find controlling peaks during tracking to be more important to getting things to sit in a rough mix. It’s also easy to overdo smoother compression on the way in, and then you have to automate in dynamics later which is a pain. AS 1176 are good if that’s a sound you’re into. I had the blackface one before I got a Splice and got some great use out of it. I’ve only heard good things about Stam too. He’s got one with three revisions built into one. There’s the Empress ECM 519 which you can find used, and that’s a great option. Slightly rounder attack and more options. ADR Compex is another classic fet. I haven’t used the hardware myself, but lots of folks love these. Daking fet II and III are like classier, more hifi 1176’s. The best stereo option, IMO. Speaking of Daking, their newer VCA compressor can do fast compression very cleanly. Elysia comps are also good if you want something more modern, EDM-friendly. That’s my 2 cents |
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Post by Dan on Jul 6, 2024 8:40:09 GMT -6
After treating my room with professional help, I made the move to higher quality mics (mostly Gefell and Beyer). Next, I learned how to place them correctly. I have two different style preamps, a Daking Micpre II and a pair of IIA QP5s. I also have a pair each of Capi VC528s (missing links) and Electrodyne 511 2 band Eqs. Finally, and I may be one of the only people on the forum to use them, I have a pair of Little Labs LL2a compressors to take a little edge off on the way in. I don’t mix my own stuff for release but, I have noticed that the better my tracking has become, the more my “rough mixes” sound like the finished released mixes. So, I must be doing something right because the finished product sounds a whole lot like it did going in. I don’t track drums so I don’t know anything about doing that. You don’t need a ton of stuff. Just be intentional about what you do use. EDITED: Dan and itzprime both said pretty much the same thing while I was typing this. yeah a daking or anything api style will change the sound more than any clone stuff especially for voices and guitars without processing them too much. The other thing is unless the rough is perfect and pretty much ready to go except for maybe some digital parametric eq and automating faders a little bit with a good, properly set bus compressor to control the fader rides, the sound will always change in the mix to fit everything together if a bunch of stuff is going on. Especially for modern artists who aren’t well-rehearsed with good arrangements they can play live and come through with mostly stage noise or a crappy pa. Pre processing (especially how people typically end up using 1176 into la2a) can hold the mix back a ton and nobody is tracking to tape anymore when it was essentially to get as much as possible done before it hit the tape to maximize the noise floor and maybe hit the tape at the optimal level to get the saturation and hysteresis on guitars. On so many mixes, the singer gets louder but instead of getting louder at all, he or she just gets more distorted and echoey. And if you’re listening to Bruce Dickinson or Adele, who often have been brutally hammered and don’t have to get onto tape anymore, that’s not good despite how successful their recordings were. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 6, 2024 9:24:21 GMT -6
The reference above to a Stam 76 adg or adf is worth considering, as you get 3 76 circuits in one box, very versatile.
Ragan referenced his Stam 23a+, also versatile, if you could find a used one. I have never seen a used one for sale though, so I think people like them.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 6, 2024 9:35:07 GMT -6
I’ve been using an Iron Age Audio LH95 eq into an Audioscape v3a on the way in. The IA is great because it has lp and hp filters, and very smooth broad stoke curves. So if I know I’m going to add 1.5k on a guitar track in the box, I’ll just turn that up on the eq on the way in. Same with a few other things I track. Its great for my synths because I can shape them on the way as well as adding a touch more color to the final signal. The LH95 almost always goes into the v3a. I like it because I can just thicken things up a bit with it. Sometimes an 1176 can be too grabby and there’s no way to undo that. The v3a adds a gentle squeeze that makes things sound more finished without overdoing it. It helps me get a little more level going in as well. All that combined with my Chandler Redd pre, and I have a lot of color options going in that makes it way easier to mix in the box. 3A style comp is my go-to for tracking too. "Gentle squeeze" - exactly. I use a Stam SA-23A+. Nice. What ever folk use it's great to get some "analog magic" at the tracking stage. Plugins are good for control and precise EQ etc but they're not very good at adding any musical sounding tone. I get way more action from my plugins if I track with some great hardware. Then at the mix stage hybrid works so well, hardware for the important tracks and plugins for the general arrangement tracks and BV's etc. |
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Post by mike on Jul 6, 2024 10:18:59 GMT -6
My 2 cents says, consider your answer in the context of the music you like to make or most resembles certain artists you want to sound like, then study their process and tools especially their engineers to decide what hardware would move the needle for you sonic goals more.
The order of importance for me in buying quality hardware is Mic's, Pre's, Compressors. While there truly are some very good plugs and I use them, I often find they flatten the audio that tube hardware brings harmonics, depth and dimension to. Quality HW compressors make a notable sonic difference to me I prefer, but see if it does for you.
Fewer Quality hardware pieces will make more of a difference for you than having more mediocre HW pieces. Find every way you can to try before you buy, demo or return policy's while you learn what works best for the sound you are going for. Good luck!
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. (Actually Stam could be another one to look at)
