mrcel0
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Posts: 88
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Post by mrcel0 on Jul 6, 2024 10:19:52 GMT -6
You don’t need any of this clone stuff. What you need are really good mics, high headroom pres, good converters, and a way to make a low latency monitoring mix whether onboard dsp or a digital mixer, an analog mixer, or a small board. Plugins? Again stop using emulations. 99.9% of emulation plugins are totally dysfunctional. I believe some of this “clone stuff” is good, it allows those who are less financially able, to experience what going out of the box is like, the GAP73 Premier pre is no slouch. It’s a clone, sure, there is room for improvements, but this gear is really nailing the sound and doing it better than a plugin could attempt, an Audioscape Opto is also not really what one would consider a lowly clone. Plugin emulations are not all broken and also really useful esp if you’re looking for a certain flavor and you know what provides that, using stock DAW plugins or plugins that don’t inspire me or my workflow doesn’t seem better. I have a Sony C-80 which is a great mic in comparison to my old C414 XLS and Neumann TLM103. |
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mrcel0
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by mrcel0 on Jul 6, 2024 10:58:09 GMT -6
After treating my room with professional help, I made the move to higher quality mics (mostly Gefell and Beyer). Next, I learned how to place them correctly. I have two different style preamps, a Daking Micpre II and a pair of IIA QP5s. I also have a pair each of Capi VC528s (missing links) and Electrodyne 511 2 band Eqs. Finally, and I may be one of the only people on the forum to use them, I have a pair of Little Labs LL2a compressors to take a little edge off on the way in. I don’t mix my own stuff for release but, I have noticed that the better my tracking has become, the more my “rough mixes” sound like the finished released mixes. So, I must be doing something right because the finished product sounds a whole lot like it did going in. I don’t track drums so I don’t know anything about doing that. You don’t need a ton of stuff. Just be intentional about what you do use. EDITED: Dan and itzprime both said pretty much the same thing while I was typing this.  yeah a daking or anything api style will change the sound more than any clone stuff especially for voices and guitars without processing them too much. The other thing is unless the rough is perfect and pretty much ready to go except for maybe some digital parametric eq and automating faders a little bit with a good, properly set bus compressor to control the fader rides, the sound will always change in the mix to fit everything together if a bunch of stuff is going on. Especially for modern artists who aren’t well-rehearsed with good arrangements they can play live and come through with mostly stage noise or a crappy pa. Pre processing (especially how people typically end up using 1176 into la2a) can hold the mix back a ton and nobody is tracking to tape anymore when it was essentially to get as much as possible done before it hit the tape to maximize the noise floor and maybe hit the tape at the optimal level to get the saturation and hysteresis on guitars. On so many mixes, the singer gets louder but instead of getting louder at all, he or she just gets more distorted and echoey. And if you’re listening to Bruce Dickinson or Adele, who often have been brutally hammered and don’t have to get onto tape anymore, that’s not good despite how successful their recordings were. I don’t think using the Opto during tracking is ruining or holding back my mixes, if anything, it’s been hugely beneficial to them. If you know how to have just enough to graze some peaks and not ruin dynamics you get the vocal overall under better control just gives you an easier time later ITB mixing also gives you analog mojo to perform with. Tracking with hardware gives you a different result than applying it after and I prefer the former. |
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Post by niklas1073 on Jul 6, 2024 11:12:39 GMT -6
What do you want to achieve? What should the outboard gear accomplish? What is the goal, aesthetics, references for your tracking chain? This would help people giving more specific pointers to get you in the ballpark. Also in combination of your itb workflow to combine with your tracking chain. This has popped up a couple times, so I’ll give more context. I am mainly making hip hop / rnb, but I also occasionally use my acoustic/electric guitar and make something in another style. My inspirations are way too many to list but i’m using a Sony C-80 > 1073 > LA2A for the transparency. I guess for hip hop, a chain you usually hear about in this genre is of course a C-800G > 1073 > CL1B. The pre is different sometimes. Mixedbyali, dr dre, tony maserati, manny marroquin are some examples of popular hip hop inspirations, but I don’t want to box myself, I also really grew up on and love heavy metal, rock, pop punk music as well. I simply want to have gear that inspires me, allows me to get that sound and not fiddle with mixing much after. Usually ITB I just get some reverb, delay, additional compression if needed, EQ, De ess only if necessary, saturation plugins, not always but maybe some parallel mix bus compression Sounds good. Yeah, today hiphop has a very wide range of aesthetics. It’s good to know where you are coming from since in this case despite how much it would be great to give u a supportive pointer I don’t know enough of the hiphop production scene to dare to have an opinion on the tracking or mixing chain. But I’m sure there are people here who have really good knowledge in that area and will have a great opinion coming your way👍 |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2024 13:06:58 GMT -6
Don’t forget the infrastructure, quality cables, Stands, mounts & quality patchbays, sexy? No, but it will all make your life easier than any EQ or Compressor.
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Post by christopher on Jul 6, 2024 13:09:01 GMT -6
The 1073 in the famous chain would be the full module with Eq. Boosting the mids 1-3dB gives you that vocal forward thing, without seeming like any EQ is used. Just moves the voice forward. Also the low shelf can bring the sense of closeness to voice, while the high pass kills the rumble. Lots of guys make them, they are extremely useful or the originals wouldn’t be worth so much. I think a lot of class-A, transformer / inductorEQ designs sound pretty similar, so that opens the field. I’d have no problem using Iron Age EQ in that place, if you want something different
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Post by itzprime on Jul 6, 2024 14:25:14 GMT -6
And once you have good mics and converters, treat your room. Literally made a huge difference. I use a MOTU M4, used to have an Audient but it crapped out and I prefer these better, I have treated my room for tracking and mixing already as well And your room truely sounds great for drums and vocals? A good room is more inspiring than any outboard gear. |
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Post by itzprime on Jul 6, 2024 14:28:25 GMT -6
You don’t need any of this clone stuff. What you need are really good mics, high headroom pres, good converters, and a way to make a low latency monitoring mix whether onboard dsp or a digital mixer, an analog mixer, or a small board. Plugins? Again stop using emulations. 99.9% of emulation plugins are totally dysfunctional. I believe some of this “clone stuff” is good, it allows those who are less financially able, to experience what going out of the box is like, the GAP73 Premier pre is no slouch. It’s a clone, sure, there is room for improvements, but this gear is really nailing the sound and doing it better than a plugin could attempt, an Audioscape Opto is also not really what one would consider a lowly clone. Plugin emulations are not all broken and also really useful esp if you’re looking for a certain flavor and you know what provides that, using stock DAW plugins or plugins that don’t inspire me or my workflow doesn’t seem better. I have a Sony C-80 which is a great mic in comparison to my old C414 XLS and Neumann TLM103. A Sony C80 is just different than a C414 and a Neumann TLM103. I generally find the Neumann to be totally unforgiving compared to the Sony in terms of room and vocalist. |
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Post by geoff738 on Jul 6, 2024 14:36:22 GMT -6
I would ponder a swiss army knife compressor like the Tweaker or the Dave Hill Titan.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by Dan on Jul 6, 2024 15:34:07 GMT -6
I was under the impression that a slow opto compressor such as the la2a was harder to emulate than a FET 1176, tubes and all. What faster style compressors would you suggest I check out? Mainly for vox. (Looking to spend $1K) I’m not saying a good hardware opto isn’t great to have, just that I find controlling peaks during tracking to be more important to getting things to sit in a rough mix. It’s also easy to overdo smoother compression on the way in, and then you have to automate in dynamics later which is a pain. AS 1176 are good if that’s a sound you’re into. I had the blackface one before I got a Splice and got some great use out of it. I’ve only heard good things about Stam too. He’s got one with three revisions built into one. There’s the Empress ECM 519 which you can find used, and that’s a great option. Slightly rounder attack and more options. ADR Compex is another classic fet. I haven’t used the hardware myself, but lots of folks love these. Daking fet II and III are like classier, more hifi 1176’s. The best stereo option, IMO. Speaking of Daking, their newer VCA compressor can do fast compression very cleanly. Elysia comps are also good if you want something more modern, EDM-friendly. That’s my 2 cents yeah daking has more user friendly auto release than an 1176 and is a lot cleaner with more uses beyond being a shitbox. An 1176 is pretty much just a peak limiter, able to use it for slight overshoot because it’s a feedback compressor, or its most common use when dug in as a pumpy distorted shitbox |
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mrcel0
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by mrcel0 on Jul 6, 2024 15:37:19 GMT -6
I use a MOTU M4, used to have an Audient but it crapped out and I prefer these better, I have treated my room for tracking and mixing already as well And your room truely sounds great for drums and vocals? A good room is more inspiring than any outboard gear. It’s treated to the best a small box bedroom 12 x 10 x 8’ can sound, which is not necessarily an inspiring sound, far from it, I can’t really change the size of my room so, I usually get rid of all reflections with little to no room tone. I don’t play drums or have use to treat for them currently only recording my own vocals in my bedroom. |
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Post by geoff738 on Jul 6, 2024 15:37:37 GMT -6
Ok, lets not be talking up the Daking Fet II until I can find another one for a reasonable price.
Cheers,
Geoff
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mrcel0
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by mrcel0 on Jul 6, 2024 15:39:56 GMT -6
I believe some of this “clone stuff” is good, it allows those who are less financially able, to experience what going out of the box is like, the GAP73 Premier pre is no slouch. It’s a clone, sure, there is room for improvements, but this gear is really nailing the sound and doing it better than a plugin could attempt, an Audioscape Opto is also not really what one would consider a lowly clone. Plugin emulations are not all broken and also really useful esp if you’re looking for a certain flavor and you know what provides that, using stock DAW plugins or plugins that don’t inspire me or my workflow doesn’t seem better. I have a Sony C-80 which is a great mic in comparison to my old C414 XLS and Neumann TLM103. A Sony C80 is just different than a C414 and a Neumann TLM103. I generally find the Neumann to be totally unforgiving compared to the Sony in terms of room and vocalist. Agreed, i’m not saying the Sony C-80 is better than the other mics, but it is better FOR ME and my particular room, voice, taste etc. I do notice way less room capture with the Sony compared to the other mics listed |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2024 19:34:26 GMT -6
A Sony C80 is just different than a C414 and a Neumann TLM103. I generally find the Neumann to be totally unforgiving compared to the Sony in terms of room and vocalist. Agreed, i’m not saying the Sony C-80 is better than the other mics, but it is better FOR ME and my particular room, voice, taste etc. I do notice way less room capture with the Sony compared to the other mics listed Congratulations you have learned the first rule of mics for self, the concept of different not better. You will go far. |
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