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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 6, 2024 9:52:37 GMT -6
It really depends on who is curating the playlist and their idea of folk. Plenty of people who keep it basic. Typed while listening to Richard Thompson Acoustic Classics. Now there's a guy who didn't need a stupid drum loop and a synth pad. Love his solo stuff! |
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Post by ericn on Mar 6, 2024 10:12:39 GMT -6
It really depends on who is curating the playlist and their idea of folk. Plenty of people who keep it basic. Typed while listening to Richard Thompson Acoustic Classics. Now there's a guy who didn't need a stupid drum loop and a synth pad. Love his solo stuff! So him solo live a couple of years ago as part of an “ Americana” series, yup the British Muslim, is Americana😁 |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Mar 6, 2024 10:13:01 GMT -6
Great posts, I myself been wondering about this also.
Sometime ago, I was thinking what happened to all the great acoustic singers songwriters?
I owned a small pub at the time, and had many, great acoustic musicians come thru and perform. It was amazing to see how powerful, a singer,
and a song could be, when performed solo.
And yet, like mentioned above, most of these artists, when putting their music down in a studio, would opt for a much bigger production, thus losing that intimate feeling I had when seeing them live.
So after having to move my studio, TWICE in the last few years ... and the normal biz of my studio,
I decided I would set out to capture these raw, powerful, and emotional performances by original artists, in unique locations.
Kinda like Alan Lomax did many, many years ago.
Although those recordings lacked in sonic quality, (because of the gear back then) they had the vibe for days!
My idea is to capture each of the performers in different acoustic spaces, using 1 x stereo mic (Josephson C700s)
and 1 camera.
I want to go as basic as I can, just documenting their performance.
Not sure of how it will be captured yet?
I bought a Apollo X4, and a Zoom F8N, to test this rig out and they worked beautifully,
but I might go for a Nagra VII, or even a rebuilt Nagra IV-S tape machine, and some other 4 channel preamps?
It all has to fit in one small Pelican case.
So we will see....
Did a few recordings as tests, and the results have been wonderful...
Plan to start this summer...
Too much good music out there, needs to be heard.
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Post by crillemannen on Mar 6, 2024 10:34:24 GMT -6
So if I where to Google or search in Spotify for heavy metal would I then get a 1000 different variations of Judas Priest and Black Sabbath? If I search for rock would I hear Hendrix copies? Probably not. Music evolves, so does styles and genres as well.
Sometimes that's a good thing sometimes you might not like it.
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Post by dok on Mar 6, 2024 10:55:11 GMT -6
I haven't been to Radio East yet, but I was kicking around going to watch Protomartyr there tonight. DO NOT MISS that show. They're incredible |
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Post by Quint on Mar 6, 2024 10:58:45 GMT -6
I haven't been to Radio East yet, but I was kicking around going to watch Protomartyr there tonight. DO NOT MISS that show. They're incredible Seen them three times. This would be number four. LOVE that band. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 6, 2024 11:14:51 GMT -6
I'm curious, where are you finding these playlists? I feel like plenty of folks play just acoustic and sing. If you go to Spotify and just search for "indie-folk" or "best of indie folk 2023" or "acoustic singer-songwriter" I think you'll be surprised at how few of them are really solo performances (if any). And I'm not expecting that they ALL would be and wouldn.t I even want that. But I thought it would be more prevalent than it is. I like a lot of stuff on those lists, just kinda seems like nobody records straight solo acoustic albums anymore (or at least rarely) and wondering if it's market driven or artist driven. I think indie folk is more geared in the direction of Mumford and sons, lumineers, etc. My girlfriend and I started an indie folk duo, but build out full productions for our songs. I’m mainly going in that direction because of our instrumental deficiencies I guess. I’m basically a beginner guitarist and she’s a mostly self taught pianist and singer. We’re not talented enough to be naked, so use the additional instruments to improve our songs. I imagine a lot of artists are in a similar boat. If we had the talent of the milk carton kids or the civil wars or something, things would be different. We’re also building out backing tracks of a mountain of covers to play along with live. She suffers from Parkinson’s disease, so if she’s having a flare up, we don’t have to rely on her hands and feet working at our performances. Basically, attempting to put together the best product we can while being somewhat limited. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 6, 2024 11:40:43 GMT -6
Also, been listening to this record a lot lately, lot of talent here that you might dig, even though it’s not just solo.
Post the playlist you created here for us too!
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Post by M57 on Mar 6, 2024 12:22:26 GMT -6
I don't know what folk is anymore. I'm admittedly not that familiar with or knowledgeable about it when it comes to folk's roots, other than a little bits of Guthrie and Dylan, and I'm sure there are many folks (pun intended) here who woud include many a country singer in the pantheon of folk musicians.
When I think of folk, I think of "my kind of folk," i.e, songwriters I listened to in my youth like K. Loggins, J Taylor, J. Mitchell C. Stevens, Eagles and CSN&Y. Yes, their music often veered in the direction of rock, but what made their music 'folk' to me was that the writing was generally acoustic guitar driven, and often the arrangements were very bare-bones ..though not necessarily, and most of the time the guitar was the instrument you 'heard.' Fleshing out the song was generally accomplished with harmonies, and as a result you could almost always sit around with your friends and a guitar, play mainly first position chords, and everyone would be able to easily grab a harmony part and sing along.
Interestingly, in the song-writing circles I spin in these days, we often post songs as 1+1's, i.e, just a vocal and solo instrument, and one of the more common discussion points involves deciding whether or not to flesh them out, or leave them as is.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 6, 2024 12:32:40 GMT -6
Great posts, I myself been wondering about this also. Sometime ago, I was thinking what happened to all the great acoustic singers songwriters? I owned a small pub at the time, and had many, great acoustic musicians come thru and perform. It was amazing to see how powerful, a singer, and a song could be, when performed solo. And yet, like mentioned above, most of these artists, when putting their music down in a studio, would opt for a much bigger production, thus losing that intimate feeling I had when seeing them live. So after having to move my studio, TWICE in the last few years ... and the normal biz of my studio, I decided I would set out to capture these raw, powerful, and emotional performances by original artists, in unique locations. Kinda like Alan Lomax did many, many years ago. Although those recordings lacked in sonic quality, (because of the gear back then) they had the vibe for days! My idea is to capture each of the performers in different acoustic spaces, using 1 x stereo mic (Josephson C700s) and 1 camera. I want to go as basic as I can, just documenting their performance. Not sure of how it will be captured yet? I bought a Apollo X4, and a Zoom F8N, to test this rig out and they worked beautifully, but I might go for a Nagra VII, or even a rebuilt Nagra IV-S tape machine, and some other 4 channel preamps? It all has to fit in one small Pelican case. So we will see.... Did a few recordings as tests, and the results have been wonderful... Plan to start this summer... Too much good music out there, needs to be heard. Love the idea but Paul I would consider 2 cameras 1 for close ups one for the basic shot. Much easier for a single operator and visually a little more entertaining with a second shot to switch to. |
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Post by chessparov on Mar 6, 2024 12:36:11 GMT -6
Very cool Thread. Ketchup before bed!  (Hey it's becoming a song already) Chris |
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Post by mjheck on Mar 6, 2024 13:18:42 GMT -6
Really great topic.
I too have wondered about this. An example that comes to mind for me is an artist like Noah Gunderson - someone who was really acoustic guitar and voice, or with his family doing acoustic music, who then evolved into more layered presentations. I got a chance to see him twice in Austin - once at Cactus Cafe in the former style and later at Antones in the latter - enjoyed them both, of course, but really did fall in love with the early stuff.
Two things come to mind as possibilities - at one point I was submitting music for sync possibilities- any time the arrangement was sparse, I often got the "sounds like a demo" comment. I would think about Patty Griffin's first album - the one that she released after rejecting the Nile Rogers produced version - and wonder if that would make it out the door today. I swear I even hear a siren pass by in "Let Him Fly." It's that open.
I was about to write that there is a tendency to want to mask the nakedness of ones on voice, but I think it might be more subtle thing than that. Whether we like it or not, we are exposed to music that has multiple hooks and refrains, production changes every four bars, just a lot of activity and I guess what used to be called ear candy. And I really like a lot of this stuff - I am not bitching - its is just a different kind of competition for attention. I think we all want to be heard, and consciously or unconsciously think a listener may not find palm muting and open strumming to be engaging enough through three choruses and verses.
JMH
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Post by doubledog on Mar 6, 2024 14:00:30 GMT -6
one of my bands (that I play in and book) started out saying we had folk roots - which was true but I could not advertise it as folk. Now I have to say "electric folk and Americana" (which are equally useless descriptions for any band... but I digress.). We are a 4 piece with loud guitars and drums. but the lead singer/songwriter definitely comes from that folk place. He starts out all of the songs as guitar/vocal. It's at that point that I usually tell him which songs we are going to make into a rock and roll song lol. It's that tried and true "campfire test' (if you can play it around the campfire, and it's a good song - then it's a good song!). And sometimes he will go play solo gigs too.
BTW, if I go looking for R&B, I want Sam & Dave, Aretha, you know... Rhythm & Blues! Nope, that's not what the spotifiers call R&B anymore. And I definitely never use those search term anymore (yuck).
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 6, 2024 14:03:43 GMT -6
Great posts, I myself been wondering about this also. Sometime ago, I was thinking what happened to all the great acoustic singers songwriters? I owned a small pub at the time, and had many, great acoustic musicians come thru and perform. It was amazing to see how powerful, a singer, and a song could be, when performed solo. And yet, like mentioned above, most of these artists, when putting their music down in a studio, would opt for a much bigger production, thus losing that intimate feeling I had when seeing them live. So after having to move my studio, TWICE in the last few years ... and the normal biz of my studio, I decided I would set out to capture these raw, powerful, and emotional performances by original artists, in unique locations. Kinda like Alan Lomax did many, many years ago. Although those recordings lacked in sonic quality, (because of the gear back then) they had the vibe for days! My idea is to capture each of the performers in different acoustic spaces, using 1 x stereo mic (Josephson C700s) and 1 camera. I want to go as basic as I can, just documenting their performance. Not sure of how it will be captured yet? I bought a Apollo X4, and a Zoom F8N, to test this rig out and they worked beautifully, but I might go for a Nagra VII, or even a rebuilt Nagra IV-S tape machine, and some other 4 channel preamps? It all has to fit in one small Pelican case. So we will see.... Did a few recordings as tests, and the results have been wonderful... Plan to start this summer... Too much good music out there, needs to be heard. I LOVE THIS IDEA!!! My dream is to open up a free studio in the downtown of the town in live in outside of Austin to do this very thing. Only rules would be you get a one hour session, you use all house gear, and you play your own music. You get a copy and I get a copy for archival (non monetary) purposes. I really think we're going to look back in 40 years an have a huge gap in recorded music if nobody takes this stuff off of TikTok and puts it into a lasting format. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 6, 2024 14:05:57 GMT -6
So if I where to Google or search in Spotify for heavy metal would I then get a 1000 different variations of Judas Priest and Black Sabbath? If I search for rock would I hear Hendrix copies? Probably not. Music evolves, so does styles and genres as well. Sometimes that's a good thing sometimes you might not like it. I actually do like the stuff I'm hearing, I'm just wondering where the other stuff is. This would be more like if all of a sudden there were no power trios. I would be wondering "hang on, are the musicians not interested in doing power trios or do people not go in for that type of thing in a record anymore?" But there are still power trios. In this case I'm exploring the disconnect between what people listen to online and what they listen to on records. It's odd to me that we are moving more towards acoustic, stripped down performances in terms of what goes "viral" but moving away from it in terms of what is "released". |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 6, 2024 14:06:55 GMT -6
If you go to Spotify and just search for "indie-folk" or "best of indie folk 2023" or "acoustic singer-songwriter" I think you'll be surprised at how few of them are really solo performances (if any). And I'm not expecting that they ALL would be and wouldn.t I even want that. But I thought it would be more prevalent than it is. I like a lot of stuff on those lists, just kinda seems like nobody records straight solo acoustic albums anymore (or at least rarely) and wondering if it's market driven or artist driven. I think indie folk is more geared in the direction of Mumford and sons, lumineers, etc. My girlfriend and I started an indie folk duo, but build out full productions for our songs. I’m mainly going in that direction because of our instrumental deficiencies I guess. I’m basically a beginner guitarist and she’s a mostly self taught pianist and singer. We’re not talented enough to be naked, so use the additional instruments to improve our songs. I imagine a lot of artists are in a similar boat. If we had the talent of the milk carton kids or the civil wars or something, things would be different. We’re also building out backing tracks of a mountain of covers to play along with live. She suffers from Parkinson’s disease, so if she’s having a flare up, we don’t have to rely on her hands and feet working at our performances. Basically, attempting to put together the best product we can while being somewhat limited. This is great by the way, nice track. Right up my alley in terms of the stuff I normally play and listen to. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 6, 2024 14:10:10 GMT -6
I don't know what folk is anymore. I'm admittedly not that familiar with or knowledgeable about it when it comes to folk's roots, other than a little bits of Guthrie and Dylan, and I'm sure there are many folks (pun intended) here who woud include many a country singer in the pantheon of folk musicians. When I think of folk, I think of "my kind of folk," i.e, songwriters I listened to in my youth like K. Loggins, J Taylor, J. Mitchell C. Stevens, Eagles and CSN&Y. Yes, their music often veered in the direction of rock, but what made their music 'folk' to me was that the writing was generally acoustic guitar driven, and often the arrangements were very bare-bones ..though not necessarily, and most of the time the guitar was the instrument you 'heard.' Fleshing out the song was generally accomplished with harmonies, and as a result you could almost always sit around with your friends and a guitar, play mainly first position chords, and everyone would be able to easily grab a harmony part and sing along. Interestingly, in the song-writing circles I spin in these days, we often post songs as 1+1's, i.e, just a vocal and solo instrument, and one of the more common discussion points involves deciding whether or not to flesh them out, or leave them as is. This is what I mean as well. To me "folk" music is music that can be played by "folks". You could make the case that punk falls into that category along with the simpler forms of rock and roll so let's add "generally acoustic." So a lot of the great music that passes as "folk" these days would be very difficult if not impossible to play in a campfire or living room setting. Not saying that the songs wouldn't sound good that way, just that the records aren't arranged like that. Take the new Sufjan Stevens for example, nobody is playing that stuff sitting around a fire (although it's a great record). |
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Post by jmoose on Mar 6, 2024 18:29:59 GMT -6
Interesting topic... absolutely have a few thoughts when I've got more time. Especially the whole "folk/bluegrass" vs "new grass" thing and modern genre labeling.
The first thing that comes to mind is that real folk musicians... the actual "campfire crowd" is somewhat scared of microphones and headphones. Traditional folk music is still very much a live, first hand experience and the recording studio is a completely foreign environment to them.
Several years ago an artist I worked with, known for children's music got connected with a local folk music association and started bringing these groups into my shop. He wanted to document the material and really, a few of them expressed interest in those more "fleshed out" and built productions. He's producing I'm engineering we got this!
The first real problem we had was getting usable takes. Nobody was used to staying on mic and holding positions... so levels, tones... everything was very random and that was a serious hurdle.
I can mic an acoustic & vocal as well as anyone else but if the singer picks their head up and starts projecting at the ceiling because that's what they do around the campfire..? Well... it is what it is.
Took a handful of sessions to weed all that out and achieve consistency. Easy enough. One problem with the built productions? Several were started but nobody, none of the players/writers had much interest in actually finishing the material. Pretty sure all of those were abandoned.
One probably billed out about 200 hours on 4 songs? I'd even say 91% complete. Session drums, electric guitars, pianos B3, lap steel... fiddles... all done. Thousands of dollars spent. Artist wanted to recut vocals and then mix. Never happened.
Whuz that old saying about horses and water..? If you build it they will come? Yeah. No. Maybe not.
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Post by Dan on Mar 6, 2024 20:28:27 GMT -6
So if I where to Google or search in Spotify for heavy metal would I then get a 1000 different variations of Judas Priest and Black Sabbath? If I search for rock would I hear Hendrix copies? Probably not. Music evolves, so does styles and genres as well. Sometimes that's a good thing sometimes you might not like it. Yes. You will get hundreds of Black Sabbath and Candlemass rip offs if you search for doom metal. You will get thousands of Metallica rip offs if you search for thrash metal. Death metal and black metal are more popular so there's more to rip off but they of course rip off just as bad as the rethrash bands. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 6, 2024 23:28:31 GMT -6
So if I where to Google or search in Spotify for heavy metal would I then get a 1000 different variations of Judas Priest and Black Sabbath? If I search for rock would I hear Hendrix copies? Probably not. Music evolves, so does styles and genres as well. Sometimes that's a good thing sometimes you might not like it. Yes. You will get hundreds of Black Sabbath and Candlemass rip offs if you search for doom metal. You will get thousands of Metallica rip offs if you search for thrash metal. Death metal and black metal are more popular so there's more to rip off but they of course rip off just as bad as the rethrash bands. Off topic. But if a quick walk through the halls of any rehearsal space in Austin is an indication, death metal bands have got to be the best rehearsed genre of any music. I swear 75% of rooms are hard-core technical metal bands. But weirdly there's like no venues for that type of music around here. |
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Post by niklas1073 on Mar 6, 2024 23:52:02 GMT -6
Really interesting topic. Considering the explosion in the acoustics market you would think there would be plenty but it’s true it’s not that common. I think that genre falls in the hands of of artists like Tyler Childers, Sierra Ferrel, Gillian Welch, Lillie Mae. Or at least a lot of their material is possible to execute guitar and vocal. But it’s true that purely singer songwriter is less common except for in very small releases.
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Post by bossanova on Mar 8, 2024 8:48:31 GMT -6
I'm another Austin-ite who occasionally plays in a band with a folkie lead singer-songwriter.
When she plays gigs solo it's definitely more of a traditional folk sound, but when you add in electric bass and electric keyboards (me), it definitely takes on more of a rock sound, even more so when we previously had a drummer.
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Post by jaba on Mar 8, 2024 9:46:40 GMT -6
I'd assume there's lots of stripped-down folk music but it's just not what in vogue at the moment. What people like (artists and consumers) is to hear the songs surrounded by some "modern" production. Most genres have a style that's more popular and others that are more traditional - country, metal, pop, etc.
Others mentioned Milk Carton Kids/ Gillian Welsh. Great examples of artists using traditional approaches (though both have beefed up their sounds a bit at times) but they're not the current darlings playing on the hip coffee shops' playlists.
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Post by christopher on Mar 8, 2024 9:49:43 GMT -6
This is an example of something of the typical sound I think of.
Guitar sounds like real wood, controlled, and delicate. Even though it sounds like it’s being played with force. It’s sweet and inviting. It’s not hard, jumpy, or biting, or shrill. It’s sort of like hearing someone play a real one where the distance in the air is evening it all out.
Voice doesn’t sound real, it sounds like a dream of what real is..
Both aren’t accurate, they are some sort of produced sound. Today it would be hard to find anyone who can get close
(I just realized in the YT feed there was that -Richmond- rich man thing that went viral.. so demand exists!)
Actually this might be better
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 8, 2024 10:15:34 GMT -6
This is an example of something of the typical sound I think of. Guitar sounds like real wood, controlled, and delicate. Even though it sounds like it’s being played with force. It’s sweet and inviting. It’s not hard, jumpy, or biting, or shrill. It’s sort of like hearing someone play a real one where the distance in the air is evening it all out. Voice doesn’t sound real, it sounds like a dream of what real is.. Both aren’t accurate, they are some sort of produced sound. Today it would be hard to find anyone who can get close (I just realized in the YT feed there was that Virginia rich man thing that went viral.. so demand exists!) Actually this might be better There we go... if 40 million people can watch that debatably unlistenable Rich Men North Of Richmond song, surely something like a Gordon Lightfoot could find welcoming ears? The guy Bob Dylan said was the best songwriter of his time. |
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