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Post by Shadowk on Apr 21, 2024 19:05:59 GMT -6
Headphones aren't doing it when I'm singing, even with an ear off approach they really seem to throw me off. I know some use monitors and in terms of correct singing it's great but I've had limited success thus far from a production side, I'm either getting feedback or too much signal in the track which is causing issues when mixing. Also I work best with LDC's or SDC's, that being said the Beyer M88, SM58 or M160 aren't really fairing any better than some of my SDC's, I just got away with using an M88 which is great on bass but doesn't suit my voice all that well. Polar patterns don't seem to matter and I'm obviously pointing the mic away from my monitors about 4M away and keeping the Dyn's as quiet as possible.
I think a U89 would have been perfect for this as it's great at close mic'ing with great off axis rejections, I need to try something like a reflection filter as well probably? Although again the U89 is better at this as they don't get as phasey when using a filter. Any other tips, tricks, mic's, suggestions? I must say though everything else is going well so that's cool.
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 21, 2024 23:57:15 GMT -6
Rage against the machine's producer had Zach sing with the monitors on full blast with an SM58 to overdub a few tracks after he blew his voice during the live tracking.
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 22, 2024 0:50:02 GMT -6
Headphones aren't doing it when I'm singing, even with an ear off approach they really seem to throw me off. I know some use monitors and in terms of correct singing it's great but I've had limited success thus far from a production side, I'm either getting feedback or too much signal in the track which is causing issues when mixing. Also I work best with LDC's or SDC's, that being said the Beyer M88, SM58 or M160 aren't really fairing any better than some of my SDC's, I just got away with using an M88 which is great on bass but doesn't suit my voice all that well. Polar patterns don't seem to matter and I'm obviously pointing the mic away from my monitors about 4M away and keeping the Dyn's as quiet as possible.
I think a U89 would have been perfect for this as it's great at close mic'ing with great off axis rejections, I need to try something like a reflection filter as well probably? Although again the U89 is better at this as they don't get as phasey when using a filter. Any other tips, tricks, mic's, suggestions? I must say though everything else is going well so that's cool.
How do they throw you off? Pitch, timing or just feel? Have you tried all the reversing phase of your monitors tricks? Then there's the other trick of being between monitors and then another pass without singing and phase reverse that signal against the sung pass. All these techniques make for a DAW session that looks like Tetris when you come to editing. The best solution, imho, is to practice singing with headphones, I crack one ear of ever so slightly just to get a touch of acoustic sound blended in. The monitor mix is critical too - plenty of bass for pitch - hardly any cymbals (that wipes out the upper bandwidth for your ears) no fancy stuff in the mix just mainly kick, snare, bass and a solid guide for the harmony. It will result in tight pitch, great timing and for feel I'm a bog fan of the right lighting :-) Live with my band, I work on IEM's and it makes for very tight pitch and timing live, so usually headphones have a positive effect on pitch and timing though I do get that it makes the feel aspect of performance a challenge. I know Phil Collins says on his solo records he records without headphones, same as Gabriel and they use LDC's. I bet they just tolerate a degree of bleed and that's that - grab the performance and that rules that day. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 22, 2024 4:31:01 GMT -6
“grab the performance and that rules that day” ^^This^^ How did the mole on Elizabeth Taylor’s face feel about discussions of beauty ?  |
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 22, 2024 4:55:18 GMT -6
How do they throw you off? Pitch, timing or just feel? Have you tried all the reversing phase of your monitors tricks? Then there's the other trick of being between monitors and then another pass without singing and phase reverse that signal against the sung pass. All these techniques make for a DAW session that looks like Tetris when you come to editing. I know Phil Collins says on his solo records he records without headphones, same as Gabriel and they use LDC's. I bet they just tolerate a degree of bleed and that's that - grab the performance and that rules that day. Both pitch and delivery, I've not tried reversing the phase yet but it's pretty simple to do on the SSL mixer (just a button press) so it shouldn't be an issue.
Yeah, I mean with a bit of trial and error I managed to get it "inline" without too many issues but it could be better. If I can get an LDC to work that would be even cooler.. I have used headphones before (HD650's) without too much issue, it just seems to be these one's as they're more on the side of isolation. I could buy some different one's but I'm trying to avoid any new purchases and make what I have work.
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 22, 2024 5:22:06 GMT -6
How do they throw you off? Pitch, timing or just feel? Have you tried all the reversing phase of your monitors tricks? Then there's the other trick of being between monitors and then another pass without singing and phase reverse that signal against the sung pass. All these techniques make for a DAW session that looks like Tetris when you come to editing. I know Phil Collins says on his solo records he records without headphones, same as Gabriel and they use LDC's. I bet they just tolerate a degree of bleed and that's that - grab the performance and that rules that day. Both pitch and delivery, I've not tried reversing the phase yet but it's pretty simple to do on the SSL mixer (just a button press) so it shouldn't be an issue.
Yeah, I mean with a bit of trial and error I managed to get it "inline" without too many issues but it could be better. If I can get an LDC to work that would be even cooler.. I have used headphones before (HD650's) without too much issue, it just seems to be these one's as they're more on the side of isolation. I could buy some different one's but I'm trying to avoid any new purchases and make what I have work.
I track with Beyer DT250’s - fairly cheap and easy to just slide off a touch on one ear. I’ve not had any pitching issues using 250’s. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 22, 2024 5:59:02 GMT -6
It’s all about positioning mic and speaker polar patterns, if you have to drastically EQ because of feedback remember to EQ the monitoring buss not the input.
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Post by robo on Apr 22, 2024 8:15:11 GMT -6
I think the key to recording with monitors, aside from the out-of-phase trick, is to not have the vocal coming out of the speakers. You just balance your tone and dynamics in the room, naturally. You’ll need a bit more processing after the fact if you’re going for something stylized, but the performance should be there.
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 22, 2024 10:34:45 GMT -6
another good just using stage monitors example is Tony Bennet never used headphones. Always two monitor wedges and piano, guitar, drums live with him in the room.
It's totally doable. Start trying it out.
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Post by svart on Apr 22, 2024 10:50:58 GMT -6
I've had nothing but problems with monitors in the room while recording. I've received a number of tracks from artists with similar concerns, not being able to use headphones, etc and the vocal tracks are usually very dirty with phasey trash in the background.
Usually the rumble is the worst though and an aggressive HPF goes a long way to helping.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 22, 2024 11:24:13 GMT -6
I've never heard anybody sing with headphones as well as they could without!
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Post by notneeson on Apr 22, 2024 13:25:35 GMT -6
In the RTB book there's a diagram of the Beatles singing to a single monitor in the null of a 67 in figure 8.
I too am sensitive to headphones, it takes an ear off and experimenting with the headphone mix and a lot of warm up to get a good (for me) take.
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 22, 2024 15:28:24 GMT -6
It's an odd one.
Live I sing very accurately and controlled using IEM's - moving over to the band using IEM's has improved the quality of my vocal delivery.
Live recorded vocals sound like they're been done in a studio in terms of pitch accuracy and tone control.
So I conclude surely it's not headphones that are the issue - there must be other physiological factors at play.
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Post by wiz on Apr 22, 2024 18:18:57 GMT -6
Headphones aren't doing it when I'm singing, even with an ear off approach they really seem to throw me off. I know some use monitors and in terms of correct singing it's great but I've had limited success thus far from a production side, I'm either getting feedback or too much signal in the track which is causing issues when mixing. Also I work best with LDC's or SDC's, that being said the Beyer M88, SM58 or M160 aren't really fairing any better than some of my SDC's, I just got away with using an M88 which is great on bass but doesn't suit my voice all that well. Polar patterns don't seem to matter and I'm obviously pointing the mic away from my monitors about 4M away and keeping the Dyn's as quiet as possible.
I think a U89 would have been perfect for this as it's great at close mic'ing with great off axis rejections, I need to try something like a reflection filter as well probably? Although again the U89 is better at this as they don't get as phasey when using a filter. Any other tips, tricks, mic's, suggestions? I must say though everything else is going well so that's cool.
Have you tried flipping the polarity of your mic channel? When tracking with headphones on? |
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Post by bgrotto on Apr 22, 2024 20:25:19 GMT -6
It was mentioned above, but I'll repeat it and add my specific approach: record with the speaker in the room, then do a second pass and record with the mic's polarity inverted (either for a double, or just to capture the speaker bleed). Sum the two together for a pretty good cancellation. For best results:
- filter as much high and low from the monitor as you can without disrupting your ability to hear and lock in.
- be sure to mute any non-final arrangement components, and consider muting any non-essential arrangement components.
- mute any reverb returns or modulation effects.
- make sure your vocal is NOT in the monitor; you'll need to hear yourself acoustically, or consider an earpiece for the vocal monitor.
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Post by chessparov on Apr 22, 2024 21:15:24 GMT -6
“grab the performance and that rules that day” ^^This^^ How did the mole on Elizabeth Taylor’s face feel about discussions of beauty ? Included. FWIW I got used to Direct Monitoring with no Reverb. With headphones. But still agree with Bob O. on the "sans-headphones" thing. Same on the NO pop filters approach. Unless it's a delicate Ribbon. Danny can sing with very high SPL's. Then you usually need a VERY good room.* Right? Or could deadening a smaller Room be OK? Grasshopper asks. Chris *Or M88.  |
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 23, 2024 11:25:04 GMT -6
It's an odd one. Live I sing very accurately and controlled using IEM's - moving over to the band using IEM's has improved the quality of my vocal delivery. Live recorded vocals sound like they're been done in a studio in terms of pitch accuracy and tone control. So I conclude surely it's not headphones that are the issue - there must be other physiological factors at play. It’s probably due to mixing on my Dyn’s and nothing else for a while. They’re completely accurate, the Beyer’s aren’t and I’m very sensitive to pitch, distortion and frequency. It doesn’t take much to knock me off, I can tune an instrument dead on by ear in no time at all though but there’s something called tuners so it’s not all that helpful. I guess it’s cool for mixing and spotting problems I suppose. Even then though it really doesn’t help with the whole recording thing. I’m far from the only musician that’s like this. It’s a pita for sure.. |
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Post by horizoneer on Apr 23, 2024 11:32:40 GMT -6
The point about not having the mic in the monitors is key really. It's about the vocalist hearing themselves naturally in the room, and then balancing the music coming out of the monitors so the vocalist feels supported - not too exposed, and not struggling to hear their voice over the music.
I prefer doing it that way 100% of the time, when the vocalist is cool with it. Sometimes their insecurity will demand the music be too loud, or they need to hear their processed vocal piped back to them to get psyched up, in which case the no headphones approach starts to get harder.
But that said... I've been amazed how rarely bleed is a problem, when the relative volumes are right and an appropriate mic is chosen.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 23, 2024 11:34:36 GMT -6
I've never heard anybody sing with headphones as well as they could without! I know of at least one band and I cannot mention the name, who discovered they preformed best in the studio with their stage rig XL3 and Firehouse wedges, got a call from the AE all panicked because the wedges sound like his Augspergers. They should they have the same TAD drivers😁 |
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 23, 2024 11:50:07 GMT -6
Ultimately I’m just going to try all of it, I keep my monitors low volume anyway when recording. I’ll flip the phase on them, buy a mic that I know reduces reverberations. I’ve owned a U89 twice and sold it but I wouldn’t be doing my job properly if I didn’t get a third. Might try the TLM 170 instead? I do have a bit of grit in my voice nowadays but it’s a mousey amount and a dynamic is a mouse trap.
I’ll get an active wedge because positioning is way better than a pair of monitors coming at you. I’ll try a reflections filter that I bought from GIK but forgot about. Then remove the vox etc.
No issues with a bit of bleed, if you’ve ever recorded a drum kit or an orchestra it doesn’t always matter and sometimes it even helps.
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 23, 2024 12:35:56 GMT -6
It's an odd one. Live I sing very accurately and controlled using IEM's - moving over to the band using IEM's has improved the quality of my vocal delivery. Live recorded vocals sound like they're been done in a studio in terms of pitch accuracy and tone control. So I conclude surely it's not headphones that are the issue - there must be other physiological factors at play. It’s probably due to mixing on my Dyn’s and nothing else for a while. They’re completely accurate, the Beyer’s aren’t and I’m very sensitive to pitch, distortion and frequency. It doesn’t take much to knock me off, I can tune an instrument dead on by ear in no time at all though but there’s something called tuners so it’s not all that helpful. I guess it’s cool for mixing and spotting problems I suppose. Even then though it really doesn’t help with the whole recording thing. I’m far from the only musician that’s like this. It’s a pita for sure.. Interesting, I've never been sensitive to the type of monitoring I use for pitch accuracy, I think it's kinda done inside my minds ear - hard to describe. Getting the right vibe is important though so I like nice ambient lighting Hope you get it sorted. |
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 23, 2024 12:57:18 GMT -6
It’s probably due to mixing on my Dyn’s and nothing else for a while. They’re completely accurate, the Beyer’s aren’t and I’m very sensitive to pitch, distortion and frequency. It doesn’t take much to knock me off, I can tune an instrument dead on by ear in no time at all though but there’s something called tuners so it’s not all that helpful. I guess it’s cool for mixing and spotting problems I suppose. Even then though it really doesn’t help with the whole recording thing. I’m far from the only musician that’s like this. It’s a pita for sure.. Interesting, I've never been sensitive to the type of monitoring I use for pitch accuracy, I think it's kinda done inside my minds ear - hard to describe. Getting the right vibe is important though so I like nice ambient lighting Hope you get it sorted. Unfortunately we’re all stuck with what we’ve got. Stick me in front of a c800 or Schoeps for a Justin Timberlake style vocal or even loud opera with no mic at all and I will nail it. It absolutely sucks for a many decade wannabe rock or metal singer who was brought up on those genres though. Not everyone is you Tenor, we all have our thing.. I just make do. I can do the death metal vox thing really well it’s just a travesty when I switch between lol. So yeah, some singers aren’t perfect but it’s not the end of the world. |
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Post by chessparov on Apr 23, 2024 13:04:51 GMT -6
I'm afraid of Wedgies though. Childhood Trauma ya know. Let alone Thee Wedge here/nearby around Newport Harbor. Although a few of the MIA "Bikini offings"/Wardrobe Malfunctions... Were certainly... Swell. Put under wave files (and smiles) |
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 23, 2024 15:30:18 GMT -6
Interesting, I've never been sensitive to the type of monitoring I use for pitch accuracy, I think it's kinda done inside my minds ear - hard to describe. Getting the right vibe is important though so I like nice ambient lighting Hope you get it sorted. Unfortunately we’re all stuck with what we’ve got. Stick me in front of a c800 or Schoeps for a Justin Timberlake style vocal or even loud opera with no mic at all and I will nail it. It absolutely sucks for a many decade wannabe rock or metal singer who was brought up on those genres though. Not everyone is you Tenor, we all have our thing.. I just make do. I can do the death metal vox thing really well it’s just a travesty when I switch between lol. So yeah, some singers aren’t perfect but it’s not the end of the world. Sure, I understand. I've not got the voice I want - I can totally relate to working with what you've got. I was just pondering the fact your spot on without headphones and with headphones it throws you, I know having no headphones is a better vibe (it is for me too) but pitch is an odd thing - no question about that. How do you get on singing live with a band - are you OK on floor wedges? |
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 25, 2024 14:15:54 GMT -6
Sure, I understand. I've not got the voice I want - I can totally relate to working with what you've got. I was just pondering the fact your spot on without headphones and with headphones it throws you, I know having no headphones is a better vibe (it is for me too) but pitch is an odd thing - no question about that. How do you get on singing live with a band - are you OK on floor wedges? Yeah, no issues with floor wedges. |
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