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Post by Dan on Mar 14, 2024 7:54:49 GMT -6
Arguing about audio gear on the internet is pretty pointless. If you cannot get it done with what comes with the daw or what's on the board + a couple pieces of outboard then you're not getting it done with anything. It will just take way longer, you'll have to ride faders like crazy, use a ton of subsequent eqs in the board stuff changing the sound to solve problems (which can sound cool but also be a struggle), clip off transients in the DAW stuff, and it will have a sound for better or worse. Okay it will sound like crap half the time and as my friend a bassist put it recently "YOU'RE SETTING YOURSELF UP FOR FAILURE" in all caps about any insistence on just using what comes with the DAW but it can be done but it will often sound like crap.
Stock Reaper mixes have this insane grey tv static grit, stock Cubase plastic gritty and sheeny, stock Pro Tools like smashing plastic or glass and getting glass embedded in your hands, and Stock Logic shiny plastic like Jacob Collier's timbre, think crappy plastic translucent multicolored imac in the dump, or usually garage band stuff because they rewrote a lot of the fx in the 2000s and some not at all, Ableton a very "white static, white noise" multibanded glued smashed pumpy tone because of how it pretty encourages multiband processing -> the glue -> the stock limiter, and FL a darker grittier tone from it's weirdo defective buggy plugins. Monitoring, if you cannot get it done on NS10s + a bigger reference, it's probably not getting it done. If you cannot get it done on JBL LSR 305s + a bigger reference, it's not getting done. Yamaha HS8 + a more detailed and dynamic reference. Those were the closest thing to NS10s for a while but have a FAR FAR worse transient response and the Kalis are kinda replacing them but their waveguide and hornflare is not as beneficial for highlighting issues. I hope they get an active version of the new expensive one because the bigger cheap ones just sounded resonant to me. Oh and Yamaha speakers are pretty hifi despite everyone on the internet bitching that they're lofi. They make vocals and guitars sound way better than they are in a mix because the mid mids are often resonant and there is the audible 2 kHz Yamaha crossover so there is a tendency to undermix the guitars because the notes are jumping out and the crossover hides the nasty. Even the 90s NS10s with the better drivers, the great NS1000, and recent MSP7. That's just how they're voiced. The HS8 hides a lot and beams so you can hide bad top end just by moving your head. Kevin Shields from My Bloody Valentine mentioned this about Yamaha and guitars in Sound on Sound and I agree with him wholeheartedly. |
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Post by ericn on Mar 14, 2024 7:58:54 GMT -6
Look, I'm fine with Shadow being judgmental towards my stuff. It doesn't bother me one bit, even if I think he's gone a little overboard with it in this case. I'd rather him be open about his opinions than keeping them a secret. I'll defend anyone's free speech even if I don't like it. The world needs more free speech, not less. If our feelings get hurt by folks not liking our audio work, then we are surely in the wrong business! Anyway, I still don't think super-duper expensive monitors are really worth the cost. Some don't like the monitors I've chosen for myself either. I know dudes who make hits on 400$ beat up NS10's and think my 5K$ monitors are complete overkill. We're all going to have our own likes and dislikes and that's just life. You’re a freaking legend, svart. Can you run for President? No politics Totally a political statement but isn’t his experience with sewer robots the ultimate qualification for being president? I see the ad “ SVART HE KNOWS THE SEWER, he is ready for politics “ |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 14, 2024 8:45:07 GMT -6
Look, I'm fine with Shadow being judgmental towards my stuff. It doesn't bother me one bit, even if I think he's gone a little overboard with it in this case. I'd rather him be open about his opinions than keeping them a secret. I'll defend anyone's free speech even if I don't like it. The world needs more free speech, not less. If our feelings get hurt by folks not liking our audio work, then we are surely in the wrong business! I appreciate that Chris, fully agree and apologies to everyone. I did go a bit overboard.. (Yes, person on the internet admitting it). |
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Post by recordingengineer on Mar 14, 2024 9:29:58 GMT -6
For me, it’s a matter of how much the entire monitoring system can handle what I throw at it, at the SPL anyone may desire in the room, at any given time. All depending, plenty of great $5k-$10k systems will fold on me; usually due to the amount of bass I’m feeding them. Horses for courses I suppose. I also can't monitor at high levels or my ears get blown out for the day. I'm barely above speaking volume when monitoring and I won't turn it up beyond that. Even watching movies or whatever, I barely turn it up to hear the voices clearly and then that's good enough. I rather don't like the ball-shaking bass some folks have dialed up. Getting back to it, yes you’re right. In my case though, it’s not my job to only cater to my needs and comfort. It’s to cater to my clients’ and the artists’ too. And when the new young rapper kid thinks it’s all about ridiculous, over-bearing bass and wants to hear his song cranked or the deaf, highly-seasoned veteran rock bass player has to hear his bass absurdly over the mix and everything cranked to hell, to overdub his part, then that’s what I’m going to give them. There are plenty of great $5k monitors that can’t handle it. Plus, when I mix, early-on, a number of times, I blast to hell, go to the sub-bass heaviest section of the room and listen to the interactions of sub-bass with the drums, bass, synths, etc.; many things reveal themselves and I adjust until they’re right. |
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Post by ericn on Mar 14, 2024 9:49:48 GMT -6
Horses for courses I suppose. I also can't monitor at high levels or my ears get blown out for the day. I'm barely above speaking volume when monitoring and I won't turn it up beyond that. Even watching movies or whatever, I barely turn it up to hear the voices clearly and then that's good enough. I rather don't like the ball-shaking bass some folks have dialed up. Getting back to it, yes you’re right. In my case though, it’s not my job to only cater to my needs and comfort. It’s to cater to my clients’ and the artists’ too. And when the new young rapper kid thinks it’s all about ridiculous, over-bearing bass and wants to hear his song cranked or the deaf, highly-seasoned veteran rock bass player has to hear his bass absurdly over the mix and everything cranked to hell, to overdub his part, then that’s what I’m going to give them. There are plenty of great $5k monitors that can’t handle it. Plus, when I mix, early-on, a number of times, I blast to hell, go to the sub-bass heaviest section of the room and listen to the interactions of sub-bass with the drums, bass, synths, etc.; many things reveal themselves and I adjust until they’re right. What a lot of the home / project studio owners don’t get is we sell a service not a product. The buisness is built on repeat clients, if as a for hire professional you don’t deliver the experience they want someone else will. Even in the glory days of big rooms nobody really paid any attention to the cost of acquisition, the cost of acquiring a new client. If they had many would have made kissing the ass of the artist and producer a true art form. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 14, 2024 9:57:43 GMT -6
Horses for courses I suppose. I also can't monitor at high levels or my ears get blown out for the day. I'm barely above speaking volume when monitoring and I won't turn it up beyond that. Even watching movies or whatever, I barely turn it up to hear the voices clearly and then that's good enough. I rather don't like the ball-shaking bass some folks have dialed up. Getting back to it, yes you’re right. In my case though, it’s not my job to only cater to my needs and comfort. It’s to cater to my clients’ and the artists’ too. And when the new young rapper kid thinks it’s all about ridiculous, over-bearing bass and wants to hear his song cranked or the deaf, highly-seasoned veteran rock bass player has to hear his bass absurdly over the mix and everything cranked to hell, to overdub his part, then that’s what I’m going to give them. There are plenty of great $5k monitors that can’t handle it. Plus, when I mix, early-on, a number of times, I blast to hell, go to the sub-bass heaviest section of the room and listen to the interactions of sub-bass with the drums, bass, synths, etc.; many things reveal themselves and I adjust until they’re right. the neumanns don't have the headroom to handle raw recordings in the upper bass and low mids. the woofers shit out and sound distorted. they've made them worse recently by adjusting the crossovers in the new two way monkey coffins for more bass with the same drivers.
even if you like the sound, the kh310 need a sub to take the strain off the woofer they've electronically boosted the low end of too much in the crossover. the monkey coffiins are hopeless and one note.
the current genelecs sound super processed too in the bass and the highs are more limited than the neumanns but more detail at lower volumes. you can get the sub columns for them if you're loaded but you cannot get more headroom from that coaxial assembly without it crunching up and dying like the old yamaha msp tweeters.
the kiis just sounded hilarious wrong with a ton of music and mixes. the sliding crossover and limiter sounds so stupid once you realize what the dsp is doing internally. save that shit for sound bars, not monitors.
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Post by shakermaker on Mar 14, 2024 10:45:02 GMT -6
so, are you keeping the core 59s? love mine lol
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 14, 2024 10:54:09 GMT -6
so, are you keeping the core 59s? love mine lol For now at least, I think my ears over years have gotten a bit more sensitive to high frequencies so I'll eventually swap them out. It's more of a me thing rather than a monitor thing per se.. |
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Post by ericn on Mar 14, 2024 11:48:30 GMT -6
Getting back to it, yes you’re right. In my case though, it’s not my job to only cater to my needs and comfort. It’s to cater to my clients’ and the artists’ too. And when the new young rapper kid thinks it’s all about ridiculous, over-bearing bass and wants to hear his song cranked or the deaf, highly-seasoned veteran rock bass player has to hear his bass absurdly over the mix and everything cranked to hell, to overdub his part, then that’s what I’m going to give them. There are plenty of great $5k monitors that can’t handle it. Plus, when I mix, early-on, a number of times, I blast to hell, go to the sub-bass heaviest section of the room and listen to the interactions of sub-bass with the drums, bass, synths, etc.; many things reveal themselves and I adjust until they’re right. the neumanns don't have the headroom to handle raw recordings in the upper bass and low mids. the woofers shit out and sound distorted. they've made them worse recently by adjusting the crossovers in the new two way monkey coffins for more bass with the same drivers.
even if you like the sound, the kh310 need a sub to take the strain off the woofer they've electronically boosted the low end of too much in the crossover. the monkey coffiins are hopeless and one note.
the current genelecs sound super processed too in the bass and the highs are more limited than the neumanns but more detail at lower volumes. you can get the sub columns for them if you're loaded but you cannot get more headroom from that coaxial assembly without it crunching up and dying like the old yamaha msp tweeters.
the kiis just sounded hilarious wrong with a ton of music and mixes. the sliding crossover and limiter sounds so stupid once you realize what the dsp is doing internally. save that shit for sound bars, not monitors.
Sliding crossovers can work great in SR, but in the studio I am far less likely to have a driver fail. It really sucks when the crossover point is a moving target and your trying to dial in a vocal, but the dip at the xover point keeps moving. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 14, 2024 11:51:43 GMT -6
the neumanns don't have the headroom to handle raw recordings in the upper bass and low mids. the woofers shit out and sound distorted. they've made them worse recently by adjusting the crossovers in the new two way monkey coffins for more bass with the same drivers.
even if you like the sound, the kh310 need a sub to take the strain off the woofer they've electronically boosted the low end of too much in the crossover. the monkey coffiins are hopeless and one note.
the current genelecs sound super processed too in the bass and the highs are more limited than the neumanns but more detail at lower volumes. you can get the sub columns for them if you're loaded but you cannot get more headroom from that coaxial assembly without it crunching up and dying like the old yamaha msp tweeters.
the kiis just sounded hilarious wrong with a ton of music and mixes. the sliding crossover and limiter sounds so stupid once you realize what the dsp is doing internally. save that shit for sound bars, not monitors.
Sliding crossovers can work great in SR, but in the studio I am far less likely to have a driver fail. It really sucks when the crossover point is a moving target and your trying to dial in a vocal, but the dip at the xover point keeps moving. Well it's for the subwoofer. Why make subbass come out of small speakers? Rap records sound hilarious on them because the omnipresent low end shifts around. |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 14, 2024 11:54:59 GMT -6
Actually, I've decided what I'm going to do.. Take Dan's advice, there's not a massive amount of difference between Geithain's (as a series), they sound very similar to the Core's. Instead of spending that amount I'll just get a pair of RL906's (5" mini Geithains) as a B pair and use that primarily for mixing then flip to the Dyn's to check the bass.
Well, no $20K monitors and I was wrong about many things so please excuse me whilst I go and facepalm so hard I'll need to see a dentist.
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Post by ericn on Mar 14, 2024 12:00:38 GMT -6
Sliding crossovers can work great in SR, but in the studio I am far less likely to have a driver fail. It really sucks when the crossover point is a moving target and your trying to dial in a vocal, but the dip at the xover point keeps moving. Well it's for the subwoofer. Why make subbass come out of small speakers? Rap records sound hilarious on them because the omnipresent low end shifts around. Everyone wants big bass with the least obtrusive box, it can be done but you have to understand there will be compromises and what those compromises mean. I remember years ago a guy had mixed this 12in on a Bagend ELF sub, really sounded awesome on that sub, but if you played it on a normal sub that went down to 20HZ it sucked because a big part of his awesome LF was in fact the ELF compressing and limiting To protect the driver. But on a wall of ELF subs pushed it was awesome! |
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Post by ericn on Mar 14, 2024 12:05:20 GMT -6
Actually, I've decided what I'm going to do.. Take Dan's advice, there's not a massive amount of difference between Geithain's (as a series), they sound very similar to the Core's. Instead of spending that amount I'll just get a pair of RL906's (5" mini Geithains) as a B pair and use that primarily for mixing then flip to the Dyn's to check the bass. Well, no $20K monitors and I was wrong about many things so please excuse me whilst I go and facepalm so hard I'll need to see a dentist. I’m going to make a suggestion, try the Dynaudio’s with a pair of nice subs like the SVS 3000 series or better yet a big pair of Volt loaded Questeds. Just bypass the shitty high pass in the built in xover using Harrison Labs little Passive filters once you get the xover point sorted out. |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 14, 2024 12:28:18 GMT -6
I’m going to make a suggestion, try the Dynaudio’s with a pair of nice subs like the SVS 3000 series or better yet a big pair of Volt loaded Questeds. Just bypass the shitty high pass in the built in xover using Harrison Labs little Passive filters once you get the xover point sorted out. On that note I could trade in the Dyn's and get the RL906's with the Geithain Cardioid sub (Basis), after trade in it would probably cost me £3.5K, it's a better integrated full range system and the reason why I haven't considered that yet completely escapes me. It's been a heck of a year already, obviously my head's not screwed on right. |
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Post by ericn on Mar 14, 2024 12:46:27 GMT -6
I’m going to make a suggestion, try the Dynaudio’s with a pair of nice subs like the SVS 3000 series or better yet a big pair of Volt loaded Questeds. Just bypass the shitty high pass in the built in xover using Harrison Labs little Passive filters once you get the xover point sorted out. On that note I could trade in the Dyn's and get the RL906's with the Geithain Cardioid sub (Basis), after trade in it would probably cost me £3.5K, it's a better integrated full range system and the reason why I haven't considered that yet completely escapes me. It's been a heck of a year already, obviously my head's not screwed on right. The main reason for suggesting the SVS and Quested are I know both can pretty much intergrate with anything. The SVS also are a pretty compact option. BradD replaced a monstrously large mono Servo sub with a pair of SVS and they are a better fit with his ATC 20’s. Of course I will note he is using the insanely expensive JL audio Cross over for high pass duty. Before diving to deep into any cardiod sub, remember yes at 180 degrees off axis you will have a nice cardiod notch but the rear corners are still going to have a pretty healthy output. They are cardiod not completely silent in the rear. |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 14, 2024 15:26:00 GMT -6
Look, I'm fine with Shadow being judgmental towards my stuff. It doesn't bother me one bit, even if I think he's gone a little overboard with it in this case. I'd rather him be open about his opinions than keeping them a secret. I'll defend anyone's free speech even if I don't like it. The world needs more free speech, not less. If our feelings get hurt by folks not liking our audio work, then we are surely in the wrong business! Anyway, I still don't think super-duper expensive monitors are really worth the cost. Some don't like the monitors I've chosen for myself either. I know dudes who make hits on 400$ beat up NS10's and think my 5K$ monitors are complete overkill. We're all going to have our own likes and dislikes and that's just life. I’ve been a professional musician creator educator for 40 years …. I’ve been very lucky and very successful at it - I’m very grateful. And in my time I have learnt - all art has validity. I’ve never been interested in technicians, there’s always someone who’s “technically” better. Faster drum roll Faster sweep picking Wider range Faster fingers Bigger balls I’ve always loved soul - heart and soul. And I hear that and celebrate that in everyone who has a voice and something to say. The idea of “pissing” on someone’s else’s creative output goes against every reason I got into music from when I was 12 years old. Yes, at the top it’s competitive, but that end of the world sorts itself out without anyone ever needing to upset anyone else. I’m somewhat shocked by this thread happening here on RGO, this has always been a friendly supportive place to post and share. I hope we can quickly get back to the gentle ebb and flow of friendly posts and no more stormy weather. |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 14, 2024 16:08:56 GMT -6
so, are you keeping the core 59s? love mine lol For now at least, I think my ears over years have gotten a bit more sensitive to high frequencies so I'll eventually swap them out. It's more of a me thing rather than a monitor thing per se.. You could do the tissue over the tweeter think like cats did with NS10s.  |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 14, 2024 20:15:35 GMT -6
Do you know what, Johnkenn . This entire thread should just be deleted, locked or something, what a mess in general. Let's start again with sunnier sky's.. |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 15, 2024 7:57:14 GMT -6
The idea of “pissing” on someone’s else’s creative output goes against every reason I got into music from when I was 12 years old. I’m somewhat shocked by this thread happening here on RGO, this has always been a friendly supportive place to post and share. I hope we can quickly get back to the gentle ebb and flow of friendly posts and no more stormy weather. This is the last I'll say on the subject after some reflection, in engineering we don't allow potentially dangerous designs out the door just to spare people's feelings as the impact could be serious. We'd politely assist and ask them to redesign the solution, we constantly review as a team (where we do criticise) to ensure products meet customer requirements. Music isn't as potentially damaging, it is far more personal and completely open to subjectivity. However I see constructive criticism as a gift, a point at which we (or at least I) can evolve outside of my own bubble, sometimes we (or I) don't even understand that there's an issue until it surfaces. That's generally why bands or producers create excellent works, team effort and all that.
Whilst I'll admit in a heartbeat there's 100% better ways to go about it than half read phone posts late at night (yes Tbone was 100% correct about tact), it grieves me to see that a fundamental part of our own learning and evolution recieves this sort of pushback. It became illogical, infactual and in area's somewhat petty, this certainly wasn't from just me either. Here's the thing with opinion's you always have the option to ignore them, everyone has them and it can become like noise. Also their opinion's might not always be correct as in this instance with Svart and myself (I was way off). However it's mind boggling to instantly reject anything that could serve to benefit in the long term.
So we might not appreciate it on this forum, fair enough but I will always appreciate constructive criticism from those who care enough to spend their free time helping me. It's in my book illogical not to. Don't get me wrong, some of the early day Purple site feedback of pack your bags and give up was in no way helpful but my intent is never to just be mean, I truly do want to help where I can. Again, better ways to go about it and I agree whole heartedly. As for the rest I'll never, ever agree with this ethos just like Svart as I find it fundamentally damaging. YMMV, I respect your opinion too and we can agree to disagree, that's the beauty of it.
I've become a bit too familiar I believe, that stops now. Okay, shall we move on?
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Post by noob on Mar 15, 2024 8:29:37 GMT -6
Everyone just take a big deep breath and relax. We all know who the best mixing engineer on the site is... (me obviously!) So in retrospect, I should be choosing which speakers you buy Shadow. ATC SCM50's?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 15, 2024 9:12:20 GMT -6
Ok. Let’s move on and get back to speakers. I think the issue here was that the advice was unsolicited.
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 15, 2024 9:47:34 GMT -6
Ok. Let’s move on and get back to speakers. I think the issue here was that the advice was unsolicited. Noted. |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 15, 2024 11:32:35 GMT -6
Everyone just take a big deep breath and relax. We all know who the best mixing engineer on the site is... (me obviously!) So in retrospect, I should be choosing which speakers you buy Shadow. ATC SCM50's? Also noted, I'll come to you for advice in the future  ..
After all of this I've come around to Svart's way of thinking anyway, I have been doing a lot of music related audio over the past 20 years even if it wasn't my own personal recordings. Within that time monitors like the LYD 48's have been perfectly sufficient, in a way a modicum of lesser clarity enabled you to work with them for longer. I've tried the ATC SCM100's against the Core 59s, I've just added to the expensive monitor list with the Geithain RL934k's.
For me, there isn't that much difference between them in my particular room. They all sound fantastic but far from polar opposites, we have IMO really hit the threshold of diminishing returns with the Core's. The only issue is both the ATC's and Geithain's are easier to work with for longer periods of time and as I am sensitive to HF's it's important to me. Whether that's worth 2.5X the cost of my Core's? That's still the part I'm mulling over, it's a bit of a moot point anyway at the moment because both the Gethain's and ATC's are way too large for my room (I have another which would work but it's temporary). I'm still thinking a B pair of RL906's, I'll give the bog roll approach a good testing out first though.
Question is quilted or double quilted?
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Post by recordingengineer on Mar 15, 2024 11:35:00 GMT -6
I will also say, what I’ve found interesting over the years, is that with my ADAMS S3As I had for 13 or 14 years and with the PMC TwoTwo8s at the studio now, with genres where the kick is extremely-heavy and prominent, it’s right when the speakers are cranked, it’s loud (though not that loud, really, because the kick is using-up all the available energy), you feel as though you want to turn it up a little more, because it’s sounding so good, but the overload-indicators on the speakers go off. Doh!
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