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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 12, 2024 11:18:03 GMT -6
Click bait title. But there might be something to this.
I was thinking about the various AI threads going on around here and then the off-topic side discussion on the cheap interface thread. Over there the subject meandered to how the music industry has followed in the footsteps of fine arts (classical music and visual arts) in gatekeeping its way to irrelevance and mediocrity.
It seems like we need another Public Enemy or Nirvana type moment but none is coming.
So I was thinking about how that all happened to begin with. At least in the case of Nirvana they were hugely influenced by The Replacements and others that hit their stride when college kids were passing around tapes of their music along with They Might Be Giants and The Pogues and Talking Heads and all kinds of things that were not on mainstream radio.
But college campuses today aren't what they once were.
These are no longer places where new ideas are shared and kids barely out of high school take daring counter-cultural positions and try them on for size. College has become just another echo chamber for the same thoughts and beliefs that you can get anywhere else in Western society.
Even worse, just like the rest of our world, college has also become yet another place where you pick the "channel" that you like most and in return they promise to only say things that you already agree with. There's liberal colleges for liberals, conservative college for conservatives, and something for everyone else in between.
So what we lose is a cultural institution that is designed to foster new ideas including new musical ones. And nothing has stepped in and replaced that incubator.
And for that matter what about churches? New musical forms used to come out of innovative ways to build worship services. And now, same thing, churches are just another mirror reflecting the same echo chamber.
We've dismantled all the institutions that used to sit outside the world of corporate balance sheets (I'm probably forgetting others but higher education and religion used to be two BIG ones that were not corporatized), is it any wonder that we're losing our creative voice as a society?
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Also... what are the best headphones I can buy under $500 and does dithering matter and is analog better than digital and why is ITB better than hybrid?
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Post by EmRR on Jun 12, 2024 11:44:30 GMT -6
Culture no longer allows youth movements, post-modernism and expansive media niche-ism has homogenized all of time and space into one big "not now" moment.
I hear of various college radio stations shutting down because there are no students interested in it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 12, 2024 11:45:18 GMT -6
Probably more to do with no one listens to the radio anymore
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 12, 2024 11:57:05 GMT -6
IBTL
While I don't think I totally disagree. You can see in the past what 3ish years that young folks have driven protests during the George Floyd stuff and BLM. And more recently the protests against Israel.
Plus other things too through social media and more so.
I think it's just less "in person" things potentially given that these younger generations have grown up with electronic technology in a way no one ever has before. And they know how to use it in far different ways.
But echo chambers are everywhere now days not just schools. Whole towns even states themselves are becoming that. The polarization of the country will be it's down fall over time. But all empires must fall.
And HD600 for the headphones probably. Analog is better when you have the time ITB better for just about everything else. Dither always when going down from higher bit depth to lower.
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Post by doubledog on Jun 12, 2024 11:58:58 GMT -6
or maybe when you are of college age you actually think you are in the middle of some grand movement and then when you are older you realize that nothing changes (or changed) and everything remains the same. I mean really. it's the same old shit. And yeah, current college kids don't listen to radio. I mean how inconvenient would that be?
and Ionic Original Vinyl must be the best, right?
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 12, 2024 12:29:38 GMT -6
Not listening to radio is probably one of the best traits the younger generations have fostered.
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Post by drumsound on Jun 12, 2024 12:33:16 GMT -6
Speaking to music sharing and 'finding' new artists, I really think there is a lack of peer to peer in person type things. I've taught a few classes at one university and have an accompanist gig at the other one. I'll often ask both music students and dance students 'do you ever get together with friends to listen to music" and NEITHER group does that. When I was in college we did a ton of that. Whoever didn't have a gig or a date (and we were music students, so none of us had dates) we'd get together at someone's place to listen to music. Most people would show up with a record or 3, plus the host's collection, and even sometimes put on one of the college stations. We were immersed in music. We had classes and rehearsals all day, practiced every night, and played gigs we could land.
THOUGH,
The band I worked with Monday has an excellent drummer who went through the U of I jazz program, plays jazz gigs, and punk with this band, plays musicals, and has a metal gig as well. SHE KICKS ASS! Reminded me of how I was at that age.
So I still believe music will moth talk to people from both sides of the stage, and both sides of the glass.
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Post by christopher on Jun 12, 2024 13:05:18 GMT -6
I’m pretty sure phones killed it. As soon as phones came out, everyone video’d live shows. You couldn't go anywhere without a sea of phones. It demolished pro careers, as everyone would record a rough live mix, hear every mistake on a crappy phone mic, and post it online for all to see. Then the folks online would look at the price for the ticket and the people would complain what a waste.
Luckily, the same time Avid live boards meant lip syncing was fully doable. The stars embraced it, it’s not a live mix: it’s a pre-mixed show, to a click, they just play along. If the vocals are off, FOH punches in the rehearsal recording. The pro’s who went this route were saved.*
The indie artists without a team behind them? They are being compared to pre-recorded, pre-mixed perfection. They still get recorded and uploaded, it’s just they look pathetic vs the pros who are pre-mixed and locked to tempo. The pros can just play and it’s straight into a mixing session, all the adjustment and automation is baked in. They even tour with racks of outboard 1176’s etc now!
One of my fav bands is Failure, and they don’t try to hide it. The whole show is automated, even the pedal switching! It’s truly awesome show to see, highly recommended. At the same time, …who can compete these days? It feels like the soul has been removed and only perfection will suffice. And perfection gets boring over time.
*I know of a few artists who do this, and I hope it’s not a lot of them. Pretty similar to athletes on PEDs
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Post by chessparov on Jun 12, 2024 13:25:58 GMT -6
Probably more to do with no one listens to the radio anymore You had me at... "no one listens".  I bet I'm not the only one here who... Typically performs better Live than Recorded. So there's some Hope. I guess... Chris |
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Post by ericn on Jun 12, 2024 14:04:07 GMT -6
I would argue the rise of for profit Colleges and the creative paint by numbers approach to music has as much to do with as anything.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Jun 12, 2024 14:07:50 GMT -6
I’m sure those who graduated from college in the 20s and 30s thought colleges campuses collapsed in the 60s.
Kids are still making music, a lot of it very good, but older generations are too lazy to find it. In some climates the best stuff is popular, think 1965 or early hip hop. This isn’t one of those times. So dig.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 12, 2024 14:20:17 GMT -6
Speaking to music sharing and 'finding' new artists, I really think there is a lack of peer to peer in person type things. I've taught a few classes at one university and have an accompanist gig at the other one. I'll often ask both music students and dance students 'do you ever get together with friends to listen to music" and NEITHER group does that. When I was in college we did a ton of that. My friend who teaches HS guitar tells me absolutely no one wants to get up and perform in front of anyone else, their goal is better bedroom YouTube videos. His music appreciation listening sessions are meant for students to introduce music to each other. Many students immediately put their headphones on and go to their own music if they aren't instantly into the new sounds in the air, and don't understand why they should take the time to listen to something they don't immediately like. |
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Post by seawell on Jun 12, 2024 14:21:20 GMT -6
Phones/streaming are the main culprit but I think something that often gets overlooked in the decline of the popularity of music is social media. We simply have more ways to entertain ourselves & pass the time than we did before. Podcasts take the place of music for roadtrips(I’m guilty of this) and endless scrolling through social media. It’s not a step forward for society I don’t think in any way. We’re just more distracted & it’s killed our attention span for things like sitting still and just listening to music. Most people don’t just eat a meal, they eat + scroll, they don’t just watch a movie, they watch + scroll…heck, we can’t even drop a deuce these days without a phone in hand 🤣
As far as another Public Enemy, Nirvana, etc… I think the fear of stepping out of line is way stronger than it used to be because there’s so much less revenue(streaming instead of sales). Bands not really having “F.U.” level money any longer plus the threat of cancel culture is a great deterrent. It’s sad but at some point over the past few years most bands decided to start raging for the machine instead of against it.
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Post by Darren Boling on Jun 12, 2024 15:20:03 GMT -6
Also... what are the best headphones I can buy under $500 and does dithering matter and is analog better than digital and why is ITB better than hybrid? VSX, yes, sometimes, recall |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 12, 2024 15:36:23 GMT -6
Speaking to music sharing and 'finding' new artists, I really think there is a lack of peer to peer in person type things. I've taught a few classes at one university and have an accompanist gig at the other one. I'll often ask both music students and dance students 'do you ever get together with friends to listen to music" and NEITHER group does that. When I was in college we did a ton of that. Whoever didn't have a gig or a date (and we were music students, so none of us had dates) we'd get together at someone's place to listen to music. Most people would show up with a record or 3, plus the host's collection, and even sometimes put on one of the college stations. We were immersed in music. We had classes and rehearsals all day, practiced every night, and played gigs we could land. THOUGH, The band I worked with Monday has an excellent drummer who went through the U of I jazz program, plays jazz gigs, and punk with this band, plays musicals, and has a metal gig as well. SHE KICKS ASS! Reminded me of how I was at that age. So I still believe music will moth talk to people from both sides of the stage, and both sides of the glass. It's not even that long ago that my whole circle of musicians in Austin did the same. It was routine and I mean ROUTINE to say something like "hey, it's last call, wanna swing by my place and listen to some records?" The most common way to end a night was to have a nightcap and just swap records. And not even just records, this lasted all the way up through the start of the streaming era. It was highly fading by the time of the pandemic and totally gone after it. And just to be sure, I have definitely verified that it's not just "my friends are getting older." For one thing most of my friends are in their early to mid thirties, for another I play in a few projects with guys much younger than me and the concept of going to someone's apartment or house to listen to music is utterly foreign. Actually, they're usually like "wow, that sounds really fun" but nobody is like "yeah, we do that all the time." That's a big part of the problem. The lack of human interaction. The reason I'm wondering if the collapse of our colleges into political/corporate echo chambers has something to do with it is that the behavior I'm describing always felt very dorm like if that makes sense. But those behaviors are no longer dorm like. Real life example. I have a kid going to the same college I went to entering his junior year (I started young... what can I say) and I wanted to buy him a big TV for his suite this year. Real conversation... "Why?" "So that you can have all your friends hang out and play video games." "Dad, nobody does that." "You guys don't play video games anymore? That's impossible." "No, we do but we play online. There's no reason to be in the same room." "Then what's the point of having a suite if you're not going to have your friends hang out?" "I don't know, just to have more space I guess?" So this isn't the only problem... but it is a problem. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 12, 2024 15:42:37 GMT -6
As far as another Public Enemy, Nirvana, etc… I think the fear of stepping out of line is way stronger than it used to be because there’s so much less revenue(streaming instead of sales). Bands not really having “F.U.” level money any longer plus the threat of cancel culture is a great deterrent. It’s sad but at some point over the past few years most bands decided to start raging for the machine instead of against it. This for sure. That's what I'm saying in the original post. There's fewer non-corporate formats where music gets spread organically. I mean, even Limewire which was a disaster was at least non-corporate. Sure it was theft and I'm not defending it, but it was real peer-to-peer. I'm not saying that there is no good music made now. And I listen to lots of semi-underground stuff. I'm saying that there's no format that doesn't have the fingerprints of pure profit motive all over it. Our college institutions and our churches/temples/synagogues and other things I'm not thinking of used to serve that role in spades. But they are now shadows of themselves in terms of cultural relevance. One last rant... the raging FOR the machine extends even into the attitudes of musicians. They don't seem to realize it, but everything they say and do is utterly and completely mainstream. Someone else pointed out the BLM protests and such, but there is absolutely nothing politically dangerous about going to a BLM protest. Zero. Zip. Nada. If anything it was a great way to promote your brand! Haha. I conclude this sermon with a quote from the great Coen brothers... "Your revolution is over, Mr. Lebowski. Condolences. The bums lost. My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?" |
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Post by christopher on Jun 12, 2024 15:49:36 GMT -6
Also Social media at the largest scale is terrifying. Comments can be manipulated so that the “most liked” comment when you are logged in on your account can be different than someone else’s “most liked”, which can be complete opposite. There’s no oversight, the end result is going to be customized bubbles. Currently it’s even bots making all the comments. Who knows how real any of it is?
The “good” reason they do it is to place us into categories to market to, and so it can influence our buying behavior for the marketing who spends money. I’m not sure how we could get around it?
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Post by mcirish on Jun 12, 2024 15:50:09 GMT -6
Culture no longer allows youth movements, post-modernism and expansive media niche-ism has homogenized all of time and space into one big "not now" moment. I hear of various college radio stations shutting down because there are no students interested in it. I've heard the same thing. My band used to hit a bunch of college stations when we release new music. Many of the schools don't even have a radio station anymore. That used to be a cool place to hear some interesting new stuff. Not so much anymore. But this has been changing steadily for many years. I think the advent of digital audio was the starting point of music becoming "worthless" or at least not worth paying for. My kids were that way when they were in college a decade ago. They have no real vested ineterest in music. It plays no role in their day to day life. I think that's pretty sad. |
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Post by ericn on Jun 12, 2024 16:27:16 GMT -6
Culture no longer allows youth movements, post-modernism and expansive media niche-ism has homogenized all of time and space into one big "not now" moment. I hear of various college radio stations shutting down because there are no students interested in it. I've heard the same thing. My band used to hit a bunch of college stations when we release new music. Many of the schools don't even have a radio station anymore. That used to be a cool place to hear some interesting new stuff. Not so much anymore. But this has been changing steadily for many years. I think the advent of digital audio was the starting point of music becoming "worthless" or at least not worth paying for. My kids were that way when they were in college a decade ago. They have no real vested ineterest in music. It plays no role in their day to day life. I think that's pretty sad. The decline of College radio has definitely hurt every genre except Hip Hop and Rap. In the days before Clear Channel/ I HateRadio the let the kid program their own show led to a bunch of acts who didn’t quite fit the major genres get exposure. Of Course being a kid in the 80’s and having a huge antenna that could pick up WWSP UW Stevens point, at the time one of the most respected college stations might make me a bit biased. |
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Post by christopher on Jun 12, 2024 17:28:21 GMT -6
The other strange thing, I did some research this year into college endowments, and they are off the charts. All the biggest campuses have enough to survive off bond interest alone. They could have free tuition at this point. Or close all campuses and do better just on interest. Seems like something is up, too weird so many are blasted way up there.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 12, 2024 17:50:59 GMT -6
The world wide Pandemic Era didn't help either. Real classrooms = Hardware. The first year of College is over half Remedial... Accordingto my local Teacher friends. Virtual Learning is (most) Plugins.*  Plus the reality in SouthernCalifornia, is most Teens/Tweens aren't that open to even new music. Primarily "wallpaper" to most. Chris *Partly as these Drivers aren't that good. "If you don't like my driving" "Stay off the sidewlalk!" |
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Post by viciousbliss on Jun 12, 2024 17:57:33 GMT -6
There's not an infinite amount of genres to invent. The 90s had this explosion of new genres, but they were really just new takes on what was already there. Industrial, techno, death metal, melodic death metal, black metal, goth, grunge, pop-punk, etc. There are more albums than ever today. In terms of Metal, maybe we got 50-100 records in 1998. The quality was at a certain level. Now you can go on various Youtube channels that upload every album and there are 10x as many records being made today. But the quality is largely abysmal. Steve Albini once said that most music did not get recorded, so maybe there was just as much music 30+ years ago, but only 10% of artists got deals and got to record. Music is decentralized. You don't have gatekeepers anymore. Radio and MTV don't dictate what gets heard without the consumer having to dig. I've never spent time on a traditional college campus. But I can't recall anyone I knew who did live on campus 25 years ago telling me that they found out about all this music from being on campus.
Another factor is that the music of the past is extremely accessible these days. Just join a streaming service and you can find most anything. Previously, most people were stuck with very limited choices. Forced to buy what was current if they didn't want to go to record stores and either gamble on stuff or listen to albums all day before picking whatever they could afford. The limited choices forced people to kind of invent what they wanted to hear if they were a writer. Nowadays if someone just wants to copy something, they have a lot of options to rip off.
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Post by ericn on Jun 12, 2024 18:43:43 GMT -6
The other strange thing, I did some research this year into college endowments, and they are off the charts. All the biggest campuses have enough to survive off bond interest alone. They could have free tuition at this point. Or close all campuses and do better just on interest. Seems like something is up, too weird so many are blasted way up there. You’re not wrong, but there is a huge difference between the haves and the have nots when it comes to those endorsements. The schools serving those who could those who would most benefit from those funds don’t have them. You have to have a prestige program like a med school or law school, a highly regarded school of education or nursing just doesn’t generate the donations. Another interesting large revenue stream that few realize is exist is kind of interesting. Do you know what the W in Warfarin , the anti clotting drug stands for? How about the reason that the G W Bush administration only approved research for the handful of Stem Cell lines. The University of Wisconsin Research Foindation, they Make a commission on every pill & own the rights to those lines and charge to use them, at the time the former Governor of WI was Sec of Health and Human Services. So if you’re a big research University you have that. Of Course next time your tempted to donate $19.95 a month to ST Jude’s remember their endorsement is bigger than Harvard . |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 12, 2024 19:37:09 GMT -6
Just because things aren’t being done the way I would have done them or would have been involved in when I was in college doesn’t mean things aren’t moving and shaking.
I’m 41 and anytime I’m around college aged or younger folks I have absolutely no clue what they are doing or talking about. It’s a different universe and I won’t pretend to know enough to comment on it.
I don’t assume to correlate listening to radio as having interest in music. Shit I haven’t turned on the radio in over 5 years and why would I? It’s the same 20 songs played on their genre specific station over and over and over again.
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Post by ericn on Jun 12, 2024 21:30:19 GMT -6
Just because things aren’t being done the way I would have done them or would have been involved in when I was in college doesn’t mean things aren’t moving and shaking. I’m 41 and anytime I’m around college aged or younger folks I have absolutely no clue what they are doing or talking about. It’s a different universe and I won’t pretend to know enough to comment on it. I don’t assume to correlate listening to radio as having interest in music. Shit I haven’t turned on the radio in over 5 years and why would I? It’s the same 20 songs played on their genre specific station over and over and over again. So Jeremy your saying we have become our parents.😁 |
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