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Post by nick8801 on Mar 12, 2024 16:18:12 GMT -6
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 12, 2024 17:04:58 GMT -6
I spoke to the Geithain disti, you probably know John from the purple site. Super cool person and very knowledgable, I've been tempted to try out a 934K demo pair (they start at 30Hz so full range and these are proper coaxial's with cardioid bass).. I think the issue is I'm going to really like them. After my obvious and vocal love of all things ATC. I must say I do really like working with coaxial monitors. I remember using a pair of Tannoy's back in the 80's! Thing about Coaxial's is they absolutely do not need time domain correction, the Geithain's for example were made to work in broadcast van's and that's not exactly an ideal acoustic situation. First time I heard Coax's were the Equator D5's and even in my old crappy room (with a lot of treatment mind due) imaging was ridiculous. A properly setup 3-way active in a decent room can do the same but you can't pretty much move over to L channel and still get the full image. Setup for a Coax is essentially point them at you and done (within reason of course)..
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 12, 2024 18:26:12 GMT -6
RL 934K's are on their way, also enquired about the D&D 8C studio.
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Post by Ward on Mar 12, 2024 19:10:32 GMT -6
I spoke to the Geithain disti, you probably know John from the purple site. Super cool person and very knowledgable, I've been tempted to try out a 934K demo pair (they start at 30Hz so full range and these are proper coaxial's with cardioid bass).. I think the issue is I'm going to really like them. After my obvious and vocal love of all things ATC. I must say I do really like working with coaxial monitors. I remember using a pair of Tannoy's back in the 80's! Don't know if you've seen many pictures of my control room, but I rely on 90s Tannoy System 215dmt mark2s and System 12 mark 2s for all my tracking. Love those big gray boxes! |
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Post by Dan on Mar 12, 2024 20:22:45 GMT -6
After my obvious and vocal love of all things ATC. I must say I do really like working with coaxial monitors. I remember using a pair of Tannoy's back in the 80's! Don't know if you've seen many pictures of my control room, but I rely on 90s Tannoy System 215dmt mark2s and System 12 mark 2s for all my tracking. Love those big gray boxes! Rip Tannoy! The Precisions with the super tweeters were good. Goddamn Behringer. |
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Post by Ward on Mar 12, 2024 20:43:12 GMT -6
Don't know if you've seen many pictures of my control room, but I rely on 90s Tannoy System 215dmt mark2s and System 12 mark 2s for all my tracking. Love those big gray boxes! Rip Tannoy! The Precisions with the super tweeters were good. Goddamn Behringer. I have even harsher words for the B-word company |
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Post by Dan on Mar 12, 2024 20:57:44 GMT -6
Rip Tannoy! The Precisions with the super tweeters were good. Goddamn Behringer. I have even harsher words for the B-word company email sent to not pollute John’s site |
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Post by svart on Mar 13, 2024 8:26:23 GMT -6
I don't really have anything constructive to add..
But I genuinely cannot imagine monitors costing 20K that are actually scientifically better than monitors costing 5K. I really can't. I've heard audiophile systems that cost 50K+ and I objectively don't hear the differences between them and a 5K setup. I imagine it's the same type of arrangement, that 15K more is somehow 3x better despite me not being able to easily hear the difference.
It's your money though.
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Post by noob on Mar 13, 2024 8:27:27 GMT -6
Let's goooo Shadow I'm hype for you to get some new monitors. Keep us updated! Personally I would go with ATC in that range but there's plenty of amazing choices.
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Post by noob on Mar 13, 2024 8:30:26 GMT -6
I don't really have anything constructive to add.. But I genuinely cannot imagine monitors costing 20K that are actually scientifically better than monitors costing 5K. I really can't. I've heard audiophile systems that cost 50K+ and I objectively don't hear the differences between them and a 5K setup. I imagine it's the same type of arrangement, that 15K more is somehow 3x better despite me not being able to easily hear the difference. It's your money though. But I think a large part of that is the room and acoustic setup, not the monitors. I've heard some high end systems that have incredible detail and accuracy you just don't hear on other systems, specifically ATC SCM50. |
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Post by svart on Mar 13, 2024 8:44:47 GMT -6
I don't really have anything constructive to add.. But I genuinely cannot imagine monitors costing 20K that are actually scientifically better than monitors costing 5K. I really can't. I've heard audiophile systems that cost 50K+ and I objectively don't hear the differences between them and a 5K setup. I imagine it's the same type of arrangement, that 15K more is somehow 3x better despite me not being able to easily hear the difference. It's your money though. But I think a large part of that is the room and acoustic setup, not the monitors. I've heard some high end systems that have incredible detail and accuracy you just don't hear on other systems, specifically ATC SCM50. Only to listen to something recorded with what's likely to be gear filled with "cheap" opamps and mixed on NS-10s...? |
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Post by noob on Mar 13, 2024 8:48:09 GMT -6
But I think a large part of that is the room and acoustic setup, not the monitors. I've heard some high end systems that have incredible detail and accuracy you just don't hear on other systems, specifically ATC SCM50. Only to listen to something recorded with what's likely to be gear filled with "cheap" opamps and mixed on NS-10s...? Haha, I've never found NS10s useful without full range monitors to reference, but that's just me. I think the draw of monitors like the ATC 50s is how fast you can go from production to final mix because nothing is hidden. It's almost overwhelming at first, but then once you learn them you don't even need any other system to reference. Vs something like NS10s where you almost always need to check it on other systems to make sure you're not messing up the low end or high end. You're right of course, recording methods will never be perfect, but that doesn't mean the final mix shouldn't be close!! |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 13, 2024 9:29:36 GMT -6
I don't really have anything constructive to add.. But I genuinely cannot imagine monitors costing 20K that are actually scientifically better than monitors costing 5K. I really can't. It's your money though. I'm well past the point of caring about scientific within reason. We've both chased that dragon Svart and going by stastics everyone should have a pair of Genelec 8351's or KH310's. Although in my room, with my setup (corrected & analysed or freeform) I could not get them to the same performance, presentation, clarity or accuracy as the Dyn's. Although why should they perform as well?
The Neumann's are a cheap(ish) sealed cab non full range 8" woofer monitor and we all know that speakers are generally the weakest link in any chain (distortion alone), generally the way to get around this is one / two subs? Although that comes with their own cost & complexities, or the other option is big monitors with 12 inch drivers using complex technologies like cardioid dispersion or DSP integrated correction (in the case of the D&D 8C's both).
I'll ask you now, have you actually heard Geithain's, ATC's, D&D's or the Dynaudio Core 59's in a spare no expense acoustically designed room? Believe me, it can get much, much better than some Neumann's. Now I ain't sayin for a minute that the KH310's aren't the perfect solution for someone and I might be barking up the wrong tree here. The issue with the Dyn's is you get too much clarity, detail, transient information etc. coming from an absolutely wide phantom stage. It's like five people talking to you at the same time in a half circle, plus they are a bit shrill which makes it even worse. I could actually be looking for something "less", not quite as "much" in general because it's impressive for the first hour but six hours into a mix and I feel like I'm having a migraine.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2024 10:51:49 GMT -6
Rip Tannoy! The Precisions with the super tweeters were good. Goddamn Behringer. I have even harsher words for the B-word company Fane building drivers for Tannoy, it’s simply wrong. While I was never a fan of the Real Tannoy HF, it was certainly better than Fane! |
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Post by svart on Mar 13, 2024 11:03:15 GMT -6
I don't really have anything constructive to add.. But I genuinely cannot imagine monitors costing 20K that are actually scientifically better than monitors costing 5K. I really can't. It's your money though. I'm well past the point of caring about scientific within reason. We've both chased that dragon Svart and going by stastics everyone should have a pair of Genelec 8351's or KH310's. Although in my room, with my setup (corrected & analysed or freeform) I could not get them to the same performance, presentation, clarity or accuracy as the Dyn's. Although why should they perform as well?
The Neumann's are a cheap(ish) sealed cab non full range 8" woofer monitor and we all know that speakers are generally the weakest link in any chain (distortion alone), generally the way to get around this is one / two subs? Although that comes with their own cost & complexities, or the other option is big monitors with 12 inch drivers using complex technologies like cardioid dispersion or DSP integrated correction (in the case of the D&D 8C's both).
I'll ask you now, have you actually heard Geithain's, ATC's, D&D's or the Dynaudio Core 59's in a spare no expense acoustically designed room? Believe me, it can get much, much better than some Neumann's. Now I ain't sayin for a minute that the KH310's aren't the perfect solution for someone and I might be barking up the wrong tree here. The issue with the Dyn's is you get too much clarity, detail, transient information etc. coming from an absolutely wide phantom stage. It's like five people talking to you at the same time in a half circle, plus they are a bit shrill which makes it even worse. I could actually be looking for something "less", not quite as "much" in general because it's impressive for the first hour but six hours into a mix and I feel like I'm having a migraine.
Yes I have. Listened to ATCs in Doppler(RIP) and Blackbird a few times over the years. Anyway, like I said, it's your money. Have fun with it. I have yet to hear more than a few % difference in speakers that cost manyfold more, so it's just not for me. Have you thought that maybe the things you're hearing and comparing on the Dyns aren't actually more accurate, but actually less accurate than other speakers but you simply prefer them? |
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Post by recordingengineer on Mar 13, 2024 11:18:44 GMT -6
I don't really have anything constructive to add.. But I genuinely cannot imagine monitors costing 20K that are actually scientifically better than monitors costing 5K. I really can't. I've heard audiophile systems that cost 50K+ and I objectively don't hear the differences between them and a 5K setup. I imagine it's the same type of arrangement, that 15K more is somehow 3x better despite me not being able to easily hear the difference. It's your money though. For me, it’s a matter of how much the entire monitoring system can handle what I throw at it, at the SPL anyone may desire in the room, at any given time. All depending, plenty of great $5k-$10k systems will fold on me; usually due to the amount of bass I’m feeding them. |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 13, 2024 11:28:37 GMT -6
Yes I have. Listened to ATCs in Doppler(RIP) and Blackbird a few times over the years. Anyway, like I said, it's your money. Have fun with it. I have yet to hear more than a few % difference in speakers that cost manyfold more, so it's just not for me. Have you thought that maybe the things you're hearing and comparing on the Dyns aren't actually more accurate, but actually less accurate than other speakers but you simply prefer them? I promise I'm not being cantankerous or confrontational here, it's a shit ton of money lol. I need to make sure I've got it straight in my head and that I ingest / debate the viewpoints of others to come up with a solution. This is not something I'm going to just run at..
On the Dyn's, nah I've measured them with REW and they do very well in my room. I've also put them through ARC etc. and the voicing / DSP / design is just very different and I've asked Dyn about it. Simply put they were designed to be this way whether you like it or not. What I don't get here is I'm pretty much on board with most things being interchangeable, out of a massive list of converters for example most don't matter to me, in a dry LDC test with mic's over $500.00 it takes something intentionally different for me to really care. Nowaday's it's rare to come across a pinchy upper mid annoying mic, although I do tend to stay away from "vintage" so that's half the mic's out the door already.
However, monitors have always been to me like a completely different vocalist in a different room. The voicing's alone seperate them wildly, I've never heard any two sets of monitors that even come remotely close to a few percent and it doesn't matter if they've been time or frequency corrected either, this is usually in rooms with shed loads of designed treatment. I guess the question is why?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2024 11:35:10 GMT -6
I don't really have anything constructive to add.. But I genuinely cannot imagine monitors costing 20K that are actually scientifically better than monitors costing 5K. I really can't. I've heard audiophile systems that cost 50K+ and I objectively don't hear the differences between them and a 5K setup. I imagine it's the same type of arrangement, that 15K more is somehow 3x better despite me not being able to easily hear the difference. It's your money though. For me, it’s a matter of how much the entire monitoring system can handle what I throw at it, at the SPL anyone may desire in the room, at any given time. All depending, plenty of great $5k-$10k systems will fold on me; usually due to the amount of bass I’m feeding them. High SPL, High performance LF is expensive, first you need a room that can handle it, then you need the drivers and boxes that can produce it, then the power to power them, the power to power the amps and the processing. This statement would get me band from the Audiophile world, but there are very few turnkey systems that can do 20HZ well without significant professional Tweaking. OH we can’t forget the inevitable clash between your room guy and your speaker guy. It always surprises me how few people understand what made the great sounding custom mains sound better than the rest wasn’t the components but the actual set up. For instance as much as I love Quested, I could not Justify a New custom large scale Quested Mains without Roger doing setup or The guy on eBay who sells “ Bigs” his designs are pretty simple by the books designs , what will make or break them is setup. |
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Post by svart on Mar 13, 2024 11:51:21 GMT -6
I don't really have anything constructive to add.. But I genuinely cannot imagine monitors costing 20K that are actually scientifically better than monitors costing 5K. I really can't. I've heard audiophile systems that cost 50K+ and I objectively don't hear the differences between them and a 5K setup. I imagine it's the same type of arrangement, that 15K more is somehow 3x better despite me not being able to easily hear the difference. It's your money though. For me, it’s a matter of how much the entire monitoring system can handle what I throw at it, at the SPL anyone may desire in the room, at any given time. All depending, plenty of great $5k-$10k systems will fold on me; usually due to the amount of bass I’m feeding them. Horses for courses I suppose. I also can't monitor at high levels or my ears get blown out for the day. I'm barely above speaking volume when monitoring and I won't turn it up beyond that. Even watching movies or whatever, I barely turn it up to hear the voices clearly and then that's good enough. I rather don't like the ball-shaking bass some folks have dialed up. |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 13, 2024 12:12:04 GMT -6
Well, anyway I'll find out tomorrow. Pair of $15.5K monitors on their way tomorrow, they'll either blow me away or I'll be seriously underwhelmed. Either way, I'll know where I stand..
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Post by nick8801 on Mar 13, 2024 12:37:54 GMT -6
Well, anyway I'll find out tomorrow. Pair of $15.5K monitors on their way tomorrow, they'll either blow me away or I'll be seriously underwhelmed. Either way, I'll know where I stand.. What did you order? |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 13, 2024 13:19:09 GMT -6
Well, anyway I'll find out tomorrow. Pair of $15.5K monitors on their way tomorrow, they'll either blow me away or I'll be seriously underwhelmed. Either way, I'll know where I stand.. What did you order? In the UK if you have a good purchase record you just demo whatever you want and it’s a bit dangerous to be fair. I rang up a day ago and said can I have some 15k speakers please.. They’re like yeah it will be here on Thursday. Oh these are the RL934k’s the top end of Geithain. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2024 14:01:50 GMT -6
In the UK if you have a good purchase record you just demo whatever you want and it’s a bit dangerous to be fair. I rang up a day ago and said can I have some 15k speakers please.. They’re like yeah it will be here on Thursday. Oh these are the RL934k’s the top end of Geithain. To be fair Danny at 17 a high end consumer dealer left me alone in the demo room with a set of at the time $32,000 worth of Infinity IRS speakers, $ 20K of Conrad Johnson electronics a $8K turntable, ( OK he thought it was brilliant that I used the unused Tape loop as a mute), this was 1985 dollars! |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 13, 2024 14:05:38 GMT -6
In the UK if you have a good purchase record you just demo whatever you want and it’s a bit dangerous to be fair. I rang up a day ago and said can I have some 15k speakers please.. They’re like yeah it will be here on Thursday. Oh these are the RL934k’s the top end of Geithain. To be fair Danny at 17 a high end consumer dealer left me alone in the demo room with a set of at the time $32,000 worth of Infinity IRS speakers, $ 20K of Conrad Johnson electronics a $8K turntable, ( OK he thought it was brilliant that I used the unused Tape loop as a mute), this was 1985 dollars! Yeah but this isn’t a demo room I get them in my own studio for two weeks. It’s not odd, these were in Cornwall for two weeks before me.. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 13, 2024 16:30:44 GMT -6
But I think a large part of that is the room and acoustic setup, not the monitors. I've heard some high end systems that have incredible detail and accuracy you just don't hear on other systems, specifically ATC SCM50. Only to listen to something recorded with what's likely to be gear filled with "cheap" opamps and mixed on NS-10s...? The cheap opamps in the consoles are way better than what's in prosumer garbage today. The NS10s were powered by amplifiers mostly way better than what's in our monitors. |
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