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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 28, 2024 12:54:54 GMT -6
I'm really wanting to drive the transformers on the RND 5057 a bit more but it's difficult to do with the 20 dBu that my MOTU AO outputs.
In order to get the Orbit to start flashing "red" I basically need to pre-limit my busses before sending them out (to avoid clipping D/A stage) and I don't want to do that. The whole point is to have the transformer saturation tame those peaks, it defeats the purpose if I'm doing it ITB.
One thing I'm going to try is to just duplicate my busses. So I'd take eight channels out to the Orbit and then duplicate those same eight channels (the transformers are after summing, so this could work). It feels like a workaround though.
But maybe there's something that could boost the signal in the analog domain after it leaves the MOTU but before it hits the Orbit?
Just looking for something that is more cost effective than redoing my entire rig with converters that can output at 24dBu.
NOTE: Orbit starts saturating more heavily at 22dbu - 24dbu and maxes out at 26dBu if I recall correctly.
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Post by drumsound on May 28, 2024 13:30:39 GMT -6
You might consider select all and adjusting all the clip gains up. If you highlight all the tracks then Shit and Control you can use +/- or the scroll wheel to adjust all the clip gains at once. |
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Post by jmoose on May 28, 2024 14:26:12 GMT -6
What about just plopping in a good old compressor or EQ with some big transfomers & plenty of make up gain?
Honestly though, while I haven't used the 5057 orbit I have spent time driving the 5088 desk... and its not the kinda thing that sounds good pushed. Not to me anyway. Its a modern desk with miles of headroom... like my SSL XL desk it goes & goes... stays clean forever until it finally clips with a really harsh, nasty digital krunch.
To put it another way... food for thought? At +24dB we're 20dB over 'nominal' operating range. Why would you want to run there as nominal? If it were a car the motor would be in the red at highway cruising speeds. Most things don't sound good there. YMMV.
FWIW I'm running a motu 16A with the XL desk and frankly, I'm a headroom challenged mixer... lots of boosting and I can't clip the rig for anything. Not unless I'm trying to be obnoxious and blow out the motor at 9000 rpm. Has more headroom then anything else in the shop...
My buddy with the 5088 desk has the same issue, the output of the desk can clip everything else including the mike spitz ATR102. So why run that hot? No point.
If you want more 'color' then you maybe want another piece or a totally different summing box/desk..?
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 28, 2024 14:52:23 GMT -6
You might consider select all and adjusting all the clip gains up. If you highlight all the tracks then Shit and Control you can use +/- or the scroll wheel to adjust all the clip gains at once. I've been doing something like that with VCA's, but the problem is clipping my outputs. Just as I'm getting the Orbit into the red I start clipping. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 28, 2024 14:57:09 GMT -6
What about just plopping in a good old compressor or EQ with some big transfomers & plenty of make up gain? Honestly though, while I haven't used the 5057 orbit I have spent time driving the 5088 desk... and its not the kinda thing that sounds good pushed. Not to me anyway. Its a modern desk with miles of headroom... like my SSL XL desk it goes & goes... stays clean forever until it finally clips with a really harsh, nasty digital krunch. To put it another way... food for thought? At +24dB we're 20dB over 'nominal' operating range. Why would you want to run there as nominal? If it were a car the motor would be in the red at highway cruising speeds. Most things don't sound good there. YMMV. FWIW I'm running a motu 16A with the XL desk and frankly, I'm a headroom challenged mixer... lots of boosting and I can't clip the rig for anything. Not unless I'm trying to be obnoxious and blow out the motor at 9000 rpm. Has more headroom then anything else in the shop... My buddy with the 5088 desk has the same issue, the output of the desk can clip everything else including the mike spitz ATR102. So why run that hot? No point. If you want more 'color' then you maybe want another piece or a totally different summing box/desk..? Fair point, and maybe I'll hate it. Which is why I don't want to spend too much money finding out! But... the Orbit is specifically designed to be pushed. They recommend that you kiss the red light to get it to saturate desirably. So something like a compressor or EQ would be great, but I need 16 channels of it to boost into the orbit. I've already got the Silver Bullet after the Orbit so I'm not looking for anything dramatic, just looking to do multiple layers of light saturation. One solution would be a clean mixer with reasonably clean boost and 16 i/o like the MixWizard or something but it feels really inelegant. Feels like there's gotta be a better way to just get 16 channels of clean gain. |
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Post by jmoose on May 28, 2024 15:40:20 GMT -6
One solution would be a clean mixer with reasonably clean boost and 16 i/o like the MixWizard or something but it feels really inelegant. Feels like there's gotta be a better way to just get 16 channels of clean gain. ??! Now you'd be running everything through a mixwizard and essentially, that's your summing. Can't imagine that sounding very good either, cascading mixers... especially one with fairly average electronics (and no headroom IMO) But who knows. Maybe you'll love it. Or maybe you'd just prefer mixing, and the tone with an A&H to the RND devices ? Certainly nothing wrong with that either... accounting for taste blah blah |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 28, 2024 16:01:58 GMT -6
One solution would be a clean mixer with reasonably clean boost and 16 i/o like the MixWizard or something but it feels really inelegant. Feels like there's gotta be a better way to just get 16 channels of clean gain. ??! Now you'd be running everything through a mixwizard and essentially, that's your summing. Can't imagine that sounding very good either, cascading mixers... especially one with fairly average electronics (and no headroom IMO) But who knows. Maybe you'll love it. Or maybe you'd just prefer mixing, and the tone with an A&H to the RND devices ? Certainly nothing wrong with that either... accounting for taste blah blah No, no, no.... haha. It has 16 direct outs. So I'd take 16 outs from the MOTU into the MixWizard, boost the level and send all 16 outs from that into the Orbit. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just assuming it would be fairly clean gain that wouldn't do much to the signal at all. Only boosting each line about 4db. Even if it did sound good though it's kind of a PITA solution to bring in an entire mixer just to do a very minor gain boost. |
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Post by Blackdawg on May 28, 2024 16:18:13 GMT -6
Oooooo i got it!
Get 16ch of CAPI ML2's and bam. +12dB in hand. Or you can analog trim it down. Be like a small console! haha
That was my plan with my "CAPI Console" I just stopped building ML2s since you can't freaking buy them these days..And the Sumbuss has been out of stock for years.
Otherwise, no real easy way I suppose.
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Post by jmoose on May 28, 2024 16:19:08 GMT -6
My Ferrari isn't fast enough... maybe if I bolt in a 1.2 liter hyundai engine it'll get me down the street faster?
Nah.
Best to look into more proper solutions... or right. Maybe you just don't dig the RND & actually want something that can fold on itself?
Nothing wrong with that either! Tom Petty had a lot of records mixed on a Soundcraft...
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Post by FM77 on May 28, 2024 17:10:07 GMT -6
Being that the 5057 was essential designed to be driven by your DAW, the new converters add-on is a smart choice IMO. From a pragmatic point of view. Even if you don't dig the outcome with the 5057, you'd have the extra I/Os.
I have used all 32 I/Os for hardware and could use a few more. I have been considering another.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 28, 2024 17:44:36 GMT -6
Being that the 5057 was essential designed to be driven by your DAW, the new converters add-on is a smart choice IMO. From a pragmatic point of view. Even if you don't dig the outcome with the 5057, you'd have the extra I/Os.
I have used all 32 I/Os for hardware and could use a few more. I have been considering another.
I didn't even know Ferrofish had this upgrade option. This is exactly what I need and a reasonable price. What I didn't want to do was swap out over 40 channels if I/O for like Metric Halo or something at like $500 / channel. But an ADAT expander with +24dbu would solve that reasonably. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 30, 2024 10:24:31 GMT -6
Randomly stumbled across this on Reverb. This looks like exactly what I was wondering about. A 16 line mixer in a 1U format. I have a bunch of questions for the seller about the provenance of the unit and its condition etc.... but have any of you ever heard of this? Seems custom built? reverb.com/item/73253891-ssl-line-mixer |
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Post by kbsmoove on May 30, 2024 15:36:34 GMT -6
couple of questions: where do you typically have the output trim set? are you using the -6db output?
looking at the manual, the signal indicator turns red at +24, clipping is at +26 - it doesnt seem to me like getting an additional ~2dB of signal to push the unit into clipping is going to get you where you want to be - or where you think it'll take you.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 30, 2024 15:45:32 GMT -6
couple of questions: where do you typically have the output trim set? are you using the -6db output? looking at the manual, the signal indicator turns red at +24, clipping is at +26 - it doesnt seem to me like getting an additional ~2dB of signal to push the unit into clipping is going to get you where you want to be - or where you think it'll take you. I'm using the -6db output and I usually have the output trim cranked because I want to feed a hot signal to the Silver Bullet which is next in my chain. So I'm struggling to even get to +24 because my D/A maxes out at +20. I can get close if I have enough content on my channels and I'm really pushing all 16 inputs on the Orbit, but before I get any really significant saturation I start clipping my converters. The sound of the Orbit is significantly impactful when you can push it, I've heard it myself at another studio in town that uses it. But he's converting at +24 so it's a lot easier to get there. |
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Post by matt@IAA on May 30, 2024 17:46:24 GMT -6
Couple of options / things to think about.
In the end headroom is limited by your voltage rails. +/-15V rails won’t let you get much higher than 22 dBu without some way to get a step up, like a transformer or a balanced driver stage.
Two as said +20 is already screaming hot, most gear is not designed to work up there, sound-wise.
One thing you might could do to get more tone out of the orbit is adjust the loading. Strap a load resistor from pin 2 to 3, maybe start with 1k and see what you get. There’s more than one way to make that output stage work.
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Post by kbsmoove on May 31, 2024 16:52:10 GMT -6
So I'm struggling to even get to +24 because my D/A maxes out at +20. as others have said, +20 is already hot - i'm not sure if an extra 4dB of headroom will get you where you think it will. is it possibly your converters are set to -10 or something, not letting you hit the summing as hard as you'd like? something seems amiss. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 1, 2024 0:42:23 GMT -6
So I'm struggling to even get to +24 because my D/A maxes out at +20. as others have said, +20 is already hot - i'm not sure if an extra 4dB of headroom will get you where you think it will. is it possibly your converters are set to -10 or something, not letting you hit the summing as hard as you'd like? something seems amiss. Maybe there's something I'm not explaining well. Or something I'm doing wrong. I'm not sending each channel out at that level, I'm saying that that's the maximum level that my D/A is capable of. I haven't looked but probably my hottest bus is the drums that are hitting +18 or so, because I'm not limiting and squashing everything. So then I've got my completed mix and the hottest thing that I have is well below the point of saturating the Orbit. And even though stacking effect on 10 or 12 tracks increases the overall level, it doesn't get it all the way up to the +23 - +25 range without clipping the output on my converter. So am I explaining this incorrectly or am I doing something wrong? |
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 1, 2024 1:52:28 GMT -6
Being that the 5057 was essential designed to be driven by your DAW, the new converters add-on is a smart choice IMO. From a pragmatic point of view. Even if you don't dig the outcome with the 5057, you'd have the extra I/Os.
I have used all 32 I/Os for hardware and could use a few more. I have been considering another.
I just bought a Ferrofish Pulse, but passed on getting the 24db option as my HEDD 192 actually can only manage +18.5dB o/p and I’m gain staging my mixes to that unit - works perfectly fine as my saturation comes from pushing the inputs on my Phoenix Mastering plus vari-mu. Super impressed with the Pulse 16 though …. it’s amazing the quality of conversation on offer for pretty reasonable money. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 1, 2024 2:04:15 GMT -6
I'm really wanting to drive the transformers on the RND 5057 a bit more but it's difficult to do with the 20 dBu that my MOTU AO outputs. In order to get the Orbit to start flashing "red" I basically need to pre-limit my busses before sending them out (to avoid clipping D/A stage) and I don't want to do that. The whole point is to have the transformer saturation tame those peaks, it defeats the purpose if I'm doing it ITB. One thing I'm going to try is to just duplicate my busses. So I'd take eight channels out to the Orbit and then duplicate those same eight channels (the transformers are after summing, so this could work). It feels like a workaround though. But maybe there's something that could boost the signal in the analog domain after it leaves the MOTU but before it hits the Orbit? Just looking for something that is more cost effective than redoing my entire rig with converters that can output at 24dBu. NOTE: Orbit starts saturating more heavily at 22dbu - 24dbu and maxes out at 26dBu if I recall correctly. Stupid question but …. Have you tried the units -6dB output. Perhaps you’ll get the saturation happening at a lower level. The description is a bit ambiguous, I can’t work out if it implies it’s a reduced level for the next item in the chain or if it reduces the overall headroom of the unit and allows saturation to happen at a lower level? |
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Post by Dan on Jun 1, 2024 9:59:47 GMT -6
I’m with jmoose and matt@IAA this later Neve stuff like the 88 whatever and RND is not designed to be dirty. They’re supposed to be on the sounds good side of clean. Sure RND lets you distort the transformers with Silk and makes the tape saturators and color gear but the electronics not designed to be distorted aren’t really meant for it. Summing a small amount of channels together is a pretty trivial task that a ton of things can do cleanly, including your DAW in floating point. Something like a Ferrofish 16 or A&H? No way. Don’t hurt your own sound with cheap circuits usually seen in prosumer gear. I don’t even like the MOTU AD… Multichannel converters without prosumer circuitry in them that can hit +24 dBu? There are a couple like the Lynx Aurora N monitoring converter cards but Lynx doesn’t sound good clipped, Apogee Symphony, and some that get to +22 dBu like the Dangerous Convert and Burls but this stuff isn’t meant to be clipped and the zeitgeist is to go for lower power consumption parts for less distortion and better durability in the real world and these cost more than the jrc4580 and Ne5532 still seen in many older and cheaper circuits. Why not just get something two channel that’s designed to be heavily distorted like the Fatso, Silver Bullet you already own, Drawmer 1976, Overstayer MAS, or any number of distorted stereo eqs and plugins? My view is it better be way more distorted than a MOTU AD to do a loopback. |
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Post by FM77 on Jun 1, 2024 10:59:01 GMT -6
I’m with jmoose and matt@IAA this later Neve stuff like the 88 whatever and RND is not designed to be dirty. They’re supposed to be on the sounds good side of clean. Sure RND lets you distort the transformers with Silk and makes the tape saturators and color gear but the electronics not designed to be distorted aren’t really meant for it. Summing a small amount of channels together is a pretty trivial task that a ton of things can do cleanly, including your DAW in floating point. Something like a Ferrofish 16 or A&H? No way. Don’t hurt your own sound with cheap circuits usually seen in prosumer gear. I don’t even like the MOTU AD… Personally I would gain stage differently than the OP, but that is a different point. Pushing the transformers into saturation (pushing into the red) is exactly what the 5057 was designed to do as a choice, not just with the silk function. With the -6db outputs, you still need an additional +20dBu of gain on tap.
The Ferrofish however, in actual real-world practice, which is what I personally have, is super clean and as clock stable as my Lynx Hilo and a significant step up from my 16 year old Aurora 8. It is a stellar converter at any price. Hurt your sound? There is nothing true about that.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 1, 2024 12:44:09 GMT -6
I've got a bunch of stuff I need to work on today that are sort of low priority personal archival mixes. Good opportunity to experiment. I'm going to start by routing all my signals to 4 stereo busses and then doubling those. If that gets me a hot enough output to drive the Orbit I can see if I even like the saturation that the unit is delivering.
Seems like a smarter first step to try to find DAW routing to see If what I'm going for is even something I would like. It would be pretty silly to invest in the Ferrofish or likewise only to find out "oops, I don't even like this sound."
I've heard the Orbit driven in other studios and liked it. But my chain is different. Maybe I'm already getting enough from the SB and the Tegeler Creme and pushing the Orbit will take things too far.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,086 
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Post by ericn on Jun 1, 2024 15:30:42 GMT -6
This is part of why Summing boxes have never really excited me, I love my RADAR as primarily conversion, but pushing up the output gain to drive a summing box wasn’t what the converter was designed to do, a summing mixer with some controllable gain at least gives a more console like experience or just go with a nice console.
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Post by christopher on Jun 1, 2024 23:27:38 GMT -6
First find out if theres a real benefit.
The clipping in the red should mangle some peaks, and allow a hotter RMS print, possibly a wider stereo image as each LR leg gets mangled in unique ways, causing some cool dancing to the stereo image. If you hit it soft, it won’t mangle anything and no fuzzy smear.
As others said, it may not even happen on this box.
If you have a stereo pair of any hardware pre/comp/eq with pre-gain or makeup gain, patch it between DAC and RND, try playing a clean stereo track through and run it heavy. Is it usable fuzz, or total garbage?
Also run reference tracks through.. something already mastered at -6 LUFS so you can go out clean and see what happens when RMS is hot
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 2, 2024 0:17:35 GMT -6
Welp... I took the tracks I was spreading among 8 stereo pairs and condensing them to 4 stereo pairs. Then I doubled those. And yeah, kissing the red on the Orbit and it sounds really good. Exactly like what I remember from when I heard the unit at my buddy's studio.
Ok, so that's kinda of annoying actually. I was sorta hoping it wouldn't make a difference or it would suck. The good news is, this technique will work. Now the question is, is there any benefit to going back to spreading the mix across 8 stereo tracks and running it through something like the Ferrofish? My guess is no.
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