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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 5, 2024 15:56:24 GMT -6
I'm really confused on this point. I've spent the last few weeks listening to the indie-folk and acoustic singer-songwriter playlists and as well as just kind of asking around my network to see what's popular. The thing they all have in common to me is that they aren't folk or acoustic. They all seem to have loads of instrumentation and really just sound like kind of "chill" indie-rock on the one hand or laid back country on the other.
Nothing wrong with either of those things of course, I actually like a lot of what I've heard.
But I thought I would at least find SOMETHING that was more in the vein of like an early James Taylor or Dylan or even early Ani DiFranco. It seems that people don't make records with just singing and guitar.
Why not?
I'm asking because I'm toying with the idea of branching out to do more solo singer-songwriter stuff myself (for a variety of reasons but king of them being logistics... mid level clubs pay the same as they did 20 years ago but shit costs twice as much, can't pay my bands consistently).
I kind of liked the idea of just recording really really stripped down stuff. Like in the vein of Nebraska or even like a Mance Lipscomb or Woody Guthrie record or something. But I was pretty surprised to find a grand total of zero of that anywhere I looked.
Sooo..... why? I have a few theories but I figure you guys probably come in contact with more so called "folk" than I do. Here are my theories.
1) People don't like albums like that.
I really hope this isn't it because I do and that would be a bummer. I also doubt this is true because solo guitar/singer performances totally blow up the social networks. Seems weird that people would share the crap out of a song on YouTube and then demand that the very same song have a drum machine and 42,000 layers of backing vocals on the album.
2) So called folk singers are folk singers because they don't have a band, not because they like playing acoustic and solo
Under this theory these folks get in the studio and are like FINALLY I can do what I always wanted to with this song. This would make sense. It wouldn't apply in my case so it would also make sense for why I can't understand it.
3) So called folk singers are really just songwriters who don't know how to arrange a song
Similar to the above. Under this theory the songwriter actually grew up listening to Sunny Day Real Estate or somesuch and doesn't actually like the stuff they're playing. Once they get in the studio a great producer helps them flesh it out.
4) Some sort of ego thing
Gotta prove they're great musicians by showing arrangement chops. If they just play the song like they do on their acoustic tour, nobody will think they're a musical genius.
What do you guys think?
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 5, 2024 15:59:24 GMT -6
Ooohh.. I have a 5th theory. This one might have legs.
They recognize that they can't get a good enough quality at home. So they book a studio (smart) but then they decide that they might as well make the most of their time in the studio by filling up the song with lots of parts (not smart?). Kind of like "well I'm not paying $500 per day to have some dude throw up a mic while I strum a guitar, I'm getting my money's worth!"
Sort of like overeating at a buffet.
Whereas in the golden eras someone like James Taylor isn't worried about "getting the most out of the studio."
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Post by dok on Mar 5, 2024 16:05:17 GMT -6
I'm finishing up one of those myself right now. Some songs have more instrumentation than just me and a guitar but that was the general sentiment behind making this, and it branched out from there. Couldn't tell you if it's any good, though.  |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 5, 2024 16:09:43 GMT -6
This is quite an old song now (2006) but Alexi Murdoch (Breathe) is a very bare bones acoustic sorta "folksy" thing that was rather popular, it even got re-featured as a track on Stargate Universe. However it's not labelled as such, it's just "alt" music and I think that's part of the problem. Alternative music can mean just about anything really so if I was just generally looking I'd have never found it.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 5, 2024 16:15:49 GMT -6
This is quite an old song now (2006) but Alexi Murdoch (Breathe) is a very bare bones acoustic sorta "folksy" thing that was rather popular, it even got re-featured as a track on Stargate Universe. However it's not labelled as such, it's just "alt" music and I think that's part of the problem. Alternative music can mean just about anything really so if I was just generally looking I'd have never found it. Oh I remember Alexi Murdoch! I saw him at SXSW at Cactus Cafe right around that time and he was mesmerizing. See that's a great example. I feel like nowadays they would take his songs and massively overarrange them. But he was spellbinding live, why mess with it? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 5, 2024 16:17:02 GMT -6
I'm finishing up one of those myself right now. Some songs have more instrumentation than just me and a guitar but that was the general sentiment behind making this, and it branched out from there. Couldn't tell you if it's any good, though. Got anything you can share? |
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Post by jacobamerritt on Mar 5, 2024 16:57:09 GMT -6
I'm curious, where are you finding these playlists? I feel like plenty of folks play just acoustic and sing.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 5, 2024 17:00:57 GMT -6
First three or four albums are just them as a duo.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 5, 2024 20:33:11 GMT -6
Recently saw Ocie Elliot in concert - husband/wife, he plays guitar, she sometimes plays a pad of some sort on a keyboard (but often plays nothing but an occasional tambourine). Listening to their records a bit, the records are often just as stripped back as the live show. Check out "Down By the Water," "Free," etc.
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Post by christopher on Mar 5, 2024 20:44:54 GMT -6
Ooohh.. I have a 5th theory. This one might have legs. They recognize that they can't get a good enough quality at home. So they book a studio (smart) but then they decide that they might as well make the most of their time in the studio by filling up the song with lots of parts (not smart?). Kind of like "well I'm not paying $500 per day to have some dude throw up a mic while I strum a guitar, I'm getting my money's worth!" Sort of like overeating at a buffet. Whereas in the golden eras someone like James Taylor isn't worried about "getting the most out of the studio." My feeling has long been is the genre was simply easier with tape. Punk rock, same thing. Those once “just smoke and hit record” genres just sort of died an immediate death, we’ve been figuring it out how to get it back.. it’s not easy! |
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Post by poppaflavor on Mar 5, 2024 21:23:10 GMT -6
Could it also be that today popular culture in general just isn't representative of the values and ideals of traditional folk music?
When I think about the folk songs I love...
like PP&M's Where Have All The Flowers Gone, or Kingston Trio's Tom Dooley or Cisco Houston's Passing Through (no other version holds a candle) or Ramblin' Jack Elliot's Railroad Bill...
I'm always stunned to my very core at the powerful portent of their premises.
Seems that such topics are today replaced by trite tropes that don't dare tread into the searingly soul searching territories true folk artists boldly trod before.
I don't know, maybe songs such as these are still out there but I'm just not getting exposed to the genuine gadflys? The thorns in The Man's side?
I long for new songs that, like those of long ago, have lovingly lilting lyrics that are at first beautifully beguiling but ultimately end up wracking my conscience once I've settled into sleep in the stillness of night.
These songs used to be the core of folk, but weren't limited to folk. Jimmy Cliff's Vietnam is equally heart-rending in its starkness.
Doesn't seem that soul searching and empathy for the plight of humanity wailing into the wind while we slowly shuffle off this mortal coil is really a 'thing' anymore. So how could songs built on this understanding still be made?
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 5, 2024 21:31:08 GMT -6
Ooohh.. I have a 5th theory. This one might have legs. They recognize that they can't get a good enough quality at home. So they book a studio (smart) but then they decide that they might as well make the most of their time in the studio by filling up the song with lots of parts (not smart?). Kind of like "well I'm not paying $500 per day to have some dude throw up a mic while I strum a guitar, I'm getting my money's worth!" Sort of like overeating at a buffet. Whereas in the golden eras someone like James Taylor isn't worried about "getting the most out of the studio." My feeling has long been is the genre was simply easier with tape. Punk rock, same thing. Those once “just smoke and hit record” genres just sort of died an immediate death, we’ve been figuring it out how to get it back.. it’s not easy! Yeah, and different audience expectations, too. Dylan sang so out of tune on some of those records, but it didn't matter - lots of people had out of tune vocals back then (Ruby Tuesday, anyone?). Nobody has out of tune vocals these days. I would prefer out of tune to the shiny robot singing most of the time. I think part of the problem today is that everything is a performance and an affectation now. It's very hard to find true, earnest artists who aren't thinking about their image and their "personal brand." Adding a bunch of instruments to a song that might not need it is in some ways an act of covering up the true root of who they are. Stripped down is scary. There's nothing to hide behind. The state motto of North Carolina (my home state) is Esse quam videri - "To be, rather than to seem." I feel like most of popular culture these days is the exact opposite: to seem, rather than to be. Now to be fair, back in the 80s and 90s - when record labels were paying for records to be made - it definitely happened on occasion that an artist would want to record something more simply and straightforwardly and the label would refuse it out of concern that they couldn't get airplay with something that stripped down. |
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Post by damoongo on Mar 5, 2024 22:11:59 GMT -6
Recently saw Ocie Elliot in concert - husband/wife, he plays guitar, she sometimes plays a pad of some sort on a keyboard (but often plays nothing but an occasional tambourine). Listening to their records a bit, the records are often just as stripped back as the live show. Check out "Down By the Water," "Free," etc. Yeah, they are great. I worked on that record (with “Free” on it). I make a lot of records that are much more dense, but Ocie Elliott like to keep it really bare and it’s very effective. Especially if you have good songs, like them. (Maybe that’s part of the problem these days too…?) Anyway, we start another record next week…. |
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Post by dok on Mar 5, 2024 23:21:08 GMT -6
by the way I'd put Gillian Welch and David Rawlings squarely in this category. And you can't get better performances or recordings than that!
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 6, 2024 8:58:49 GMT -6
I'm curious, where are you finding these playlists? I feel like plenty of folks play just acoustic and sing. If you go to Spotify and just search for "indie-folk" or "best of indie folk 2023" or "acoustic singer-songwriter" I think you'll be surprised at how few of them are really solo performances (if any). And I'm not expecting that they ALL would be and wouldn.t I even want that. But I thought it would be more prevalent than it is. I like a lot of stuff on those lists, just kinda seems like nobody records straight solo acoustic albums anymore (or at least rarely) and wondering if it's market driven or artist driven. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 6, 2024 9:04:29 GMT -6
My feeling has long been is the genre was simply easier with tape. Punk rock, same thing. Those once “just smoke and hit record” genres just sort of died an immediate death, we’ve been figuring it out how to get it back.. it’s not easy! Yeah, and different audience expectations, too. Dylan sang so out of tune on some of those records, but it didn't matter - lots of people had out of tune vocals back then (Ruby Tuesday, anyone?). Nobody has out of tune vocals these days. I would prefer out of tune to the shiny robot singing most of the time. I think part of the problem today is that everything is a performance and an affectation now. It's very hard to find true, earnest artists who aren't thinking about their image and their "personal brand." Adding a bunch of instruments to a song that might not need it is in some ways an act of covering up the true root of who they are. Stripped down is scary. There's nothing to hide behind. The state motto of North Carolina (my home state) is Esse quam videri - "To be, rather than to seem." I feel like most of popular culture these days is the exact opposite: to seem, rather than to be. Now to be fair, back in the 80s and 90s - when record labels were paying for records to be made - it definitely happened on occasion that an artist would want to record something more simply and straightforwardly and the label would refuse it out of concern that they couldn't get airplay with something that stripped down. A lot of good comments here. So is our consensus here that artists are driving this and not the market? To whatever degree there's a market for anything that isn't intended for 19 year olds taking molly in a club, is there a market for stripped down solo recordings if they're good? I do think there's something to this as well as someone else's comment about the punk ethos being similar to the "grab the guitar and play" ethos. This fits one of my theories above which is that really the performers don't stand up well to the exposure or a raw recording and the songs aren't good enough. I've already a made a playlist with y'all's suggestions and am gonna be listening in the car today. Gillian Welch, duh. Forgot about her. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 6, 2024 9:09:50 GMT -6
Yeah, and different audience expectations, too. Dylan sang so out of tune on some of those records, but it didn't matter - lots of people had out of tune vocals back then (Ruby Tuesday, anyone?). Nobody has out of tune vocals these days. I would prefer out of tune to the shiny robot singing most of the time. I think part of the problem today is that everything is a performance and an affectation now. It's very hard to find true, earnest artists who aren't thinking about their image and their "personal brand." Adding a bunch of instruments to a song that might not need it is in some ways an act of covering up the true root of who they are. Stripped down is scary. There's nothing to hide behind. The state motto of North Carolina (my home state) is Esse quam videri - "To be, rather than to seem." I feel like most of popular culture these days is the exact opposite: to seem, rather than to be. Now to be fair, back in the 80s and 90s - when record labels were paying for records to be made - it definitely happened on occasion that an artist would want to record something more simply and straightforwardly and the label would refuse it out of concern that they couldn't get airplay with something that stripped down. A lot of good comments here. So is our consensus here that artists are driving this and not the market? To whatever degree there's a market for anything that isn't intended for 19 year olds taking molly in a club, is there a market for stripped down solo recordings if they're good? I do think there's something to this as well as someone else's comment about the punk ethos being similar to the "grab the guitar and play" ethos. This fits one of my theories above which is that really the performers don't stand up well to the exposure or a raw recording and the songs aren't good enough. I've already a made a playlist with y'all's suggestions and am gonna be listening in the car today. Gillian Welch, duh. Forgot about her. Ever seen her live? I would love to, but haven't. Speaking of shows, catching anything cool for SXSW? Or playing yourself? |
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Post by Quint on Mar 6, 2024 9:12:45 GMT -6
Also, without any consideration of age, newness, or whatever, there is also John Prine, Colter Wall, and*
*I'll add some others when I think about it.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 6, 2024 9:14:04 GMT -6
A lot of good comments here. So is our consensus here that artists are driving this and not the market? To whatever degree there's a market for anything that isn't intended for 19 year olds taking molly in a club, is there a market for stripped down solo recordings if they're good? I do think there's something to this as well as someone else's comment about the punk ethos being similar to the "grab the guitar and play" ethos. This fits one of my theories above which is that really the performers don't stand up well to the exposure or a raw recording and the songs aren't good enough. I've already a made a playlist with y'all's suggestions and am gonna be listening in the car today. Gillian Welch, duh. Forgot about her. Ever seen her live? I would love to, but haven't. Speaking of shows, catching anything cool for SXSW? I've never seen her, no. I'd love to. I'm rolling freestyle for SXSW. Honestly I've been so busy working on my own record and two mixing projects that I haven't even looked at the schedule. I'm lending some backline gear to Radio East so I'll probably be hanging out there a bit. (Well, not technically lending but for the price they're "renting" it, might as well be. It's a friend, whaddya gonna do...) |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 6, 2024 9:16:34 GMT -6
Also, without any consideration of age, newness, or whatever, there is also John Prine, Colter Wall, and* *I'll add some others when I think about it. Yeah, lots of examples through the annals of time. But I'm specifically wondering about, say, the last 5 - 10 years and even more specifically if there's a market for this stuff. There's definitely a move towards stripped down music with the younger crowd that is driven (I think) by TikTok/Instagram/YouTube performances. I dropped by the Cactus Cafe singer-songwriter night last night for the first time in 10 years and, wow, it was like 80% college kids. Not at all what it used to be like. Really cool seeing probably two dozen kids in their early 20's or younger getting up there with acoustic guitars and playing songs they're writing. It was NOT like that when I first got here I'll tell you that. Something is definitely shifting. Which turns me back to my first question. So why don't the records sound like the viral hits? |
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Post by Quint on Mar 6, 2024 9:26:15 GMT -6
Ever seen her live? I would love to, but haven't. Speaking of shows, catching anything cool for SXSW? I've never seen her, no. I'd love to. I'm rolling freestyle for SXSW. Honestly I've been so busy working on my own record and two mixing projects that I haven't even looked at the schedule. I'm lending some backline gear to Radio East so I'll probably be hanging out there a bit. (Well, not technically lending but for the price they're "renting" it, might as well be. It's a friend, whaddya gonna do...) I haven't been to Radio East yet, but I was kicking around going to watch Protomartyr there tonight. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 6, 2024 9:27:18 GMT -6
Also, without any consideration of age, newness, or whatever, there is also John Prine, Colter Wall, and* *I'll add some others when I think about it. Yeah, lots of examples through the annals of time. But I'm specifically wondering about, say, the last 5 - 10 years and even more specifically if there's a market for this stuff. There's definitely a move towards stripped down music with the younger crowd that is driven (I think) by TikTok/Instagram/YouTube performances. I dropped by the Cactus Cafe singer-songwriter night last night for the first time in 10 years and, wow, it was like 80% college kids. Not at all what it used to be like. Really cool seeing probably two dozen kids in their early 20's or younger getting up there with acoustic guitars and playing songs they're writing. It was NOT like that when I first got here I'll tell you that. Something is definitely shifting. Which turns me back to my first question. So why don't the records sound like the viral hits? Colter Wall is new enough to be in that category. Also, though Tyler Childers has more full band stuff these days, he definitely used to do more of the sort of thing you're talking about, and he's fairly new. I know he's big with the age group you're talking about too. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 6, 2024 9:33:43 GMT -6
I've never seen her, no. I'd love to. I'm rolling freestyle for SXSW. Honestly I've been so busy working on my own record and two mixing projects that I haven't even looked at the schedule. I'm lending some backline gear to Radio East so I'll probably be hanging out there a bit. (Well, not technically lending but for the price they're "renting" it, might as well be. It's a friend, whaddya gonna do...) I haven't been to Radio East yet, but I was kicking around going to watch Protomartyr there tonight. Don't know if they use this rig for every show but last show I saw there they used an RND MBP at the end of the signal chain and it sounded incredible. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098 
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Post by ericn on Mar 6, 2024 9:45:53 GMT -6
It really depends on who is curating the playlist and their idea of folk. Plenty of people who keep it basic.
Typed while listening to Richard Thompson Acoustic Classics.
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Post by Quint on Mar 6, 2024 9:51:00 GMT -6
I haven't been to Radio East yet, but I was kicking around going to watch Protomartyr there tonight. Don't know if they use this rig for every show but last show I saw there they used an RND MBP at the end of the signal chain and it sounded incredible. Really? I wouldn't expect anything nearly that posh to be getting used at a place like that. Cool that they're doing it though. |
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