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Post by thehightenor on Mar 6, 2024 6:11:00 GMT -6
I can’t see any advantage to Cubase and an analog mixer for true zero latency tracking monitoring. "For those of us working at home - max two tracks at a time, why would I want to track through plug-ins when I can track through real hardware and real amps etc" Not everyone can afford bags of HW and HDX or Carbon extends beyond just tracking, we also do things like mixing as well.
"I can’t see any advantage to Cubase and an analog mixer for true zero latency tracking monitoring."
As I explained on the other thread, it's nowhere near zero latency (nothing is as converters aren't magic) especially when you add plugins into the mix. The only way you'll ever reach HDX's level of tracking & consistent internal bus routing latency (for automation etc.) is to get a low latency TB interface like an MOTU (it has an output buffer of like 0.9ms at 96Khz / low samples) and essentially use nothing but an analog console for every duty. You'll get away with some zero latency plugins but most effects would have to be HW, that costs quite a crap load more than HDX or Carbon even if it can be a superior solution. Or, you can, like me do both..
"Are people tracking through amp sims?"
Nope, I've got some boutique amps (Engl Retro, Diezel) but a decent 1 watt which is great for tracking costs like $300? I don't see the need.
"What plug-ins are needed during tracking?"
Usually verbs and compression for Cue Mixes, we all should have a decent cue mix and good verbs at least tend to be on the heavier side of processing. That being said it only really becomes an issue native when you've got 20+ channels all setup with plugins then you need to drop in an overdub. That's when the analog console design I mentioned or HDX system shines..
So all this doesn’t apply to my workflow. I guess that’s why Cubase Pro 13 and an analog monitoring mixer is perfect for my workflow and approach to tracking and mixing as entirely separate processes. Interesting to hear how other people work though - thanks for you reply. |
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Post by doubledog on Mar 6, 2024 8:54:05 GMT -6
I should clarify. I hear the latency. It’s a lot. But what I’m trying to figure out is why when I mute the input on the Apollo console (where the return is coming back in) I hear the processed track in time. I’d assume the processed track (from the outboard comp) would be coming back through my Apollo console… I’m sure I’ve got some routing wrong somewhere…this is the kind of stuff that makes me not have fun. My guess is that when you have both the armed channel (in the DAW) and the UA console channel open, then you hear a phasing, flanging or chorus effect - this is usually really obvious. If you sing/talk it sounds like a weird robotic effect. When I have people track in my studio I always mute the channels(s) in the DAW (Pro Tools) and open UA Console so that they only hear the "near zero latency" monitoring (and I have never ever had a complaint this way - even if I have a DSP reverb or comp in there). But I also regularly track drums at a buffer size of 256 (or sometimes 512) and I don't hear the latency - or really I should say it doesn't usually bother me. At >256 it does sound like a slapback or delay/reverb on the drums (and this is with no plugins or Aux active), but usually the drums are loud enough it covers it up and I don't really hear it. But.... if I tried to feed that buffer size to a vocalist, forget it. They would hate it (and yes, I've tried it in the past). So, if you are only connecting a hardware compressor, then you are only getting the buffer size, plus whatever the round trip latency (of going out and back in) is and then whatever it takes to go through the hardware unit (the only way to know for sure is to measure it). Depending on how you have it hooked up, you might not actually hear it. For example, if you have it in parallel, then you might detect a delay/chorus effect, but if you have it straight inline with whatever the source is, then maybe it's not enough of a delay for your ear to detect. And then you have to decide if that's going to be a problem down the line or not. Sometimes I also have a hardware comp patched in between the preamp and the interface - even analog hardware introduces some latency - but the speed of electrons through that hardware is not enough for our brains to detect. Sam with analog consoles. I sure can't hear that level. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 6, 2024 9:26:54 GMT -6
I should clarify. I hear the latency. It’s a lot. But what I’m trying to figure out is why when I mute the input on the Apollo console (where the return is coming back in) I hear the processed track in time. I’d assume the processed track (from the outboard comp) would be coming back through my Apollo console… I’m sure I’ve got some routing wrong somewhere…this is the kind of stuff that makes me not have fun. My guess is that when you have both the armed channel (in the DAW) and the UA console channel open, then you hear a phasing, flanging or chorus effect - this is usually really obvious. If you sing/talk it sounds like a weird robotic effect. When I have people track in my studio I always mute the channels(s) in the DAW (Pro Tools) and open UA Console so that they only hear the "near zero latency" monitoring (and I have never ever had a complaint this way - even if I have a DSP reverb or comp in there). But I also regularly track drums at a buffer size of 256 (or sometimes 512) and I don't hear the latency - or really I should say it doesn't usually bother me. At >256 it does sound like a slapback or delay/reverb on the drums (and this is with no plugins or Aux active), but usually the drums are loud enough it covers it up and I don't really hear it. But.... if I tried to feed that buffer size to a vocalist, forget it. They would hate it (and yes, I've tried it in the past). So, if you are only connecting a hardware compressor, then you are only getting the buffer size, plus whatever the round trip latency (of going out and back in) is and then whatever it takes to go through the hardware unit (the only way to know for sure is to measure it). Depending on how you have it hooked up, you might not actually hear it. For example, if you have it in parallel, then you might detect a delay/chorus effect, but if you have it straight inline with whatever the source is, then maybe it's not enough of a delay for your ear to detect. And then you have to decide if that's going to be a problem down the line or not. Sometimes I also have a hardware comp patched in between the preamp and the interface - even analog hardware introduces some latency - but the speed of electrons through that hardware is not enough for our brains to detect. Sam with analog consoles. I sure can't hear that level. What I’m saying is it’s the other way around. I’m hearing the delay through the input. Which makes no sense. |
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Post by subspace on Mar 6, 2024 10:19:11 GMT -6
I ran Pro Tools Studio native with a MOTU AVB interface before getting Carbon. It sucked. I thought I was clever working around it's shortcomings using a Trident for analog monitoring, then MOTU's AVB DSP mixer for wi-fi controlled cue mixes, but I was unmuting different inputs on the cue mix while record enabling tracks in PTs, then adjusting levels on the cue mix, then adjusting them again in PTs for the playback. My headache finally went away when I put down the hammer.
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Post by damoongo on Mar 6, 2024 10:23:40 GMT -6
Snag a used HD I/o 16x16 analog box, hdx card, and the software and you’re good to go. No problems with hardware inserts anymore, it just works. No “console” routing etc. That’s what I would do, and am going to do. Go in or out AES if you want a better A/D or D/A for monitor or printing. It really looks like the smarter move would be to just switch to Cubase or Studio One. This |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 6, 2024 10:42:10 GMT -6
It really looks like the smarter move would be to just switch to Cubase or Studio One. This Sigh. But I don’t wanna |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 6, 2024 10:51:59 GMT -6
The smart move is to use the DAW you need to use and you enjoy using. I’ve long thought I should be using Pro Tools (for several non audio related reasons) but I just cannot gel with PT and boy knows I’ve tried! Cubase is my natural creative home and that’s why I produce great work, with ease, using it. Workflow is so important. If Pro Tools feels like home - you gotta stick with it and find work arounds to any issues you might have using it. |
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 6, 2024 13:10:40 GMT -6
Demo the Avid Carbon John. Being in Music City you should be able to get a demo in your room to try out
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098 
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Post by ericn on Mar 6, 2024 13:16:11 GMT -6
Here is what you do, get a quote on a HDX system, print it out, update it with every price increase, tape it to the desk and every time you get frustrated with the rig look at that quote. Suddenly everything feels better 😁
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 6, 2024 14:15:56 GMT -6
The smart move is to use the DAW you need to use and you enjoy using. I’ve long thought I should be using Pro Tools (for several non audio related reasons) but I just cannot gel with PT and boy knows I’ve tried! Cubase is my natural creative home and that’s why I produce great work, with ease, using it. Workflow is so important. If Pro Tools feels like home - you gotta stick with it and find work arounds to any issues you might have using it. Honestly I would probably bite the bullet and go for an HDX system if it weren't for this. I just can't get along with the actual ProTools DAW and not for lack of trying. It all feels upside down to me. |
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Post by notneeson on Mar 6, 2024 14:20:29 GMT -6
The smart move is to use the DAW you need to use and you enjoy using. I’ve long thought I should be using Pro Tools (for several non audio related reasons) but I just cannot gel with PT and boy knows I’ve tried! Cubase is my natural creative home and that’s why I produce great work, with ease, using it. Workflow is so important. If Pro Tools feels like home - you gotta stick with it and find work arounds to any issues you might have using it. Honestly I would probably bite the bullet and go for an HDX system if it weren't for this. I just can't get along with the actual ProTools DAW and not for lack of trying. It all feels upside down to me. Yeah man, I am am 180 degrees from you here in that PT feels like home to me. But that's exactly why those threads where people jaw abut their DAW of choice are pointless to me. (Not that this is one of those, I mean the more "I'd rather push a Chevy than drive a Ford" type threads). |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 6, 2024 14:32:45 GMT -6
It's one of those things John, we can explain and talk about it all day but you just gotta try it. See if you can get a Carbon demo or with a decent returns, let it snap into low latency DSP mode and then try to explain the heck out of why it's worth every penny. It's a Trinnov or to a lesser extent tracking to tape scenario.. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 6, 2024 19:48:03 GMT -6
Demo the Avid Carbon John. Being in Music City you should be able to get a demo in your room to try out You’d be surprised. Hardly anything in stock anymore. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 6, 2024 19:56:37 GMT -6
It's one of those things John, we can explain and talk about it all day but you just gotta try it. See if you can get a Carbon demo or with a decent returns, let it snap into low latency DSP mode and then try to explain the heck out of why it's worth every penny. It's a Trinnov or to a lesser extent tracking to tape scenario.. Oh - I know I want it…it’s just a matter of whether I want to outlay the cash. I have a feeling I wouldn't miss anything without the Apollo and Burl…It will be weird not to be in the Apollo world…but I’m really just ready for shit to work like it’s supposed to. I just spent all day trying to build a track in Cubase. First, I couldn’t figure out how to change the tempo and have the tracks follow it. I could have sworn I’ve done that before by opening the pool and checking the musical boxes by all the files. But oh no. Had to eventually bounce them all down separately (because I couldn’t figure out how to batch bounce) and import into Luna (great time warping) and then back in. Then later, I COULD NOT figure out how to wuantize a piece of audio. I’ve done it before…but couldn’t get it done. I finally gave up and just imported it all in PT. Now, I’m sure all of you Cubase people are saying “oh, all you have to do is blah blah…” That’s great, but I don’t have time to pound through a manual every ten minutes. I’m more convinced after today that I need to just go all in than I was before. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 6, 2024 20:05:37 GMT -6
It's one of those things John, we can explain and talk about it all day but you just gotta try it. See if you can get a Carbon demo or with a decent returns, let it snap into low latency DSP mode and then try to explain the heck out of why it's worth every penny. It's a Trinnov or to a lesser extent tracking to tape scenario.. Oh - I know I want it…it’s just a matter of whether I want to outlay the cash. I have a feeling I wouldn't miss anything without the Apollo and Burl…It will be weird not to be in the Apollo world…but I’m really just ready for shit to work like it’s supposed to. I just spent all day trying to build a track in Cubase. First, I couldn’t figure out how to change the tempo and have the tracks follow it. I could have sworn I’ve done that before by opening the pool and checking the musical boxes by all the files. But oh no. Had to eventually bounce them all down separately (because I couldn’t figure out how to batch bounce) and import into Luna (great time warping) and then back in. Then later, I COULD NOT figure out how to wuantize a piece of audio. I’ve done it before…but couldn’t get it done. I finally gave up and just imported it all in PT. Now, I’m sure all of you Cubase people are saying “oh, all you have to do is blah blah…” That’s great, but I don’t have time to pound through a manual every ten minutes. Cubase has no great videos or anything. Logic has the Logic Pro GEM tutorials and the Logic Pro Help forums. I’m more convinced after today that I need to just go all in than I was before. The only thing that got me through Reaper were Kenny Gioia videos. Without him, the software would be totally unusable. The manual is almost useless. Cubase has no great videos or anything.
Logic has the Logic Pro GEM tutorials and the Logic Pro Help forums.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 6, 2024 20:08:15 GMT -6
eBay has an avid I/o 16x16 for like $600
Found an HDX card on Reverb for $1700
Pt ultimate for a year is $600
Just need to figure out a chassis for the HDX card but that’s just below $3k for all of that.
I mean… not that bad for a system that will do everything you want and keep you in PT land. Frustrations gone.
I’m not saying 3k is nothing, because it’s not. But I’d totally take that system over the flavor of the month/year compressor, personally.
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 6, 2024 21:28:05 GMT -6
Oh - I know I want it…it’s just a matter of whether I want to outlay the cash. I have a feeling I wouldn't miss anything without the Apollo and Burl…It will be weird not to be in the Apollo world…but I’m really just ready for shit to work like it’s supposed to. I just spent all day trying to build a track in Cubase. First, I couldn’t figure out how to change the tempo and have the tracks follow it. I could have sworn I’ve done that before by opening the pool and checking the musical boxes by all the files. But oh no. Had to eventually bounce them all down separately (because I couldn’t figure out how to batch bounce) and import into Luna (great time warping) and then back in. Then later, I COULD NOT figure out how to wuantize a piece of audio. I’ve done it before…but couldn’t get it done. I finally gave up and just imported it all in PT. Now, I’m sure all of you Cubase people are saying “oh, all you have to do is blah blah…” That’s great, but I don’t have time to pound through a manual every ten minutes. I’m more convinced after today that I need to just go all in than I was before. Same here really, I've worked on fricking complex engines, DSP etc. but for the life of me I couldn't get used to (or really understand) Studio One. Cubase I've not used since college but I'm sure I'd tank with it in about an hour, Samplitude is just like Pro Tools but WIN only. Logic is a bit illogical for me although my main issue with it is the amount of bugs but some seem to work around it just fine and Reaper is urr Reaper..
I'm not jumping on these DAW's (at all) because I've never come across professional products in any remit (whether that be developer tools, game engines, DAW's etc.) that didn't either come without bugs, weird ways of working, complexity for the sake of flexibility, limitations or something that just irks at some point. IME you find a product that allows you to work with the least amount of migraine inducing headaches and run with it. Nothing is perfect, I never understood the DAW wars as for me at least it's time invested that sealed the result and now it's really difficult to adapt to anything else. But for me the main issue with Pro Tools HDX was (to quote idiocracy) "I like money".. Hence after getting rid of a HDX solution I did everything possible to try and avoid it. But, here we are again LOL.. Should have just saved a lot of time.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 6, 2024 21:45:49 GMT -6
I was just about to type that I was going to really jump into figuring out Pro Tools HWDC tomorrow…and then it occurred to me that I’d have to figure it out for each sample rate. I’m in 48 90% of the time…but man, the thought of that is just overwhelming.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 6, 2024 21:47:24 GMT -6
eBay has an avid I/o 16x16 for like $600 Found an HDX card on Reverb for $1700 Pt ultimate for a year is $600 Just need to figure out a chassis for the HDX card but that’s just below $3k for all of that. I mean… not that bad for a system that will do everything you want and keep you in PT land. Frustrations gone. I’m not saying 3k is nothing, because it’s not. But I’d totally take that system over the flavor of the month/year compressor, personally. But aren’t those avid converters supposed to be bad? |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 6, 2024 22:02:56 GMT -6
But aren’t those avid converters supposed to be bad? I originally had the 192's, they weren't great. Personally I'd start with Omni and work up chronologically from there on.. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 6, 2024 22:05:44 GMT -6
eBay has an avid I/o 16x16 for like $600 Found an HDX card on Reverb for $1700 Pt ultimate for a year is $600 Just need to figure out a chassis for the HDX card but that’s just below $3k for all of that. I mean… not that bad for a system that will do everything you want and keep you in PT land. Frustrations gone. I’m not saying 3k is nothing, because it’s not. But I’d totally take that system over the flavor of the month/year compressor, personally. Couple of questions on this, Jeremy (and/or seawell or others): 1. Jeremy, you said PT Ultimate for a year is $600. What about these so-called "perpetual licenses," or whatever they're called? Is that what $600 gets you? Or is that $600 a yearly amount you have to ante up? Or is it an "updates included for a year" kind of situation? 2. The Avid I/O 16x16 you mentioned: is that an HD192? Or something else? Does it also work with CoreAudio on a Mac (as in, other applications like other DAWs, editors, NLEs, etc.)? I'm guessing there are AES digital connections if you want to use other converters? 3. And the big question for me with all of the above: how long are these Avid hardware devices and DSP cards supported with new drivers and such? How often is PT actually updated? I usually run my studio machine at about one year / one OS behind whatever OS Apple is currently pushing. My understanding is that a lot of PT guys don't update their systems that often, which I understand - if that's all you're doing with your system, no need to keep updating it if it works. But I update at that pace because of other software I need to use, especially video editing software, where major updates are coming fast and furious with increasing AI tools for masking and stuff. I'm sure I have other questions, but those are 3 big ones that have hung me up on PT for several years now. I know they probably sound like really basic questions, but I don't think most PT guys I've talked to appreciate how foreign the PT world is to literally everyone else using a different DAW. Literally all of those other DAWs are more similar to each other than any of them are to PT (with the possible exception of Luna now). And seriously, thanks to all you PT guys in this thread helping clear up some of the confusion! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 6, 2024 22:09:04 GMT -6
But aren’t those avid converters supposed to be bad? I originally had the 192's, they weren't great. Personally I'd start with Omni and work up chronologically from there on.. I’m pretty sure a Carbon would work fine for me. Here’s a question, though…I think someone said yes earlier, but just wanted to confirm. Does anything with digilink like the Aurora or Burl B16 et al - would they all work with pro tools ultimate and do the correct delay comp for hardware? Or is that only with Carbon or an hdx card? |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 6, 2024 22:11:38 GMT -6
eBay has an avid I/o 16x16 for like $600 Found an HDX card on Reverb for $1700 Pt ultimate for a year is $600 Just need to figure out a chassis for the HDX card but that’s just below $3k for all of that. I mean… not that bad for a system that will do everything you want and keep you in PT land. Frustrations gone. I’m not saying 3k is nothing, because it’s not. But I’d totally take that system over the flavor of the month/year compressor, personally. But aren’t those avid converters supposed to be bad? I don’t honestly get into the cork sniffing converter thing. There isn’t anything wrong with the newest Hd I/o 16 x 16 box. You’d have no problem making things sound great with it. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 6, 2024 22:11:45 GMT -6
I originally had the 192's, they weren't great. Personally I'd start with Omni and work up chronologically from there on.. I’m pretty sure a Carbon would work fine for me. Here’s a question, though…I think someone said yes earlier, but just wanted to confirm. Does anything with digilink like the Aurora or Burl B16 et al - would they all work with pro tools ultimate and do the correct delay comp for hardware? Or is that only with Carbon or an hdx card? I thought the Digilink protocol was how you hooked up your converters to the HDX card? So with Aurora or Burl with Digilink you wouldn't need an Avid box, you'd just go from Aurora/Burl straight to the HDX card? But maybe I'm totally mixed up... |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 6, 2024 22:13:11 GMT -6
I originally had the 192's, they weren't great. Personally I'd start with Omni and work up chronologically from there on.. I’m pretty sure a Carbon would work fine for me. Here’s a question, though…I think someone said yes earlier, but just wanted to confirm. Does anything with digilink like the Aurora or Burl B16 et al - would they all work with pro tools ultimate and do the correct delay comp for hardware? Or is that only with Carbon or an hdx card? I personally know the Burl and the Apogee work just like an avid box. Plug it in and the PT I/o things it’s an avid box. Can’t speak to the other companies as I’ve not used them. |
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