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Post by thehightenor on Jan 18, 2024 3:28:37 GMT -6
I really must not spend anymore of my children’s inheritance - but ….
If I was to cross my red line and 2024 New Year’s resolution not to buy any big ticket items this years (I know I’m going to crumble)
Which Schoeps is the current favourite for recording acoustic guitar.
I have a Martin D-18 and a well treated 16ft x10ft room.
I have a stereo pair of vintage AKG 451e that are very nice but they are “that” sound.
I don’t record stereo guitar and if I go fancy I do middle and side using a condenser and ribbon.
So probably just a mono Schoeps for my pop rock productions.
Which is the one to go for?
Mk4 (cardioid)
Mk41 (super cardioid)
MK ??
Thanks
tht
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Post by hadaja on Jan 18, 2024 4:37:10 GMT -6
Are you going to get a CMC5 or CMC6 body?
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 18, 2024 5:10:33 GMT -6
Are you going to get a CMC5 or CMC6 body? Ah .... there's more to this than originally caught my eye! I've heard so much about Schoeps over the years and had the pleasure of been recorded with them in my session playing days but I never took notice of the options - only how great they sounded! Which body would you go for and why? At a quick glance and read- I imagine I'll simply go for a CMC6 body and perhaps the MK4? But as I've not personally owned one, I was hoping for some user feedback  |
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Post by gwlee7 on Jan 18, 2024 5:58:18 GMT -6
Unless you are dead set on schoeps, I would give the Gefell M 294, 295, or 296 serious consideration too.
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 18, 2024 6:11:27 GMT -6
I have 3 and I love them.
I've got MK4, MK41 and MK21 capsules. The MK21 is really interesting, not quite omni, not quite cardioid.
On acoustic guitars I either go for MK41 if I want to kill the room or 21 if I want a bit more depth.
The MK4 is great, it's a classic for a reason.
Compared to a KM84 which most people are familir with , it's slightly darker but sounds more natural. The KM84 is unbeatable for instant pop/rock mixed sound but the Schoeps are a bit more transparent.
It is a bit picky as far as preamps go I find, the 84 sounds more consistent across preamps.
I also really like Schoeps as overheads in a small room, I've done a ton of records with MK41s as overheads and it's a nice sound, nice stereo, separation and doesn't sound harsh like a lot of cheaper sdcs.
I'll see if I can record a quick pass against a KM84.
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Post by unit7 on Jan 18, 2024 6:30:08 GMT -6
I have 3 and I love them. I've got MK4, MK41 and MK21 capsules. The MK21 is really interesting, not quite omni, not quite cardioid. On acoustic guitars I either go for MK41 if I want to kill the room or 21 if I want a bit more depth. The MK4 is great, it's a classic for a reason. Compared to a KM84 which most people are familir with , it's slightly darker but sounds more natural. The KM84 is unbeatable for instant pop/rock mixed sound but the Schoeps are a bit more transparent. It is a bit picky as far as preamps go I find, the 84 sounds more consistent across preamps. I also really like Schoeps as overheads in a small room, I've done a ton of records with MK41s as overheads and it's a nice sound, nice stereo, separation and doesn't sound harsh like a lot of cheaper sdcs. I'll see if I can record a quick pass against a KM84. +1 totally MK4 or 21 for a really high end sound on acoustic, grand piano and overs is as good as it gets. I also have a matched trio of MK2S capsules for Decca tree which sounds just lovely. I've worked with the DPA and Sennheiser equivalents a couple of times and they are fantastic but every time I record with Schoeps I smile a little extra. While absolutely in the clean domain there's something smooth and musical to them. Re CMC5 or CMC6 body I believe they only make the latter, not? CMC5 I believe was the former generation body/amp. |
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 18, 2024 7:01:28 GMT -6
Here a bunch of files : www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/u3crb9crgwn2weovn7lqq/h?rlkey=kfnutwrpzassrschd3m8lgygw&dl=0Tell me if you guys can access them. I put a KM84 and a Schoeps as close as I could get the, same takes, both going through BAE 1073s, a couple takes with a J45 with old strings and a take with my Kay parlor guitar. I also added a file of my 00018 miced with an MK4 into a Coil CA70 into an iron age LH95 which is my main mono acoustic tracking chain, the Schoeps open up nicely with that eq. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 18, 2024 7:18:24 GMT -6
Here a bunch of files : www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/u3crb9crgwn2weovn7lqq/h?rlkey=kfnutwrpzassrschd3m8lgygw&dl=0Tell me if you guys can access them. I put a KM84 and a Schoeps as close as I could get the, same takes, both going through BAE 1073s, a couple takes with a J45 with old strings and a take with my Kay parlor guitar. I also added a file of my 00018 miced with an MK4 into a Coil CA70 into an iron age LH95 which is my main mono acoustic tracking chain, the Schoeps open up nicely with that eq. Thank you! I have those same two pre's BAE 1073D pre/EQ and the Coil CA-70. I also use a Martin D18 - seems we have similar tastes :-) What EQ moves are you making with the LH95 during tracking? (the EQ on my BAE is inductor based as in my Thermionic Swift (well the mids are) Thanks |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 18, 2024 7:27:46 GMT -6
Straight away on listening the Schoeps let's you here the guitar is made of wood! It's such a beautiful natural sound - warm and yet detailed. I see where they get the reputation from - it kinda reminded me of my AEA R92 just more detailed. The KM84 is nice too but sounds a bit pre eq'ed and radio ready which I imagine for pop would be great. (I already have a pair of vintage AKG 451E's that can do something similar and they actually sound fantastic on a nylon string guitar where the extra top end etching is a real positive) I personally love the idea of the Schoeps MK4 capturing my D-18 in such a beautifully natural way and then I have the choice at mix down how I want to sculpt my acoustic guitar sound. Great set of demo clips - thank you so much brice you're a star PS Is that your guitar playing - sounded really good! |
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 18, 2024 7:31:07 GMT -6
Here a bunch of files : www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/u3crb9crgwn2weovn7lqq/h?rlkey=kfnutwrpzassrschd3m8lgygw&dl=0Tell me if you guys can access them. I put a KM84 and a Schoeps as close as I could get the, same takes, both going through BAE 1073s, a couple takes with a J45 with old strings and a take with my Kay parlor guitar. I also added a file of my 00018 miced with an MK4 into a Coil CA70 into an iron age LH95 which is my main mono acoustic tracking chain, the Schoeps open up nicely with that eq. Thank you! I have those same two pre's BAE 1073D pre/EQ and the Coil CA-70. I also use a Martin D18 - seems we have similar tastes :-) What EQ moves are you making with the LH95 during tracking? (the EQ on my BAE is inductor based as in my Thermionic Swift (well the mids are) Thanks Usually just open it up a with a High shelf, and sometimes cutting a bit of 700. The Siemens style of eq is cool on acoustic for a pristine sound, nice complement to the more RnR sound of the BAE. |
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Post by trappist on Jan 18, 2024 7:47:02 GMT -6
I have a MK22 Open Cardioid and a MK41 Super Cardioid that I use for flute and clarinet. I prefer the MK41 focus directly on the instrument.
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 18, 2024 7:49:07 GMT -6
Straight away on listening the Schoeps let's you here the guitar is made of wood! It's such a beautiful natural sound - warm and yet detailed. I see where they get the reputation from - it kinda reminded me of my AEA R92 just more detailed. The KM84 is nice too but sounds a bit pre eq'ed and radio ready which I imagine for pop would be great. (I already have a pair of vintage AKG 451E's that can do something similar and they actually sound fantastic on a nylon string guitar where the extra top end etching is a real positive) I personally love the idea of the Schoeps MK4 capturing my D-18 in such a beautifully natural way and then I have the choice at mix down how I want to sculpt my acoustic guitar sound. Great set of demo clips - thank you so much brice you're a star PS Is that your guitar playing - sounded really good! You're very welcome! The Schoeps definitely lets more of the instrument come through, it puts less of a stamp on the sound and takes eq extremely well, I have some friends who find it a bit boring for pop but I feel with the right chain after it, you can get plenty of excitement. I've actually rediscovered 451Es since getting Coils, they can be hard through some preamps but for a modern smiley face strummed sound, 451E into Coil is amazing! Thanks for the kind words, I've played so little these last couple of years that I feel like my playing and timing is pretty sloppy but my main music goal for 2024 is start playing daily again! |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 18, 2024 8:40:48 GMT -6
Straight away on listening the Schoeps let's you here the guitar is made of wood! It's such a beautiful natural sound - warm and yet detailed. I see where they get the reputation from - it kinda reminded me of my AEA R92 just more detailed. The KM84 is nice too but sounds a bit pre eq'ed and radio ready which I imagine for pop would be great. (I already have a pair of vintage AKG 451E's that can do something similar and they actually sound fantastic on a nylon string guitar where the extra top end etching is a real positive) I personally love the idea of the Schoeps MK4 capturing my D-18 in such a beautifully natural way and then I have the choice at mix down how I want to sculpt my acoustic guitar sound. Great set of demo clips - thank you so much brice you're a star PS Is that your guitar playing - sounded really good! You're very welcome! The Schoeps definitely lets more of the instrument come through, it puts less of a stamp on the sound and takes eq extremely well, I have some friends who find it a bit boring for pop but I feel with the right chain after it, you can get plenty of excitement. I've actually rediscovered 451Es since getting Coils, they can be hard through some preamps but for a modern smiley face strummed sound, 451E into Coil is amazing! Thanks for the kind words, I've played so little these last couple of years that I feel like my playing and timing is pretty sloppy but my main music goal for 2024 is start playing daily again! You know on further listening I do also really like the KM84 as well. They’re both really great mics! They’re even more expensive second hand than a new Schoeps. I wonder gone the KM184 fairs - I’m not a big fan of modern Neumann mics. |
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 18, 2024 9:40:38 GMT -6
It is nice to have both! I tend to find the pick sounds more natural with the Schoeps so I usually start with the Schoeps.
For percussion probably the Schoeps because again I find the transients sound more realistic but it's really a toss up, I'd be perfectly happy with either one and go on making records. Ultimately they are more similar than dissimilar, and both will be quite a contrast to the 451.
BTW both are great on vocals.
For Overheads I lean towards the Schoeps which I find a bit smoother.
The KM184 isn't a bad microphone, I've done records with them and it came out fine. The overall frequency balance is somewhat similar, it has that unmistakeable Neumann sound, but a little more Highs and Lows than the 84 and it doesn't smooth out the transients quite as much so it can sound harder. The biggest difference to my ears is the polar pattern, I feel like the 84 has an almost omni thing going compared to the KM184, hard to explain but really obvious when you hear it, and that makes it sit in a mix better.
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Post by lee on Jan 18, 2024 9:45:30 GMT -6
Re CMC5 or CMC6 body I believe they only make the latter, not? CMC5 I believe was the former generation body/amp. You could buy the CMC5 special order up until a few years ago but I think they finally discontinued it. I think the only difference is the CMC6 has some better RF interference blocking. I read somewhere ages ago Jim Williams had a simple mod for the CMCs to increase the low end and smooth out the high end more. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 18, 2024 13:27:37 GMT -6
It is nice to have both! I tend to find the pick sounds more natural with the Schoeps so I usually start with the Schoeps. For percussion probably the Schoeps because again I find the transients sound more realistic but it's really a toss up, I'd be perfectly happy with either one and go on making records. Ultimately they are more similar than dissimilar, and both will be quite a contrast to the 451. BTW both are great on vocals. For Overheads I lean towards the Schoeps which I find a bit smoother. The KM184 isn't a bad microphone, I've done records with them and it came out fine. The overall frequency balance is somewhat similar, it has that unmistakeable Neumann sound, but a little more Highs and Lows than the 84 and it doesn't smooth out the transients quite as much so it can sound harder. The biggest difference to my ears is the polar pattern, I feel like the 84 has an almost omni thing going compared to the KM184, hard to explain but really obvious when you hear it, and that makes it sit in a mix better. KM84’s are close to £2,000 on Reverb …. Yikes. The Schopes at £1300 isn’t cheap but it will be new and a little more affordable. It’s true SDC can work really well on vocals and get a bit forgotten over their LDC big brother. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 14:34:22 GMT -6
I really must not spend anymore of my children’s inheritance - but …. Which is the one to go for? LMAO.!
P.S sorry for mentioning the Schoeps in the other thread. Actually I'm not sorry, they're awesome..
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 18, 2024 17:23:37 GMT -6
I really must not spend anymore of my children’s inheritance - but …. Which is the one to go for? LMAO.!
P.S sorry for mentioning the Schoeps in the other thread. Actually I'm not sorry, they're awesome..
Yes SK you are to blame Now I’ve heard the clips brice kindly provided I can’t get that beautiful acoustic guitar sound out of my head. I must posses one Mind you his KM84 sounded great too in a different but equally great way. Just when you think you’ve finished your studio - there’s always one area to develop. I’ve always been short of a truly great SDC. This will be my last purchase ever. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 18, 2024 17:24:32 GMT -6
I bet the Schoeps Mk4 with my Millenia STT -1 will make a really great recording of a classical guitar!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 17:25:33 GMT -6
This will be my last purchase ever. Yeah, sure.. Okay, uhuh.. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 18, 2024 17:29:12 GMT -6
This will be my last purchase ever. Yeah, sure.. Okay, uhuh.. Well stop making brilliant gear suggestions! I was almost happy with my 451e until you mentioned the Schoeps and it reminded me I’ve never really invested in a great SDC. That moment has arrived |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 19, 2024 2:31:05 GMT -6
Can't go wrong with either IMO. I think the mk21 is more versatile and better all around but nothing wrong with the MK4 either. I use Schoeps mics a lot. They never disappoint.
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 19, 2024 3:26:15 GMT -6
You can find 84s quite a bit cheaper than £2000 if you are patient but yeah the prices have really shot up in the last 3-4 years.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 19, 2024 3:40:16 GMT -6
You can find 84s quite a bit cheaper than £2000 if you are patient but yeah the prices have really shot up in the last 3-4 years. One more question. Just checking a few forums it seems most folk get into various stereo micing methods and XY - M and S - Spaced Pairs etc only for about 75% of people returning to simply micing up in mono. Mono actually seems the most popular method - on the basis that of course an acoustic guitar is a mono instrument when you think about it. Do you mix mono? A stereo pair of sdc is very very expensive the Schoeps would be £2,600 .... Mrs Tenor will not be happy! |
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 19, 2024 4:05:43 GMT -6
I tend to do mono acoustics. All the records I love have mono acoustics and every time I've tracked stereo acoustic guitars I find I lose a bit of focus, and the middle often sounds a bit hollow to my ears. I also tend to record bands live so stereo acoustic guitar micing isn't really practical most of the time.
Even when I've recorded solo acoustic guitar work I've used a single close mic and if I'm in a nice concert hall I'll have stereo rooms, or I'll add some stereo ambiance with Reverb or Delay and it works great to add some subtle spread without losing a strong center image. Anyway like you say it's not like there really is stereo information going on with guitar.
Take all this with a grain of salt since I tend to mix drums mono also, unless I'm working on heavy rock which isn't too often.
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