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Post by nick8801 on May 22, 2024 7:59:03 GMT -6
Probably been discussed here before but....it seems like every time I get music to work on that's not very good, I end up spending more time and energy on it than if it was produced and performed really well. I'm mixing some rock demo's for a friend and it's fine. Vocals are a little rough, band is ok. Not great, but decent. It was all recorded in little home studios on sub-par equipment/rooms etc. I balance the whole thing out, give it a little EQ and compression to tie it all together, some verbs for space etc, but it still sounds like poop to me. I left the vocal kind of dry because that just sounded right to me in the context, but they want echo and reverb on the voice. I dunno. I just feel like it's not going to help lol. I guess the answer is, just give them what they want and move on? Just wondering how anyone else here deals with this kind of thing. I've worked on great records before that almost didn't need anything done to the music. No matter what I did to it, it was great. This is not going to be one of those situations. So my brain won't let it go lol. Like, I know I can't remake the music for them, but I think that's what I start trying to accomplish when I work on it!
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Post by Tbone81 on May 22, 2024 8:11:28 GMT -6
Sample replacing drums can help. And re-amping guitars too. Even if you don’t have DI’s you can try running the guitar tracks through another amp (or sim) for better tone.
Also, sometimes you need to aim for vibe over perfection…cause that’s all you’re really going to get.
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Post by nick8801 on May 22, 2024 10:42:52 GMT -6
Sample replacing drums can help. And re-amping guitars too. Even if you don’t have DI’s you can try running the guitar tracks through another amp (or sim) for better tone. Also, sometimes you need to aim for vibe over perfection…cause that’s all you’re really going to get. Good ideas, but probably way too much work for what they are paying me! |
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Post by nick8801 on May 22, 2024 10:45:13 GMT -6
Drums are actually the best part! They sound fine. I think vibe over perfection for sure. Just got off the phone with the guitarist. They all went direct and used Logic amp sims so that's part of the issue.
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Post by nick8801 on May 22, 2024 10:46:12 GMT -6
They also sent me tracks that had panning and fx baked in so I asked for raw centered tracks so I can do all that stuff.
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Post by Blackdawg on May 22, 2024 11:00:59 GMT -6
And here lies the true secret to a great mix.
Great production.
So overlooked. But Youtube university and marketing departments make it all seem like the Mix is where you do the heavy lifting. It's not. Its production. The better the production, the better the mix(and as you point out, much easier).
Anyways, yeah putting lipstick on a pig is never easy. But is a skill. Vibe over perfection is important but also finding the good stuff that is there and making that a big part of the sound and tucking in if possible the not so good.
But a bad performance is a bad performance. You can only put so much makeup on a turd. So some level of acceptance is needed from both you and the artist. Hopefully they aren't expecting a perfect awesome mix.
Hopefully you get raw tracks because that obviously locks you in and restricts you a lot.
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Post by nick8801 on May 22, 2024 12:20:56 GMT -6
100% on the production. I mixed a song for this Canadian artist a month or so ago. I pulled up the tracks and was like, umm this is awesome...what do you want me to do??
On another note, I kind of miss raw music. Some Joe Jackson came on the radio yesterday while I was driving. It was just music. No fancy production stuff. No added mix tricks. Just good solid music. The mix was just balanced and great. Going back to that Canandian artist, her song was so good. I just made it pop a little bit. When I sent her the mix she was like, when do we get to all the reverbs and delays? I wanted to tell her, you don't need all that, but so many artists get wrapped up in the latest "sound" or whatever. I grew up past the era where a band or artist would make a song, and then, that was it. But I kind of wish there was more of that thing around. Or, if you want some super echoey, verby mix, then maybe do that kind of thing with production? I don't mind taking it someplace for you, but sometimes it feels like it's not just mixing, but the back end of the production. I'm not a good mind reader yet so, sometimes I miss the mark!
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Post by Blackdawg on May 22, 2024 14:43:44 GMT -6
Agreed.
Which i guess boils down to what makes a good production. A good song, good musician, and clear vision.
I know what you mean though.
But to avoid doing work, sending it, then getting that kind of feedback. I'd first get the tracks. Listen to it. Then try and get on the phone/zoom/something with the artist to understand their vision and expectations. Saves a lot of hassle and back and forth in the long run.
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Post by drbill on May 22, 2024 15:15:55 GMT -6
Avoid them if at all possible. That is another whole discussion on how to pull that off, but yeah, avoid doing it. Cause turds always smell.....
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Post by ragan on May 22, 2024 15:31:19 GMT -6
I would re-track all the parts myself and try to convince them it was just studio magic.
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Post by nick8801 on May 22, 2024 15:48:38 GMT -6
I would re-track all the parts myself and try to convince them it was just studio magic. I wish I had that kind of time! |
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Post by nick8801 on May 22, 2024 15:55:47 GMT -6
Agreed. Which i guess boils down to what makes a good production. A good song, good musician, and clear vision. I know what you mean though. But to avoid doing work, sending it, then getting that kind of feedback. I'd first get the tracks. Listen to it. Then try and get on the phone/zoom/something with the artist to understand their vision and expectations. Saves a lot of hassle and back and forth in the long run. Yeah I’m starting to learn this. As much communication as possible up front. No need to jump right in until everyone is clear on the objective and expectations. Also, as I write I’m getting texts from the guitar player about extra parts he did that weren’t sent in the original session lol. I’ve been slowing picking up more studio work I can do at home. It’s a whole other kind of thing. I like the challenge, but I am definitely still learning how to navigate doing this as a business. |
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Post by drbill on May 22, 2024 15:56:27 GMT -6
Fooling clients is never a good game plan. Tell them you are super busy, and because of that your wait times have grown exponentially and your rates have gone up. Let them know their project is cool, but a very back burner project for you. They of course will not want to wait that long.
If that doesn't work, ask to hear the project. Then tell them their project is cool, but you're not sure what you personally can bring to the project to make it better - and that they would almost certainly be better served by finding someone else.
Both of those things are honest. Both of them will discourage most folks. For the ones that won't move on - tell them the truth. That you are no longer taking on projects that will require too much re-working of parts, tuning of vocals, extra production on top of their already finished tracks, etc..
If they still do not want to move on, start charging them top dollar to rebuild their tracks in a suitable fashion. Give them an up-front quote, and make sure you are hourly, and that the quote is only an ESTIMATE - that studio production almost always goes longer and costs more. Then, they will almost surely move on. If they don't - you just found a gold mine.... Milk it for everything it's worth.
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Post by Tbone81 on May 22, 2024 17:05:00 GMT -6
I would re-track all the parts myself and try to convince them it was just studio magic. I had a studio partner I produced a lot of tracks with. He was a great musician but not that skilled of a guitar player. Didn’t stop him from wanting to play every solo, every lead, every guitar riff etc lol. It got to the point where I’d tell him the take was great and then re-record the part myself. I just didn’t have the patience to spend 2 hours tracking a guitar solo that I could play in like two takes. He would always comment on how good I made his guitar sound…his ego would never be able to take it if I told him I replaced his tracks lol. |
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Post by nick8801 on May 22, 2024 18:27:55 GMT -6
Fooling clients is never a good game plan. Tell them you are super busy, and because of that your wait times have grown exponentially and your rates have gone up. Let them know their project is cool, but a very back burner project for you. They of course will not want to wait that long. If that doesn't work, ask to hear the project. Then tell them their project is cool, but you're not sure what you personally can bring to the project to make it better - and that they would almost certainly be better served by finding someone else. Both of those things are honest. Both of them will discourage most folks. For the ones that won't move on - tell them the truth. That you are no longer taking on projects that will require too much re-working of parts, tuning of vocals, extra production on top of their already finished tracks, etc.. If they still do not want to move on, start charging them top dollar to rebuild their tracks in a suitable fashion. Give them an up-front quote, and make sure you are hourly, and that the quote is only an ESTIMATE - that studio production almost always goes longer and costs more. Then, they will almost surely move on. If they don't - you just found a gold mine.... Milk it for everything it's worth. That is excellent advice. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 23, 2024 9:45:16 GMT -6
I was coming to type my horror story... I've had an ornery client for like 3-4 years now. He's extremely wealthy and you can tell he's used to being either feared or catered to...I've done two vanity EPs for him. It's Stones/Floyd/Seger type stuff which is more fun than usual, but the guy is just NEVER FUCKING SATISFIED. The first two EPs, I tracked his vocals - so at least they weren't a recording nightmare...but he wanted to get his own mic and interface...so one Scarlett and Warm 67 later, I'm now left with the cleanup. So this third project started in May of 2022. 12 songs, paid half up front which covered the costs of tracking and a little more for my time and then I would get my other half upon delivery. Then the waiting started. I wasn't too upset because this guy was a major pain in the ass at every turn (he even questioned if I was doing/saying enough as a producer when he attended the first session. I should've just quit then. But that was in 2021 lol.) Now at the start of this year, he's been wanting to get back and finish the project (last 6). My dumbass went along with it. So he's been sending me fuuuucked up Studio One sessions because he doesn't know how to bounce a wav file...and I've been comping shit and cleaning up complete messes. Waaaaaay more work than he's paid for. The vocals are literally some of the worst I've ever gotten. And I don't say that to be mean...but the guy is complaining about his vocals being too "computery" and it's because: 1) you can't sing anywhere near in tune 2) you're a screamer so it makes melodyne track the same note in different octaves lots of times 3) You're using a $100 interface with a Chinese mic 4) On one song you wanted to raise the track up a whole step (which I did) but sang the vocals in the old key which I then had to pitch up and tune and manipulate. 5) You're listening to the mix on a fucking laptop. I actually yelled at him last night because it's just gotten ridiculous. I said "We can either mix this using my $20k chain or your fucking laptop." But hey - I'll do it however you want. On top of ALL that...I get off the phone with the guy last night, dreading thinking about working on this shit...and I'm just browsing on Soundbetter...and... Dude posted a job basically saying he was looking for remixing because he wasn't happy with his current producer and mixer. He said something like, "I'm satisfied with the music part - it's the vocals are too blah blah..." I was flabbergasted. I've been going BEYOND to work with this nut who has NO BUSINESS telling anyone how to music... So today, I sent him all the sessions (obviously without my PTX and backups) and told him "I saw your job posting on Soundbetter and you're right - I can't give you what you want. Good Luck." Here's the real problem with clients like these - at least for me and my mental health...This guy has me COMPLETELY second guessing myself. He absolutely doesn't know what he's talking about, but that doesn't matter. When someone says something that I'm already paranoid about - like things being too bright or vocals not sounding good (FFS I'm a singer) yeah - it makes me really assess if they have a point or not. It's good to take stock of yourself every once in a while. But I keep letting people that don't know what they're doing make me feel this way. I don't walk up to svart and suggest how he use his flux capacitor...I don't discuss the energy sector (this guy's expertise) with and then criticize his moves. I guess I always struggle with imposter syndrome in the back of my mind. What if he's right? What if I suck? What if everyone knows that sounds like shit but me? lol BUT - that's irrational...and I've got to stop that crap. Sometimes I think the music industry is a particularly cruel. Sure, you get crappy clients in every job, but no one tells the CPA he doesn't know what he's doing. I don't tell my mechanic he "shoulda fixed it like this." You may ask me why I don't just make it sound like he wants? Because he ultimately has no idea...he can't even describe what he's hating half the time. It's just a nightmare and not worth the money. |
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Post by sean on May 23, 2024 12:14:21 GMT -6
I think it’s important to ask yourself if the stress/anxiety/depression a project is going to cause you worth the reward?
Just move on. If it’s not good no one is going to hear it anyway.
I was in a situation recently where I mixing a band that was pretty rough, there was some intonation issues that honestly made me physically ill listening to it. It was a similar thing where no matter what I did I couldn’t get happy with it. After killing myself over the first couple songs, I mixed the other 12 in a couple days and honestly they sounded better than the ones I spent tons of time on. Sometimes doing less is best…it just is what it is…get it balanced and move on. Life’s too short to agonize over things like that.
A long time ago someone told me the way a record sounds has very little to do with whether it’s successful or not. I know that’s sounds absurd but I have to remind myself of that sometimes…you can’t make something poorly performed or tracked sound more than a little better than it came to you, but if it’s a good song people will still like it. I mean, I love Bee Thousand by Guided By Voice and it’s the worst sounding, most out of tune record ever. But the songs are good (to me, anyway)
And, when it’s a vanity/passion project, just turn the vocals up louder than you want to, no matter how bad or out of tune they are, because that’s what the person paying for it wants to hear. Don’t worry about other people hearing it and judging you, because the only people who are going to hear those sort of projects also know the singer isn’t any good and that’s not your fault. Honestly they’ll probably be blown away you made it sound palatable
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Post by Tbone81 on May 23, 2024 12:46:30 GMT -6
I think it’s important to ask yourself if the stress/anxiety/depression a project is going to cause you worth the reward? Just move on. If it’s not good no one is going to hear it anyway. I was in a situation recently where I mixing a band that was pretty rough, there was some intonation issues that honestly made me physically ill listening to it. It was a similar thing where no matter what I did I couldn’t get happy with it. After killing myself over the first couple songs, I mixed the other 12 in a couple days and honestly they sounded better than the ones I spent tons of time on. Sometimes doing less is best…it just is what it is…get it balanced and move on. Life’s too short to agonize over things like that. A long time ago someone told me the way a record sounds has very little to do with whether it’s successful or not. I know that’s sounds absurd but I have to remind myself of that sometimes…you can’t make something poorly performed or tracked sound more than a little better than it came to you, but if it’s a good song people will still like it. I mean, I love Bee Thousand by Guided By Voice and it’s the worst sounding, most out of tune record ever. But the songs are good (to me, anyway) And, when it’s a vanity/passion project, just turn the vocals up louder than you want to, no matter how bad or out of tune they are, because that’s what the person paying for it wants to hear. Don’t worry about other people hearing it and judging you, because the only people who are going to hear those sort of projects also know the singer isn’t any good and that’s not your fault. Honestly they’ll probably be blown away you made it sound palatable Your post is a good reminder they sometimes polishing a turd means doing less, not more. Often the more you perfect things (tuning vocals, adjusting timing, sample replacing etc) the more the other “bad” elements poke out. But when everything is kinda crappy there’s a weird cohesiveness to it that actually hides the mistakes more than when you fix everything. |
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Post by svart on May 23, 2024 12:52:26 GMT -6
I was coming to type my horror story... I've had an ornery client for like 3-4 years now. He's extremely wealthy and you can tell he's used to being either feared or catered to...I've done two vanity EPs for him. It's Stones/Floyd/Seger type stuff which is more fun than usual, but the guy is just NEVER FUCKING SATISFIED. The first two EPs, I tracked his vocals - so at least they weren't a recording nightmare...but he wanted to get his own mic and interface...so one Scarlett and Warm 67 later, I'm now left with the cleanup. So this third project started in May of 2022. 12 songs, paid half up front which covered the costs of tracking and a little more for my time and then I would get my other half upon delivery. Then the waiting started. I wasn't too upset because this guy was a major pain in the ass at every turn (he even questioned if I was doing/saying enough as a producer when he attended the first session. I should've just quit then. But that was in 2021 lol.) Now at the start of this year, he's been wanting to get back and finish the project (last 6). My dumbass went along with it. So he's been sending me fuuuucked up Studio One sessions because he doesn't know how to bounce a wav file...and I've been comping shit and cleaning up complete messes. Waaaaaay more work than he's paid for. The vocals are literally some of the worst I've ever gotten. And I don't say that to be mean...but the guy is complaining about his vocals being too "computery" and it's because: 1) you can't sing anywhere near in tune 2) you're a screamer so it makes melodyne track the same note in different octaves lots of times 3) You're using a $100 interface with a Chinese mic 4) On one song you wanted to raise the track up a whole step (which I did) but sang the vocals in the old key which I then had to pitch up and tune and manipulate. 5) You're listening to the mix on a fucking laptop. I actually yelled at him last night because it's just gotten ridiculous. I said "We can either mix this using my $20k chain or your fucking laptop." But hey - I'll do it however you want. On top of ALL that...I get off the phone with the guy last night, dreading thinking about working on this shit...and I'm just browsing on Soundbetter...and... Dude posted a job basically saying he was looking for remixing because he wasn't happy with his current producer and mixer. He said something like, "I'm satisfied with the music part - it's the vocals are too blah blah..." I was flabbergasted. I've been going BEYOND to work with this nut who has NO BUSINESS telling anyone how to music... So today, I sent him all the sessions (obviously without my PTX and backups) and told him "I saw your job posting on Soundbetter and you're right - I can't give you what you want. Good Luck." Here's the real problem with clients like these - at least for me and my mental health...This guy has me COMPLETELY second guessing myself. He absolutely doesn't know what he's talking about, but that doesn't matter. When someone says something that I'm already paranoid about - like things being too bright or vocals not sounding good (FFS I'm a singer) yeah - it makes me really assess if they have a point or not. It's good to take stock of yourself every once in a while. But I keep letting people that don't know what they're doing make me feel this way. I don't walk up to svart and suggest how he use his flux capacitor...I don't discuss the energy sector (this guy's expertise) with and then criticize his moves. I guess I always struggle with imposter syndrome in the back of my mind. What if he's right? What if I suck? What if everyone knows that sounds like shit but me? lol BUT - that's irrational...and I've got to stop that crap. Sometimes I think the music industry is a particularly cruel. Sure, you get crappy clients in every job, but no one tells the CPA he doesn't know what he's doing. I don't tell my mechanic he "shoulda fixed it like this." You may ask me why I don't just make it sound like he wants? Because he ultimately has no idea...he can't even describe what he's hating half the time. It's just a nightmare and not worth the money. I'll reply to you first before reading the rest of the thread.. Which might be the wrong way to do this, but ok.. Dealing with "creatives" means you're dealing with their egos plain and simple. We live in a land of confusion these days. Likes and listens are the same thing as having friends and self-worth to many. Folks like this will always equate the end product with their self-image. A poor product means a poor reflection on their person. That's both why they are hypercritical AND willfully ignorant of what it takes to actually produce songs, as well as their eagerness to blame failures on someone else. It'll never be their fault and the more you explain why it is, the more they see it as excuses. It's for the best to cut people like this loose, but the truth is that they'll just double down on their disdain for producers and their penchant to blame them. But yeah, second-guessing is a burden from our own egos too. We strive to be good at what we do and it hurts when people blame us for stuff we know is out of our control. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 23, 2024 13:06:27 GMT -6
I think it’s important to ask yourself if the stress/anxiety/depression a project is going to cause you worth the reward? Just move on. If it’s not good no one is going to hear it anyway. I was in a situation recently where I mixing a band that was pretty rough, there was some intonation issues that honestly made me physically ill listening to it. It was a similar thing where no matter what I did I couldn’t get happy with it. After killing myself over the first couple songs, I mixed the other 12 in a couple days and honestly they sounded better than the ones I spent tons of time on. Sometimes doing less is best…it just is what it is…get it balanced and move on. Life’s too short to agonize over things like that. A long time ago someone told me the way a record sounds has very little to do with whether it’s successful or not. I know that’s sounds absurd but I have to remind myself of that sometimes…you can’t make something poorly performed or tracked sound more than a little better than it came to you, but if it’s a good song people will still like it. I mean, I love Bee Thousand by Guided By Voice and it’s the worst sounding, most out of tune record ever. But the songs are good (to me, anyway) And, when it’s a vanity/passion project, just turn the vocals up louder than you want to, no matter how bad or out of tune they are, because that’s what the person paying for it wants to hear. Don’t worry about other people hearing it and judging you, because the only people who are going to hear those sort of projects also know the singer isn’t any good and that’s not your fault. Honestly they’ll probably be blown away you made it sound palatable Yeah I guarantee if you heard the original vocal it would explain everything...but I don't want to doxx anyone. One issue is that he sang the first two records with me...then he asked for mic suggestions and he gave me a budget. Like a dumbass, I told him to get a Warm 67...which was a huge mistake. I got one after and holy crap if you remove any bottom end on that mic, it's a complete razor blade factory on the top. On top of that, the room ambiance is so loud I'm having to use SPL Deverb which does add weird artifacts occasionally. Then tuning anyone in Melodyne where it's really having to work - major artifacts. Not only that - I had to raise the vocal a full step and then tune. All add weirdness. Oh - but the best part is he's judging all of this by LISTENING ON HIS LAPTOP. |
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Post by svart on May 23, 2024 13:07:07 GMT -6
Probably been discussed here before but....it seems like every time I get music to work on that's not very good, I end up spending more time and energy on it than if it was produced and performed really well. I'm mixing some rock demo's for a friend and it's fine. Vocals are a little rough, band is ok. Not great, but decent. It was all recorded in little home studios on sub-par equipment/rooms etc. I balance the whole thing out, give it a little EQ and compression to tie it all together, some verbs for space etc, but it still sounds like poop to me. I left the vocal kind of dry because that just sounded right to me in the context, but they want echo and reverb on the voice. I dunno. I just feel like it's not going to help lol. I guess the answer is, just give them what they want and move on? Just wondering how anyone else here deals with this kind of thing. I've worked on great records before that almost didn't need anything done to the music. No matter what I did to it, it was great. This is not going to be one of those situations. So my brain won't let it go lol. Like, I know I can't remake the music for them, but I think that's what I start trying to accomplish when I work on it! I usually do it in steps. Step 1 is to edit the daylights out of the tracks so that there isn't a single hint of bleed or stray notes or anything. You'd be amazed at how much this can make things sound better. If it isn't a wanted part of the audio, cut it out. Step 2 will be to line up items to the grid more tightly. I find that a lot of "bad" sounding production actually comes down to tightness. If a guitar and bass don't hit at the same time it sounds very off, or even bass and kick or whatever. Cut the vocals between phrases and line them up. Cut the guitars and bass up as much as you can and line it all up. I've made demos sound almost sound like authentically recorded tracks like this. Step 3 is normalize everything to 0 peak. The cut up tracks will now be a lot more even across the song without resorting to compression on everything. You can go back and automate more easily if needed. Step 4 is start to LPF/HPF everything so that nothing but desired audio remains. If it's just rumble and hiss, cut it off. Step 5 is to figure out what the standout instruments need to be. Vocals will always be priority for me. Then start making things fit around them with level and EQ. At this point it starts becoming more stylistic choices. Heavy compression to get the vocals to sit flat and intelligible throughout the song or medium-fast attacks on the drums to get peaks to stand out a little, or the 3dB or so GR on the master bus compressor to get a little pump and gel happening.. But things like vocals.. add your reverb and delay but duck them with a compressor sidechained to the vocal track so that whenever there's actual singing it doesn't interfere. There's lots of tricks like this that can add production quality that overrides poor production. Duck the bass with the kick drum. Duck the guitars with the vocals but use EQ in the sidechain so it's only a small band of midrange so the guitars don't sound ducked but still get out of the vocal's way. I dunno.. I guess it matters what the end-goal is. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 23, 2024 13:11:14 GMT -6
I was coming to type my horror story... I've had an ornery client for like 3-4 years now. He's extremely wealthy and you can tell he's used to being either feared or catered to...I've done two vanity EPs for him. It's Stones/Floyd/Seger type stuff which is more fun than usual, but the guy is just NEVER FUCKING SATISFIED. The first two EPs, I tracked his vocals - so at least they weren't a recording nightmare...but he wanted to get his own mic and interface...so one Scarlett and Warm 67 later, I'm now left with the cleanup. So this third project started in May of 2022. 12 songs, paid half up front which covered the costs of tracking and a little more for my time and then I would get my other half upon delivery. Then the waiting started. I wasn't too upset because this guy was a major pain in the ass at every turn (he even questioned if I was doing/saying enough as a producer when he attended the first session. I should've just quit then. But that was in 2021 lol.) Now at the start of this year, he's been wanting to get back and finish the project (last 6). My dumbass went along with it. So he's been sending me fuuuucked up Studio One sessions because he doesn't know how to bounce a wav file...and I've been comping shit and cleaning up complete messes. Waaaaaay more work than he's paid for. The vocals are literally some of the worst I've ever gotten. And I don't say that to be mean...but the guy is complaining about his vocals being too "computery" and it's because: 1) you can't sing anywhere near in tune 2) you're a screamer so it makes melodyne track the same note in different octaves lots of times 3) You're using a $100 interface with a Chinese mic 4) On one song you wanted to raise the track up a whole step (which I did) but sang the vocals in the old key which I then had to pitch up and tune and manipulate. 5) You're listening to the mix on a fucking laptop. I actually yelled at him last night because it's just gotten ridiculous. I said "We can either mix this using my $20k chain or your fucking laptop." But hey - I'll do it however you want. On top of ALL that...I get off the phone with the guy last night, dreading thinking about working on this shit...and I'm just browsing on Soundbetter...and... Dude posted a job basically saying he was looking for remixing because he wasn't happy with his current producer and mixer. He said something like, "I'm satisfied with the music part - it's the vocals are too blah blah..." I was flabbergasted. I've been going BEYOND to work with this nut who has NO BUSINESS telling anyone how to music... So today, I sent him all the sessions (obviously without my PTX and backups) and told him "I saw your job posting on Soundbetter and you're right - I can't give you what you want. Good Luck." Here's the real problem with clients like these - at least for me and my mental health...This guy has me COMPLETELY second guessing myself. He absolutely doesn't know what he's talking about, but that doesn't matter. When someone says something that I'm already paranoid about - like things being too bright or vocals not sounding good (FFS I'm a singer) yeah - it makes me really assess if they have a point or not. It's good to take stock of yourself every once in a while. But I keep letting people that don't know what they're doing make me feel this way. I don't walk up to svart and suggest how he use his flux capacitor...I don't discuss the energy sector (this guy's expertise) with and then criticize his moves. I guess I always struggle with imposter syndrome in the back of my mind. What if he's right? What if I suck? What if everyone knows that sounds like shit but me? lol BUT - that's irrational...and I've got to stop that crap. Sometimes I think the music industry is a particularly cruel. Sure, you get crappy clients in every job, but no one tells the CPA he doesn't know what he's doing. I don't tell my mechanic he "shoulda fixed it like this." You may ask me why I don't just make it sound like he wants? Because he ultimately has no idea...he can't even describe what he's hating half the time. It's just a nightmare and not worth the money. I'll reply to you first before reading the rest of the thread.. Which might be the wrong way to do this, but ok.. Dealing with "creatives" means you're dealing with their egos plain and simple. We live in a land of confusion these days. Likes and listens are the same thing as having friends and self-worth to many. Folks like this will always equate the end product with their self-image. A poor product means a poor reflection on their person. That's both why they are hypercritical AND willfully ignorant of what it takes to actually produce songs, as well as their eagerness to blame failures on someone else. It'll never be their fault and the more you explain why it is, the more they see it as excuses. It's for the best to cut people like this loose, but the truth is that they'll just double down on their disdain for producers and their penchant to blame them. But yeah, second-guessing is a burden from our own egos too. We strive to be good at what we do and it hurts when people blame us for stuff we know is out of our control. Yeah you're right. It's always funny to me when you send a first mix to someone like this and they FREAK THE FUCK OUT. OMG, the bass needs to come up! The horror! It's like it's personal to them. And hey - I don't respond well to the whip. I just don't. After I've agonized over this for a couple days and your first words are "The vocals sound like shit." Yeah, no shit you moron. I'm letting the fear of not getting more work cloud my judgement - otherwise I would have been out of this a long time ago. The guy has 10 more songs...and I need to feed my family...but I don't know if I can mentally handle more of this shit. |
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Post by nick8801 on May 23, 2024 13:17:06 GMT -6
This is all great stuff and making me feel a little better. Johnkenn is so right. It all really plays into my imposter syndrome. I put on the mix I did for these guys in my car yesterday and got super depressed! It was just so...blah. I like the idea of just banging this out quickly. Might just run the session through one of my transformer boxes to get some harmonics happening, because everything just sounds so "grey" to. I'll push the levels so it's nice and loud and call it a day. Pretty sure they will dig it.
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Post by nick8801 on May 23, 2024 13:20:24 GMT -6
Probably been discussed here before but....it seems like every time I get music to work on that's not very good, I end up spending more time and energy on it than if it was produced and performed really well. I'm mixing some rock demo's for a friend and it's fine. Vocals are a little rough, band is ok. Not great, but decent. It was all recorded in little home studios on sub-par equipment/rooms etc. I balance the whole thing out, give it a little EQ and compression to tie it all together, some verbs for space etc, but it still sounds like poop to me. I left the vocal kind of dry because that just sounded right to me in the context, but they want echo and reverb on the voice. I dunno. I just feel like it's not going to help lol. I guess the answer is, just give them what they want and move on? Just wondering how anyone else here deals with this kind of thing. I've worked on great records before that almost didn't need anything done to the music. No matter what I did to it, it was great. This is not going to be one of those situations. So my brain won't let it go lol. Like, I know I can't remake the music for them, but I think that's what I start trying to accomplish when I work on it! I usually do it in steps. Step 1 is to edit the daylights out of the tracks so that there isn't a single hint of bleed or stray notes or anything. You'd be amazed at how much this can make things sound better. If it isn't a wanted part of the audio, cut it out. Step 2 will be to line up items to the grid more tightly. I find that a lot of "bad" sounding production actually comes down to tightness. If a guitar and bass don't hit at the same time it sounds very off, or even bass and kick or whatever. Cut the vocals between phrases and line them up. Cut the guitars and bass up as much as you can and line it all up. I've made demos sound almost sound like authentically recorded tracks like this. Step 3 is normalize everything to 0 peak. The cut up tracks will now be a lot more even across the song without resorting to compression on everything. You can go back and automate more easily if needed. Step 4 is start to LPF/HPF everything so that nothing but desired audio remains. If it's just rumble and hiss, cut it off. Step 5 is to figure out what the standout instruments need to be. Vocals will always be priority for me. Then start making things fit around them with level and EQ. At this point it starts becoming more stylistic choices. Heavy compression to get the vocals to sit flat and intelligible throughout the song or medium-fast attacks on the drums to get peaks to stand out a little, or the 3dB or so GR on the master bus compressor to get a little pump and gel happening.. But things like vocals.. add your reverb and delay but duck them with a compressor sidechained to the vocal track so that whenever there's actual singing it doesn't interfere. There's lots of tricks like this that can add production quality that overrides poor production. Duck the bass with the kick drum. Duck the guitars with the vocals but use EQ in the sidechain so it's only a small band of midrange so the guitars don't sound ducked but still get out of the vocal's way. I dunno.. I guess it matters what the end-goal is. I like this approach. Especially all the ducking/sidechaining ideas. It might make this stuff move and gel a little more! |
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Post by svart on May 23, 2024 13:20:41 GMT -6
I'll reply to you first before reading the rest of the thread.. Which might be the wrong way to do this, but ok.. Dealing with "creatives" means you're dealing with their egos plain and simple. We live in a land of confusion these days. Likes and listens are the same thing as having friends and self-worth to many. Folks like this will always equate the end product with their self-image. A poor product means a poor reflection on their person. That's both why they are hypercritical AND willfully ignorant of what it takes to actually produce songs, as well as their eagerness to blame failures on someone else. It'll never be their fault and the more you explain why it is, the more they see it as excuses. It's for the best to cut people like this loose, but the truth is that they'll just double down on their disdain for producers and their penchant to blame them. But yeah, second-guessing is a burden from our own egos too. We strive to be good at what we do and it hurts when people blame us for stuff we know is out of our control. Yeah you're right. It's always funny to me when you send a first mix to someone like this and they FREAK THE FUCK OUT. OMG, the bass needs to come up! The horror! It's like it's personal to them. And hey - I don't respond well to the whip. I just don't. After I've agonized over this for a couple days and your first words are "The vocals sound like shit." Yeah, no shit you moron. I'm letting the fear of not getting more work cloud my judgement - otherwise I would have been out of this a long time ago. The guy has 10 more songs...and I need to feed my family...but I don't know if I can mentally handle more of this shit. The other part is that their ego clouds their understanding of the arrangement. You're working your JOB. For them it's their LIFE. They will never respect what you do as much as they demand you respect their "work". I've had people insinuate that I don't do anything but hit the space bar to start and stop recording. They have no idea that I have decades of knowledge built into that plugin template that is currently making them sound more polished than they actually do. They also don't see me editing on the fly while they're texting on their phones or any number of other things I'm doing to make it better by the minute. They don't see the hours I spend heavily editing and EQing and auditioning effects and whatever else I do after they left. They just see $$$ on a piece of paper or in an email and no matter what they always have some dude who can do it cheaper. |
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