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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 5, 2024 9:21:18 GMT -6
Like Johnkenn I toy with giving in to the dark side (Protools) every now and then but I just can't even fathom how I would do it. So I was really interested in this thread but I gotta say, you guys must know some very smart five year olds! I use a lot of outboard for mixing so Protools is always appealing and I'm susceptible to marketing tactics like "it just works." That always hits me right in the emotional sweetspot. Just works? That's what I want!!! Ok, but I'm failing to see how the wonderfully low latency of Carbon or HDX is any better than monitoring through a console. The only advantage I see is that you can overdub with plugins. But can't I do that anyway? Can't I set my buffer as high as I want in my DAW and then the input delay compensation will take care of the rest? My musicians (or me as the case may be) will hear true zero latency getting their mix off the board and then studio magic will make it all line up at the end of the take. Right? |
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Post by drbill on Mar 5, 2024 9:31:46 GMT -6
<snip> HDX is the only answer in my opinion. Using Avid interfaces with Pro Tools, the i/o is simplified and easy to navigate All i/o is controlled within Pro Tools, no annoying extra mixer windows. In my world it's definitely the only answer. |
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Post by notneeson on Mar 5, 2024 9:32:27 GMT -6
Like Johnkenn I toy with giving in to the dark side (Protools) every now and then but I just can't even fathom how I would do it. So I was really interested in this thread but I gotta say, you guys must know some very smart five year olds! I use a lot of outboard for mixing so Protools is always appealing and I'm susceptible to marketing tactics like "it just works." That always hits me right in the emotional sweetspot. Just works? That's what I want!!! Ok, but I'm failing to see how the wonderfully low latency of Carbon or HDX is any better than monitoring through a console. The only advantage I see is that you can overdub with plugins. But can't I do that anyway? Can't I set my buffer as high as I want in my DAW and then the input delay compensation will take care of the rest? My musicians (or me as the case may be) will hear true zero latency getting their mix off the board and then studio magic will make it all line up at the end of the take. Right? If you’re comfortable running monitor mixes on your console that’s totally fine. But for me, it’s way easier to setup an PT cue mix than it is tk get one going on say, am API 1608. My routing in PT is basically infinite. Not so much the console. Also, I can send my balances to my cue faders with a click, and then tweak them independently as needed. Stunt reverb? Sure, takes like 30 seconds. I think folks who prefer to do it on a console are just used to doing it that way. Nothing wrong with sticking to what works. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 5, 2024 9:38:40 GMT -6
Like Johnkenn I toy with giving in to the dark side (Protools) every now and then but I just can't even fathom how I would do it. So I was really interested in this thread but I gotta say, you guys must know some very smart five year olds! I use a lot of outboard for mixing so Protools is always appealing and I'm susceptible to marketing tactics like "it just works." That always hits me right in the emotional sweetspot. Just works? That's what I want!!! Ok, but I'm failing to see how the wonderfully low latency of Carbon or HDX is any better than monitoring through a console. The only advantage I see is that you can overdub with plugins. But can't I do that anyway? Can't I set my buffer as high as I want in my DAW and then the input delay compensation will take care of the rest? My musicians (or me as the case may be) will hear true zero latency getting their mix off the board and then studio magic will make it all line up at the end of the take. Right? If you’re comfortable running monitor mixes on your console that’s totally fine. But for me, it’s way easier to setup an PT cue mix than it is tk get one going on say, am API 1608. My routing in PT is basically infinite. Not so much the console. Also, I can send my balances to my cue faders with a click, and then tweak them independently as needed. Stunt reverb? Sure, takes like 30 seconds. I think folks who prefer to do it on a console are just used to doing it that way. Nothing wrong with sticking to what works. For cues, I've been interested in the Motu Monitor 8 and associated AVB setup. I've never tried it, but at least on paper it seems like you could just feed it everything, along with stunt reverbs, and then let the musicians self mix their headphones mix using their phones to connect back to the web based mixer interface on the Monitor 8. And that's supposed to be pretty low latency. I contacted Motu about the latency numbers a few years ago, but I forget what they exactly were. |
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Post by ericn on Mar 5, 2024 9:46:00 GMT -6
Like Johnkenn I toy with giving in to the dark side (Protools) every now and then but I just can't even fathom how I would do it. So I was really interested in this thread but I gotta say, you guys must know some very smart five year olds! I use a lot of outboard for mixing so Protools is always appealing and I'm susceptible to marketing tactics like "it just works." That always hits me right in the emotional sweetspot. Just works? That's what I want!!! Ok, but I'm failing to see how the wonderfully low latency of Carbon or HDX is any better than monitoring through a console. The only advantage I see is that you can overdub with plugins. But can't I do that anyway? Can't I set my buffer as high as I want in my DAW and then the input delay compensation will take care of the rest? My musicians (or me as the case may be) will hear true zero latency getting their mix off the board and then studio magic will make it all line up at the end of the take. Right? Recall of everything and low latency. Depending on the demands of talent, being able to pull up the exact same mix you had in their cans yesterday in a second may not just be golden but an expectation . |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 5, 2024 9:48:24 GMT -6
<snip> HDX is the only answer in my opinion. Using Avid interfaces with Pro Tools, the i/o is simplified and easy to navigate All i/o is controlled within Pro Tools, no annoying extra mixer windows. In my world it's definitely the only answer. There's the issue of industry compatibility as well as massive mixes in post. I don't come across the latter at all (not my market) and even the former is surprisingly uncommon in Austin. At least for me. My mix projects are either stuff I was brought in to track as well or other musicians realizing they can't mix their own stuff and they overwhelming use Logic. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 5, 2024 9:54:07 GMT -6
Just curious, is there any other system/interface/anything in the world that has the same seamless insert delay compensation that isn't Avid/ProTools? then you’re stuck wth Presonus products I thought that Quantum got the Dan seal of approval |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 5, 2024 9:56:02 GMT -6
So after a bit of digging, Studio One + Quantum interface seems to be somewhat similar to HDX. Latency is automatically compensated on inserts. No fiddling with software because everything is integrated, according to users. However, it seems like latency is worse than HDX. It shouldn't be a big deal if you're only mixing with hardware. Might be worth looking into. I had a client come in yesterday with his mock-ups on a PC laptop running Studio One. It kind of reminded me of Chibson. Yeah I know. I kind of looks like a toy that me…but I believe it was longtime Cubase guys that built it, right? And it might be the most feature filled available. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 5, 2024 10:07:00 GMT -6
In my world it's definitely the only answer. There's the issue of industry compatibility as well as massive mixes in post. I don't come across the latter at all (not my market) and even the former is surprisingly uncommon in Austin. At least for me. My mix projects are either stuff I was brought in to track as well or other musicians realizing they can't mix their own stuff and they overwhelming use Logic. Yeah I’m not going to get hired to do post work this millennium I think… Here was/is my goal. I want to be able to mix with hardware as conveniently as a plugin. To do that in Pro Tools, it’s going to cost thousands…when I could just switch to a daw that has a ping feature or something and all my problems are solved. I’d be kind of a dumbass to spend $4k when that’s an option. Maybe I’ll just commit to switching for a month or so and see how it goes. Have we heard anything about when Luna might get HWDC, Quint? Quint has kind of sold me again on sticking with the UA universe…I basically have a carbon…but without hwdc…so $4k would just be for completely for convenience. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 5, 2024 10:18:15 GMT -6
There's the issue of industry compatibility as well as massive mixes in post. I don't come across the latter at all (not my market) and even the former is surprisingly uncommon in Austin. At least for me. My mix projects are either stuff I was brought in to track as well or other musicians realizing they can't mix their own stuff and they overwhelming use Logic. Yeah I’m not going to get hired to do post work this millennium I think… Here was/is my goal. I want to be able to mix with hardware as conveniently as a plugin. To do that in Pro Tools, it’s going to cost thousands…when I could just switch to a daw that has a ping feature or something and all my problems are solved. I’d be kind of a dumbass to spend $4k when that’s an option. Maybe I’ll just commit to switching for a month or so and see how it goes. Have we heard anything about when Luna might get HWDC, Quint? Quint has kind of sold me again on sticking with the UA universe…I basically have a carbon…but without hwdc…so $4k would just be for completely for convenience. UA hasn't announced anything official yet on when HW inserts will be coming. That said, I have noticed a subtle shift in messaging from UA when the topic has come up over on the UAD forum and elsewhere. It's gone from "we'd like to do HW inserts one day" to "we know how much our customers want HW inserts", the implication being a wink and a nod to the idea that UA has maybe finally recognized how many people want HW inserts and/or maybe has also moved HW inserts to near the front of the line for future updates. So that's just speculation on my part, but it seems like it could be more of a near future reality than it did before. Like you, it's the one major feature for me that Luna is still missing. If they get HW inserts added, my needs in Luna would mostly be complete. Everything after that would just be wants, and not needs. Not for nothing, but I've been having some discussions with a few other Luna users over on the UAD forum about coming up with a backdoor way to create HW inserts in Luna NOW. It involves using Blue Cat Connector (for the linkage) and Reaper for the HW inserts hosting. Not all of the kinks have been worked out yet, but IF we can manage to do that, it may become an alternative, at least until UA does it themselves. It wouldn't be quite as elegant as UA doing it themselves, but it would, in theory, be a one time setup, and then you could just add Bluecat connector as a plugin in whatever insert you wanted in Luna, and then have presets setup to choose from in BC connector, for each piece of hardware. |
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Post by svart on Mar 5, 2024 10:18:31 GMT -6
If you’re comfortable running monitor mixes on your console that’s totally fine. But for me, it’s way easier to setup an PT cue mix than it is tk get one going on say, am API 1608. My routing in PT is basically infinite. Not so much the console. Also, I can send my balances to my cue faders with a click, and then tweak them independently as needed. Stunt reverb? Sure, takes like 30 seconds. I think folks who prefer to do it on a console are just used to doing it that way. Nothing wrong with sticking to what works. For cues, I've been interested in the Motu Monitor 8 and associated AVB setup. I've never tried it, but at least on paper it seems like you could just feed it everything, along with stunt reverbs, and then let the musicians self mix their headphones mix using their phones to connect back to the web based mixer interface on the Monitor 8. And that's supposed to be pretty low latency. I contacted Motu about the latency numbers a few years ago, but I forget what they exactly were. Basically what I do, but I use the analog outputs from my 828es out to a hearback system. At 88.2k and 128 samples I'm getting around 5ms through Reaper and the motu system. I can't imagine buying a hdx system to get the same performance.. |
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Post by drbill on Mar 5, 2024 10:19:53 GMT -6
In my world it's definitely the only answer. There's the issue of industry compatibility as well as massive mixes in post. I don't come across the latter at all (not my market) and even the former is surprisingly uncommon in Austin. At least for me. My mix projects are either stuff I was brought in to track as well or other musicians realizing they can't mix their own stuff and they overwhelming use Logic. Well...for post work, its beyond a no brainer. But I don't do that anymore. Just music here. It's still the only way for me.... |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Mar 5, 2024 10:22:06 GMT -6
Am I correct in assuming you only need hardware inserts because you are all mixing in the box, but going in / out for analog outboard?
And if so, wouldn't using a simple summing mixer eliminate that need?
Or am I missing something?
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Post by Quint on Mar 5, 2024 10:28:37 GMT -6
Also, all of these AVID products (Carbon, HDX, MTRX) have fans, for whatever that's worth. If potential fan noise is an issue.
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Post by Dan on Mar 5, 2024 10:44:08 GMT -6
then you’re stuck wth Presonus products I thought that Quantum got the Dan seal of approval Dude it sucks. Way worse than an Apollo or Apogee. All of this prosumer junk has dirtier treble hit hot (which you need to for noise often) than distortion plugs of older good gear hit at reasonable levels. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 5, 2024 10:49:42 GMT -6
I thought that Quantum got the Dan seal of approval Dude it sucks. Way worse than an Apollo or Apogee. I think I've read that the tradeoff of the lower native RTL on the Quantum is that compromises (for speed purposes) had to be made on the filters and other such things related to the AD/DA, with the net result being that the Quantum doesn't sound as good, as compared to other, slower native RTL interfaces. No free lunch, as they say. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 5, 2024 11:08:37 GMT -6
There's the issue of industry compatibility as well as massive mixes in post. I don't come across the latter at all (not my market) and even the former is surprisingly uncommon in Austin. At least for me. My mix projects are either stuff I was brought in to track as well or other musicians realizing they can't mix their own stuff and they overwhelming use Logic. Yeah I’m not going to get hired to do post work this millennium I think… Here was/is my goal. I want to be able to mix with hardware as conveniently as a plugin. To do that in Pro Tools, it’s going to cost thousands…when I could just switch to a daw that has a ping feature or something and all my problems are solved. I’d be kind of a dumbass to spend $4k when that’s an option. Maybe I’ll just commit to switching for a month or so and see how it goes. Have we heard anything about when Luna might get HWDC, Quint ? Quint has kind of sold me again on sticking with the UA universe…I basically have a carbon…but without hwdc…so $4k would just be for completely for convenience. You should demo Studio One. The hardware as a plugin is dead simple. Also, it's a very customizable DAW in terms of color schemes and look and feel so it's not hard to de-candy it if you want to. To me it looks a lot like Cubase out of the box, I desaturate everything and tone it down and it looks great. WAYYY better than Logic, that's for sure and personally I don't care for the look of Luna. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 5, 2024 11:13:01 GMT -6
Dude it sucks. Way worse than an Apollo or Apogee. I think I've read that the tradeoff of the lower native RTL on the Quantum is that compromises (for speed purposes) had to be made on the filters and other such things related to the AD/DA, with the net result being that the Quantum doesn't sound that great, as compared to other, slower native RTL interfaces. No free lunch, as they say. The filter are the main source of latency in converters and interfaces but the sound is garbage on it. RME does that compromised filter shenanigans too. Working with Presonus Studio and Quantum was a PITA. Presonus never again. |
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Post by ragan on Mar 5, 2024 11:16:39 GMT -6
There's the issue of industry compatibility as well as massive mixes in post. I don't come across the latter at all (not my market) and even the former is surprisingly uncommon in Austin. At least for me. My mix projects are either stuff I was brought in to track as well or other musicians realizing they can't mix their own stuff and they overwhelming use Logic. Yeah I’m not going to get hired to do post work this millennium I think… Here was/is my goal. I want to be able to mix with hardware as conveniently as a plugin. To do that in Pro Tools, it’s going to cost thousands…when I could just switch to a daw that has a ping feature or something and all my problems are solved. I’d be kind of a dumbass to spend $4k when that’s an option. Maybe I’ll just commit to switching for a month or so and see how it goes. Have we heard anything about when Luna might get HWDC, Quint ? Quint has kind of sold me again on sticking with the UA universe…I basically have a carbon…but without hwdc…so $4k would just be for completely for convenience. I'm kind of in the same boat. Been on PT forever, but it's such a Stockholm syndrome-y relationship. I've always said to myself, "I do not have time to learn another DAW..." but after dealing with various PT bugs for so long, that argument is getting weaker. For example, I just had a bunch of drum takes on playlists and I was working on a comp. Suddenly, one of the playlists is missing one of the OH tracks, and a couple other playlists have individual mics/tracks that aren't actually part of that take. I wasted a bunch of time searching around only to see lots of threads where people are like "hey, suddenly my playlists aren't sync'd...I've lost several hours of tracking since I can't comp this anymore...I sure hope Avid fixes this in the next update [post from like 2012...]". It's just one of many flaky things about PT that have been around forever and I just live with them because I don't want to spend the time to switch DAWs. If Luna gets hardware inserts (real ones, not the Avid janky way where you have to try to manually compute them but then they don't give you enough granularity in delay values you can enter), I'll probably switch. Paying top dollar for Avid's buggy DAW and thinking that maybe they'll finally fix things *any minute now* is so lame. Avid is gonna Avid and thinking otherwise continues to be foolish I think. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 5, 2024 11:36:06 GMT -6
I think I've read that the tradeoff of the lower native RTL on the Quantum is that compromises (for speed purposes) had to be made on the filters and other such things related to the AD/DA, with the net result being that the Quantum doesn't sound that great, as compared to other, slower native RTL interfaces. No free lunch, as they say. The filter are the main source of latency in converters and interfaces but the sound is garbage on it. RME does that compromised filter shenanigans too. Working with Presonus Studio and Quantum was a PITA. Presonus never again. This is one of the arguments for DSP, IMO. If you can monitor without having to take a round trip thru the computer, you can get away with slower AD/DA filter speeds (and therefore, better sound) because you don't have to worry about the additional time needed for buffers, etc., all while still maintaining low latency. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 5, 2024 11:40:53 GMT -6
Yeah I’m not going to get hired to do post work this millennium I think… Here was/is my goal. I want to be able to mix with hardware as conveniently as a plugin. To do that in Pro Tools, it’s going to cost thousands…when I could just switch to a daw that has a ping feature or something and all my problems are solved. I’d be kind of a dumbass to spend $4k when that’s an option. Maybe I’ll just commit to switching for a month or so and see how it goes. Have we heard anything about when Luna might get HWDC, Quint ? Quint has kind of sold me again on sticking with the UA universe…I basically have a carbon…but without hwdc…so $4k would just be for completely for convenience. I'm kind of in the same boat. Been on PT forever, but it's such a Stockholm syndrome-y relationship. I've always said to myself, "I do not have time to learn another DAW..." but after dealing with various PT bugs for so long, that argument is getting weaker. For example, I just had a bunch of drum takes on playlists and I was working on a comp. Suddenly, one of the playlists is missing one of the OH tracks, and a couple other playlists have individual mics/tracks that aren't actually part of that take. I wasted a bunch of time searching around only to see lots of threads where people are like "hey, suddenly my playlists aren't sync'd...I've lost several hours of tracking since I can't comp this anymore...I sure hope Avid fixes this in the next update [post from like 2012...]". It's just one of many flaky things about PT that have been around forever and I just live with them because I don't want to spend the time to switch DAWs. If Luna gets hardware inserts (real ones, not the Avid janky way where you have to try to manually compute them but then they don't give you enough granularity in delay values you can enter), I'll probably switch. Paying top dollar for Avid's buggy DAW and thinking that maybe they'll finally fix things *any minute now* is so lame. Avid is gonna Avid and thinking otherwise continues to be foolish I think. One would assume that UA will implement HW inserts in a manner similar to how a few of the other DAWs out there do it with a HW insert plugin, where you basically just treat your hardware like a plugin. At least I certainly think that's how UA "should" do it. And I think they will take that approach, given how plugin centric UA is. As has been discussed, UA isn't without their faults, but I'd still take UA over Avid. |
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Post by seawell on Mar 5, 2024 11:48:05 GMT -6
Also, all of these AVID products (Carbon, HDX, MTRX) have fans, for whatever that's worth. If potential fan noise is an issue. This is one reason I prefer Lynx interfaces. Half the rack space and no fan noise. They show up as Avid interfaces as far as Pro Tools is concerned, it's awesome. I used to have 2 Avid HD I/O and on hot days the noise did start to annoy me. Forgive the shameless plug but I ended up swapping the fan in the Avid and it's much better for anyone interested in that: |
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Post by Quint on Mar 5, 2024 11:51:58 GMT -6
Also, all of these AVID products (Carbon, HDX, MTRX) have fans, for whatever that's worth. If potential fan noise is an issue. This is one reason I prefer Lynx interfaces. Half the rack space and no fan noise. They show up as Avid interfaces as far as Pro Tools is concerned, it's awesome. I used to have 2 Avid HD I/O and on hot days the noise did start to annoy me. Forgive the shameless plug but I ended up swapping the fan in the Avid and it's much better for anyone interested in that: This is one of a myriad of reasons that, IF I ever dropped my Apollos, Lynx would almost certainly be my number one choice to replace them. |
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Post by seawell on Mar 5, 2024 11:52:34 GMT -6
I hope I'm wrong for the sake of those that use it and enjoy it, but based off of UA's recent track record, I don't have high hopes for the future of Luna. They aren't behaving like a company that is doing well financially IMHO. I doubt automatic delay compensation for hardware inserts is anywhere in the near future. Again...hope I'm wrong!
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Post by bigbone on Mar 5, 2024 11:53:35 GMT -6
Get the Carbon,use there pre's and you will be more than fine......
No more latency with EXT HW.
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