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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 12, 2024 18:44:46 GMT -6
I’m gonna say this and then duck. Gotta be honest. Going back and forth listening to the DA of the Hilo and Apollo (level matched)…and they’re really really similar. To the point that I thought maybe I screwed something up. The Hilo is a little softer on the peaks in that pinch zone…but…that’s not a $2000 difference. I’m obviously going to keep it for a while, but it’s definitely not as “exciting” as the Burl.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 12, 2024 19:07:46 GMT -6
Early days, it sounds like something is not right with the hilo, have you reached out to lynx support too?
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 12, 2024 19:26:16 GMT -6
I’m gonna say this and then duck. Gotta be honest. Going back and forth listening to the DA of the Hilo and Apollo (level matched)…and they’re really really similar. To the point that I thought maybe I screwed something up. The Hilo is a little softer on the peaks in that pinch zone…but…that’s not a $2000 difference. I’m obviously going to keep it for a while, but it’s definitely not as “exciting” as the Burl. Apollo aside for a second it's usually the analog I/O if anything that will make a difference. Even then I've had a few mixing desks (which could also be classed as "summing mixers") that sounded no different to a clean interface, boring might be the apt description there and that's not what you want from a mixer is it?
The SSL BS I have sounds wildly different to your standard interface so to compare the DAC I had to route the Carbon into the SSL or it wouldn't be a fair comparison. I switched back and forth for hours between the ADC built into the SSL & Carbon, there was zero difference between the two. I dunno if I was doing something with the Apollo that it didn't like but technically speaking there shouldn't of been any difference either. I'm not saying there isn't subtle differences between some interfaces (like MOTU 1248 / Carbon) but for the most part conversion is what I care about the least.
The Hilo is just a solid interface and I did say you'd get away with the latest MOTU 828  .. I doubt you'd have noticed much if any difference between that and the Carbon / Hilo either. |
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Post by wiz on Mar 12, 2024 19:29:28 GMT -6
I am a bit confused... but... here is a thought.... have you swapped the ins of the monitor controller??? Johnkenncheers Wiz |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 12, 2024 20:07:23 GMT -6
I am a bit confused... but... here is a thought.... have you swapped the ins of the monitor controller??? Johnkenncheers Wiz Yeah. End of page one. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 12, 2024 20:11:48 GMT -6
This is probably something that I’m gonna have to get in-person support for. Just too complicated to read it and understand unless you’re looking at it.
Here’s what it sounds like - sounds like the output of the Hilo is -10 and the Apollo is -10. Not that that’s the issue, but that’s what the volume difference sounds and feels like.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 12, 2024 20:50:20 GMT -6
My Aurora n sounded very different then my x6, I can’t imagine the hilo and the X sounding that similiar?
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Post by bubblejackets on Mar 12, 2024 21:08:50 GMT -6
Didn’t read the thread in detail … but I ended up removing some jumpers internally so the Hilo monitor outs were at +24dbu (instead of +10).
It’s page 59 of the manual. That seemed to put things more in line with x8 monitor outs.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 12, 2024 21:30:19 GMT -6
Didn’t read the thread in detail … but I ended up removing some jumpers internally so the Hilo monitor outs were at +24dbu (instead of +10). It’s page 59 of the manual. That seemed to put things more in line with x8 monitor outs. that sounds promising Johnkenn |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 12, 2024 22:00:42 GMT -6
Didn’t read the thread in detail … but I ended up removing some jumpers internally so the Hilo monitor outs were at +24dbu (instead of +10). It’s page 59 of the manual. That seemed to put things more in line with x8 monitor outs. You. Might. Be. The. Man. It’s the Monitor outs that are the issue. They are drastically lower output than the Line Outs. Is this what it is? I’m not insane? |
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Post by drsax on Mar 12, 2024 22:07:02 GMT -6
Didn’t read the thread in detail … but I ended up removing some jumpers internally so the Hilo monitor outs were at +24dbu (instead of +10). It’s page 59 of the manual. That seemed to put things more in line with x8 monitor outs. You. Might. Be. The. Man. It’s the Monitor outs that are the issue. They are drastically lower output than the Line Outs. Is this what it is? I’m not insane? I think this is the answer. I remember this when I was setting my system up. In my case, I did not move the jumper, but just boosted the volume on my monitors. |
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Post by drsax on Mar 12, 2024 22:10:04 GMT -6
and P.S. - I know it can be frustrating getting things set up properly and that can certainly dampen the user experience, which can also alter perception as well. But I will say that the conversion on the Hilo to my ears is substantially superior to the Apollo. On certain mixes, it may not seem night and day, but once you start working with it and understand what it offers, it is a pretty big step up in conversion in my opinion
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 12, 2024 22:15:06 GMT -6
But I'm using the Digital IN not the Line Ins... And you're saying you bump up your line in volume on the routing page on the Hilo? Any idea why there's a loss? Here's a video of what's happening. After this video, I took the Hilo completely out of the chain to rule it out as being the culprit. I connected the Apollo SPDIF to AES directly. The Top Meter is the level is the Digital In. The bottom one is the Monitor Outs. They read exactly the same. But when I switch the monitor controller from the Hilo Mon Outs to the Apollo Monitor Outs, there's about a 9.5db drop in volume. But what's weird is the meters stay exactly the same. If they're the same, why is there an audible drop in volume. So the video shows the apollo > Trinnov > Hilo Digital Path compared to the Monitor Outs directly from the Apollo. Again - meters say they're the same, but switching between the two, the straight-from-apollo is way louder. I can go to Routing > Digital In > and turn the volume on the digital signal up to +9.5 and it matches the volume from the Apollo...but then I see my Monitor out clipping on the Hilo. Signed, Confused I think I understand what you’re saying. Do you have all the Hilo settings at default? Maybe there’s something in the Hilo mixer that is not set at zero? Also, I’m thinking that maybe the Hilo monitor outs are lower level than the xlr line outs. I haven’t compared directly with my Apollo cuz only monitor through my Hilo which brings me to me last thought: The Hilo conversion is VASTLY superior to my Apollo conversion. The DA is SO much better. I will say that Lynx support has been excellent for me. If you call, I’m guessing they’d get you squared away. And if the Lynx is lower in volume to your speakers, can’t you do a volume boost on your monitors? Or are they at max volume already. Anyway, I hope you get it all squared away and wish I wasn’t so crazy busy today and tomorrow because I’d be happy to try and help you get it sorted. Toward the end of this week into the weekend I might have a little free time. If you don’t have it solved by then, let me know. The Hilo does have a pretty complex routing system, but once I set mine up, I never have to touch it and it sounds absolutely stellar. Thanks man! I will take you up on that. If I go out of the Apollo monitor outs into the line in of the Hilo, then Line Out of the Hilo to the monitors - it’s waaay louder, so it’s got to be an issue with the Monitor Outs. I’d just use the line outs as the monitor path, but I have to go digital to the Trinnov, then digital from the Trinnov to the Hilo…hell I can’t remember now. I’ve tried so many different things. There’s was some reason I was thinking I couldn’t use the Line Out as the Monitor Outs…but I can’t think of it now. Hell maybe I can! I’ll try tomorrow. |
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Post by drsax on Mar 12, 2024 22:17:50 GMT -6
I think I understand what you’re saying. Do you have all the Hilo settings at default? Maybe there’s something in the Hilo mixer that is not set at zero? Also, I’m thinking that maybe the Hilo monitor outs are lower level than the xlr line outs. I haven’t compared directly with my Apollo cuz only monitor through my Hilo which brings me to me last thought: The Hilo conversion is VASTLY superior to my Apollo conversion. The DA is SO much better. I will say that Lynx support has been excellent for me. If you call, I’m guessing they’d get you squared away. And if the Lynx is lower in volume to your speakers, can’t you do a volume boost on your monitors? Or are they at max volume already. Anyway, I hope you get it all squared away and wish I wasn’t so crazy busy today and tomorrow because I’d be happy to try and help you get it sorted. Toward the end of this week into the weekend I might have a little free time. If you don’t have it solved by then, let me know. The Hilo does have a pretty complex routing system, but once I set mine up, I never have to touch it and it sounds absolutely stellar. Thanks man! I will take you up on that. If I go out of the Apollo monitor outs into the line in of the Hilo, then Line Out of the Hilo to the monitors - it’s waaay louder, so it’s got to be an issue with the Monitor Outs. I’d just use the line outs as the monitor path, but I have to go digital to the Trinnov, then digital from the Trinnov to the Hilo…hell I can’t remember now. I’ve tried so many different things. There’s was some reason I was thinking I couldn’t use the Line Out as the Monitor Outs…but I can’t think of it now. Hell maybe I can! I’ll try tomorrow. cool, let me know… but definitely check the previously mentioned internal jumper setting. Super easy to switch and may solve your issue and still allow you to use the monitor outs |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 12, 2024 22:21:06 GMT -6
Meant to say this earlier. I tried so many different combos of things I can’t keep it all straight…but when I first tried going out to the monitors on Line Out instead of monitor outs…it was pretty freaking stunning. Way more like I was expecting.
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 13, 2024 7:48:07 GMT -6
On the Hilo, there is line in line out trim settings. If those are set too low, you will have a big volume drop. I think I’ve got mine at +22. Most modern converters are set between +20 and +24. And regarding clocking, yes, I find it sounds best when I clock from the Hilo. It has a better clock than the Apollo But I'm using the Digital IN not the Line Ins... And you're saying you bump up your line in volume on the routing page on the Hilo? Any idea why there's a loss? Here's a video of what's happening. After this video, I took the Hilo completely out of the chain to rule it out as being the culprit. I connected the Apollo SPDIF to AES directly. The Top Meter is the level is the Digital In. The bottom one is the Monitor Outs. They read exactly the same. But when I switch the monitor controller from the Hilo Mon Outs to the Apollo Monitor Outs, there's about a 9.5db drop in volume. But what's weird is the meters stay exactly the same. If they're the same, why is there an audible drop in volume. So the video shows the apollo > Trinnov > Hilo Digital Path compared to the Monitor Outs directly from the Apollo. Again - meters say they're the same, but switching between the two, the straight-from-apollo is way louder. I can go to Routing > Digital In > and turn the volume on the digital signal up to +9.5 and it matches the volume from the Apollo...but then I see my Monitor out clipping on the Hilo. Signed, Confused I find these things so frustrating - I know I could sort it in 60 seconds if I was physically there in your room. It's a setting somewhere in one of the units - the manual is now both your enemy and your friend. It must be on the analog side as the Hilo meters are showing FS digital in both cases. Are you running both fully balanced on the analog side - that can in certain circumstances cause a 6dB drop in level (technically half the volume) It might be something like that, something thinks it seeing balanced audio when it's not or a software where setting in the Hilo or Trinnov or the Heritage monitor controller inputs aren't the same for some reason, or are different electrical formats (balanced - unbalanced) It's most likely something in that area and most likely on the analog side. But of course, I'm not there and I don't have those exact pieces of kit - so I'm guessing but I've had similar issues in the past and the solution was found in those areas. Send a test signal from your DAW - sine wave at 0dBFS (turn your monitors down!) it will help you trace the culprit as the digital meters should show exactly 0dBFS then you can commit your energy to the analog side and find what's causing the boost or the attenuation. Good luck. Nice gear :-) |
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Post by svart on Mar 13, 2024 8:08:47 GMT -6
If I’m going digital out of the interface into another DAC for monitoring, do I have to choose a master clock, or should they clock separately? If they are AES/SPDIF, then no other clock is needed. AES/SPDIF are serial streams and are bi-phase encoded, which means they have the clock embedded in the datastream. The first one is always the master and the second is always the slave. However, you might need to set the slave unit to clock itself FROM the AES/SPDIF. You should never use an external clock along with an AES/SPDIF sourced datastream. AES/ SPDIF generally don't have any kind of buffering so there would be a significant chance for frame slippage (pops, clicks, other weirdness). |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 13, 2024 9:30:02 GMT -6
If I’m going digital out of the interface into another DAC for monitoring, do I have to choose a master clock, or should they clock separately? If they are AES/SPDIF, then no other clock is needed. AES/SPDIF are serial streams and are bi-phase encoded, which means they have the clock embedded in the datastream. The first one is always the master and the second is always the slave. However, you might need to set the slave unit to clock itself FROM the AES/SPDIF. You should never use an external clock along with an AES/SPDIF sourced datastream. AES/ SPDIF generally don't have any kind of buffering so there would be a significant chance for frame slippage (pops, clicks, other weirdness). So the Hilo only has one WC out and I have two other units. I’ve been using the AES signal to clock it…but now that I think about it, it would now be getting clock signal from the Apollo…I’d imagine this isn’t ideal. How do you deal with that? |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 13, 2024 9:36:52 GMT -6
If they are AES/SPDIF, then no other clock is needed. AES/SPDIF are serial streams and are bi-phase encoded, which means they have the clock embedded in the datastream. The first one is always the master and the second is always the slave. However, you might need to set the slave unit to clock itself FROM the AES/SPDIF. You should never use an external clock along with an AES/SPDIF sourced datastream. AES/ SPDIF generally don't have any kind of buffering so there would be a significant chance for frame slippage (pops, clicks, other weirdness). So the Hilo only has one WC out and I have two other units. I’ve been using the AES signal to clock it…but now that I think about it, it would now be getting clock signal from the Apollo…I’d imagine this isn’t ideal. How do you deal with that? It's really simple with AES / S/pdif, set the Hilo as the master. Done, nothing else is needed.. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2024 10:21:23 GMT -6
If they are AES/SPDIF, then no other clock is needed. AES/SPDIF are serial streams and are bi-phase encoded, which means they have the clock embedded in the datastream. The first one is always the master and the second is always the slave. However, you might need to set the slave unit to clock itself FROM the AES/SPDIF. You should never use an external clock along with an AES/SPDIF sourced datastream. AES/ SPDIF generally don't have any kind of buffering so there would be a significant chance for frame slippage (pops, clicks, other weirdness). So the Hilo only has one WC out and I have two other units. I’ve been using the AES signal to clock it…but now that I think about it, it would now be getting clock signal from the Apollo…I’d imagine this isn’t ideal. How do you deal with that? Get some BNC T adapters. |
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Post by svart on Mar 13, 2024 10:55:34 GMT -6
If they are AES/SPDIF, then no other clock is needed. AES/SPDIF are serial streams and are bi-phase encoded, which means they have the clock embedded in the datastream. The first one is always the master and the second is always the slave. However, you might need to set the slave unit to clock itself FROM the AES/SPDIF. You should never use an external clock along with an AES/SPDIF sourced datastream. AES/ SPDIF generally don't have any kind of buffering so there would be a significant chance for frame slippage (pops, clicks, other weirdness). So the Hilo only has one WC out and I have two other units. I’ve been using the AES signal to clock it…but now that I think about it, it would now be getting clock signal from the Apollo…I’d imagine this isn’t ideal. How do you deal with that? I haven't really been following how you have things set up. What are the units you are trying to chain together again? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 13, 2024 11:12:32 GMT -6
bubblejackets is my hero. That worked on the volume issue! Now I gotta figure out why my Trinnov mic isn't workin. Sigh
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2024 11:40:33 GMT -6
bubblejackets is my hero. That worked on the volume issue! Now I gotta figure out why my Trinnov mic isn't workin. Sigh In no way am I knocking Trinnov, but damn the Mini DSP USB mic for Dirac is cheap, SM57 cheap, with Custom Calibration file Beta57 cheap. I do think the Trinnov is better at Phase issues, though maybe better than my MBHO with custom calibration file. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 13, 2024 12:48:30 GMT -6
bubblejackets is my hero. That worked on the volume issue! Now I gotta figure out why my Trinnov mic isn't workin. Sigh In no way am I knocking Trinnov, but damn the Mini DSP USB mic for Dirac is cheap, SM57 cheap, with Custom Calibration file Beta57 cheap. I do think the Trinnov is better at Phase issues, though maybe better than my MBHO with custom calibration file. Honestly, I know nothing about Mini DSP. I tried DIRAC one time and didn't really gell with it. Preferred SW. But I'm all for saving money. Can you point me to the site? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 13, 2024 12:50:44 GMT -6
bubblejackets is my hero. That worked on the volume issue! Now I gotta figure out why my Trinnov mic isn't workin. Sigh In no way am I knocking Trinnov, but damn the Mini DSP USB mic for Dirac is cheap, SM57 cheap, with Custom Calibration file Beta57 cheap. I do think the Trinnov is better at Phase issues, though maybe better than my MBHO with custom calibration file. I can see where this ST-2 IS getting a little long in the tooth. I've thought about selling and getting the Nova...but I would think selling the Trinnov would be a task at the moment. |
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.. I doubt you'd have noticed much if any difference between that and the Carbon / Hilo either.
