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Post by thehightenor on Jan 19, 2024 4:19:39 GMT -6
I tend to do mono acoustics. All the records I love have mono acoustics and every time I've tracked stereo acoustic guitars I find I lose a bit of focus, and the middle often sounds a bit hollow to my ears. I also tend to record bands live so stereo acoustic guitar micing isn't really practical most of the time. Even when I've recorded solo acoustic guitar work I've used a single close mic and if I'm in a nice concert hall I'll have stereo rooms, or I'll add some stereo ambiance with Reverb or Delay and it works great to add some subtle spread without losing a strong center image. Anyway like you say it's not like there really is stereo information going on with guitar. Take all this with a grain of salt since I tend to mix drums mono also, unless I'm working on heavy rock which isn't too often. I've always been mono too. I've done some mid and side (after hearing a great sounding Sting record done that way) but mono is also my main appraoch. Thanks for your thoughts. |
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Post by christopher on Jan 19, 2024 11:10:32 GMT -6
I bet the Schoeps Mk4 with my Millenia STT -1 will make a really great recording of a classical guitar! Schoeps and Millenia is good enough for Hollywood/ spare no expense audio, I have seen that first hand. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2024 11:23:14 GMT -6
I've always been mono too. I've done some mid and side (after hearing a great sounding Sting record done that way) but mono is also my main appraoch. Thanks for your thoughts. I've used a mixture of both, generally it's a spaced bar for accuracy purposes so I don't get much phase cancellation. However if I can do mono on anything I will do it, there's far less chance of anything going wrong. If you want that stereo effect try dual tracking with a couple of different guitars and panning a bit, the most impressive / wide sounding guitars has IME come from dual mono, even with banjo's it's cool. Then again I am into the whole modern pop out the speakers, crystal clear thing and sometimes people just want a natural roomy background guitar sound, I understand that perfectly it's just a different preference.
So which way are you swaying Tenor?
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 19, 2024 14:12:14 GMT -6
I've always been mono too. I've done some mid and side (after hearing a great sounding Sting record done that way) but mono is also my main appraoch. Thanks for your thoughts. I've used a mixture of both, generally it's a spaced bar for accuracy purposes so I don't get much phase cancellation. However if I can do mono on anything I will do it, there's far less chance of anything going wrong. If you want that stereo effect try dual tracking with a couple of different guitars and panning a bit, the most impressive / wide sounding guitars has IME come from dual mono, even with banjo's it's cool. Then again I am into the whole modern pop out the speakers, crystal clear thing and sometimes people just want a natural roomy background guitar sound, I understand that perfectly it's just a different preference.
So which way are you swaying Tenor?
At this moment in time (with two kids at university) my budget runs to one high end SDC only. I have a pair of vintage AKG 451E’s but if I’m stepping up to a Schoeps MK4 then it will be mono. I also have a good options in mics to do mid and side recordings. But generally, I think it’s going to be mono and double tracked and panned if I want a big stereo image. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 19, 2024 14:19:49 GMT -6
I've used a mixture of both, generally it's a spaced bar for accuracy purposes so I don't get much phase cancellation. However if I can do mono on anything I will do it, there's far less chance of anything going wrong. If you want that stereo effect try dual tracking with a couple of different guitars and panning a bit, the most impressive / wide sounding guitars has IME come from dual mono, even with banjo's it's cool. Then again I am into the whole modern pop out the speakers, crystal clear thing and sometimes people just want a natural roomy background guitar sound, I understand that perfectly it's just a different preference.
So which way are you swaying Tenor?
At this moment in time (with two kids at university) my budget runs to one high end SDC only. I have a pair of vintage AKG 451E’s but if I’m stepping up to a Schoeps MK4 then it will be mono. I also have a good options in mics to do mid and side recordings. But generally, I think it’s going to be mono and double tracked and panned if I want a big stereo image. From memory for close micing the cardiod, the wide cardiod is better for distant work. To help with the tuition, check out the used pages of Trew Audio and others that deal mostly in location sound always lots of used Schoeps. Also on the cheap this guy mods old T-powered Schoeps pre’s to more modern 5’s. txsound.com/cmc4upgrade/cmc4upgrade.com.html |
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Post by LazyOldSun on Jan 19, 2024 19:43:48 GMT -6
So probably just a mono Schoeps for my pop rock productions. Which is the one to go for? Mk4 (cardioid) Mk41 (super cardioid) MK ?? Though you can't go wrong with either the MK4 or MK41, for mono guitar in pop rock productions I'd go with the MK41. I have both capsules you listed as well as a pair of KM84s. I love sdc mics especially when doing remote recording. The MK41 is a popular spot mic for orchestra work as well as for dialogue work in Film/TV. If looking for a used schoeps keep an eye on location sound stores. I have CMC6 bodies and some older CMC4 that were upgraded to use 48v rather than 12v T power. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 20, 2024 0:26:31 GMT -6
a cool way to record guitar in stereo is is a small A/B Pair but stacked vertically and pointed at the instrument. You'll have less imaging issues that way.
And genre dependent and of course room dependent but doing a mono close mic and stereo further out can be quite nice in a good room. For the right piece.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 20, 2024 1:26:59 GMT -6
At this moment in time (with two kids at university) my budget runs to one high end SDC only. I have a pair of vintage AKG 451E’s but if I’m stepping up to a Schoeps MK4 then it will be mono. I also have a good options in mics to do mid and side recordings. But generally, I think it’s going to be mono and double tracked and panned if I want a big stereo image. From memory for close micing the cardiod, the wide cardiod is better for distant work. To help with the tuition, check out the used pages of Trew Audio and others that deal mostly in location sound always lots of used Schoeps. Also on the cheap this guy mods old T-powered Schoeps pre’s to more modern 5’s. txsound.com/cmc4upgrade/cmc4upgrade.com.htmlA local dealer to me has a second hand CMC5 with MK4 for $800. But it only comes with a 3 month warranty and I don’t know how comfortable I am buying a second hand expensive SDC without knowing anything about its provenance. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 20, 2024 10:47:22 GMT -6
From memory for close micing the cardiod, the wide cardiod is better for distant work. To help with the tuition, check out the used pages of Trew Audio and others that deal mostly in location sound always lots of used Schoeps. Also on the cheap this guy mods old T-powered Schoeps pre’s to more modern 5’s. txsound.com/cmc4upgrade/cmc4upgrade.com.htmlA local dealer to me has a second hand CMC5 with MK4 for $800. But it only comes with a 3 month warranty and I don’t know how comfortable I am buying a second hand expensive SDC without knowing anything about its provenance. Check with your credit card provider to see if they will extend the warranty or if any of the prepaid cards do, or you could probably get an extended direct from one of the companies. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 20, 2024 11:00:42 GMT -6
A local dealer to me has a second hand CMC5 with MK4 for $800. But it only comes with a 3 month warranty and I don’t know how comfortable I am buying a second hand expensive SDC without knowing anything about its provenance. Check with your credit card provider to see if they will extend the warranty or if any of the prepaid cards do, or you could probably get an extended direct from one of the companies. Good idea - thank you. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 22, 2024 9:22:51 GMT -6
I'm having a small wobble - I was about to click BUY on my Schoeps MK4 and then I thought ....
My Martin D-18 is a dark woody guitar, is the MK4 going to sound to dark and full for a mahogany dreadnaught?
I know folk love the 000-28 for recording but when I picked up this particular D-18 I had to posses it and now
its my main studio guitar (I have a Cole Clark too)
So, one further question is the MK4 going to be OK with my D-18?
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Post by ericn on Jan 22, 2024 9:39:59 GMT -6
I'm having a small wobble - I was about to click BUY on my Schoeps MK4 and then I thought .... My Martin D-18 is a dark woody guitar, is the MK4 going to sound to dark and full for a mahogany dreadnaught? I know folk love the 000-28 for recording but when I picked up this particular D-18 I had to posses it and now its my main studio guitar (I have a Cole Clark too) So, one further question is the MK4 going to be OK with my D-18? I understand the trepidation, but I’ll say this; the Schoeps are some of the most neutral mics ever made, overall it’s going to give you a great representation of any guitar. Now is it the sound you want from your D18? Don’t know, but that’s any mic. While you may not be able to return a used Schoeps if you don’t like it, it is a mic you can flip without to much trouble time or loss. Damn, rereading this I still sound like a gearpimp trying to calm a nervous client and close a deal. |
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Post by LazyOldSun on Jan 22, 2024 10:14:05 GMT -6
The schoeps sound is generally considered smooth rather than dark. I find it can sit in a mix without needing eq, but a little top end can sound great.
All my schoeps have been bought used. If it’s working well in the return period, i highly doubt you will run into a problem afterwards.
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 22, 2024 10:16:23 GMT -6
I'm having a small wobble - I was about to click BUY on my Schoeps MK4 and then I thought .... My Martin D-18 is a dark woody guitar, is the MK4 going to sound to dark and full for a mahogany dreadnaught? I know folk love the 000-28 for recording but when I picked up this particular D-18 I had to posses it and now its my main studio guitar (I have a Cole Clark too) So, one further question is the MK4 going to be OK with my D-18? I’ve recorded dozens of D18 with my Schoeps. Always came out great! But I don’t have super modern taste , I like a more woody, mid forward acoustic tone vs smiley faced bright tone. And anyway I feel the Schoeps can be easily eqed as they don’t have a baked in sound. Also the pick never sounds unnatural which I often find is something that bothers me with cheaper sdcs. Plus you already have a 451 which in my mind is the king for bright acoustic tones. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 22, 2024 10:34:12 GMT -6
I'm having a small wobble - I was about to click BUY on my Schoeps MK4 and then I thought .... My Martin D-18 is a dark woody guitar, is the MK4 going to sound to dark and full for a mahogany dreadnaught? I know folk love the 000-28 for recording but when I picked up this particular D-18 I had to posses it and now its my main studio guitar (I have a Cole Clark too) So, one further question is the MK4 going to be OK with my D-18? I’ve recorded dozens of D18 with my Schoeps. Always came out great! But I don’t have super modern taste , I like a more woody, mid forward acoustic tone vs smiley faced bright tone. And anyway I feel the Schoeps can be easily eqed as they don’t have a baked in sound. Also the pick never sounds unnatural which I often find is something that bothers me with cheaper sdcs. Plus you already have a 451 which in my mind is the king for bright acoustic tones. Thanks, great. I don’t like bright tones either I prefer beautiful clarity in the mids. If you’ve recorded a D-18 and been happy that’s kinda what I wanted to hear - and I’ve learnt - great makes take EQ brilliantly because everything has been captured. |
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Post by ab101 on Jan 22, 2024 10:50:36 GMT -6
I'm having a small wobble - I was about to click BUY on my Schoeps MK4 and then I thought .... My Martin D-18 is a dark woody guitar, is the MK4 going to sound to dark and full for a mahogany dreadnaught? I know folk love the 000-28 for recording but when I picked up this particular D-18 I had to posses it and now its my main studio guitar (I have a Cole Clark too) So, one further question is the MK4 going to be OK with my D-18? DPA 4011s are great and do not darken. I should add that I have a pair of Schoeps with the MK22 caps - and they do not seem dark to me. |
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 22, 2024 11:12:45 GMT -6
I’ve done records where pretty much everything was recorded through Schoeps mic and it always worked, some mics could have been better but it worked fine. This is a preamp test I did a couple years back: Everything you hear is recorded with a Schoeps mk41 into a Tree Branch except for the bass which is DIed ( thru the Tree also) www.dropbox.com/s/j1eas0hydt34xd2/TREE.mp3?dl=0Btw one of the strummed acoustic is a D18, but it’s a bit blurred because it’s doubled with a parlor guitar but nothing sounds dark to me, everything sounds balanced and I feel is a good representation of how things sounded in the room. Btw I don’t work for Schoeps haha! |
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 22, 2024 11:34:45 GMT -6
I'm having a small wobble - I was about to click BUY on my Schoeps MK4 and then I thought .... My Martin D-18 is a dark woody guitar, is the MK4 going to sound to dark and full for a mahogany dreadnaught? I know folk love the 000-28 for recording but when I picked up this particular D-18 I had to posses it and now its my main studio guitar (I have a Cole Clark too) So, one further question is the MK4 going to be OK with my D-18? DPA 4011s are great and do not darken. I should add that I have a pair of Schoeps with the MK22 caps - and they do not seem dark to me. Dpas are definitely brighter, I like dpas on stringed instruments but have always a little trouble with them on drums where they seem a tad too agressive for my taste, never got them to play with cymbals as nicely as the Schoeps. Very nice on hand percussion though, tablas and such. Ultimately when you get to that level of mic anyway they’re all pretty great in their own right |
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Post by ab101 on Jan 22, 2024 12:15:06 GMT -6
DPA 4011s are great and do not darken. I should add that I have a pair of Schoeps with the MK22 caps - and they do not seem dark to me. Dpas are definitely brighter, I like dpas on stringed instruments but have always a little trouble with them on drums where they seem a tad too agressive for my taste, never got them to play with cymbals as nicely as the Schoeps. Very nice on hand percussion though, tablas and such. Ultimately when you get to that level of mic anyway they’re all pretty great in their own right Great points. I do prefer the Josephson E22s mics for tablas, doumbek, etc. over DPA or Schoeps. And as to the DPAs, you are correct. The DPAs are great when the source is so rich, you do not want to add any richess. I am hoping to check out the Samar MG32 and MG33 mics. I understand they will be at NAMM. I hope people reach out to Mark at Samar there. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 22, 2024 15:10:21 GMT -6
I’ve done records where pretty much everything was recorded through Schoeps mic and it always worked, some mics could have been better but it worked fine. This is a preamp test I did a couple years back: Everything you hear is recorded with a Schoeps mk41 into a Tree Branch except for the bass which is DIed ( thru the Tree also) www.dropbox.com/s/j1eas0hydt34xd2/TREE.mp3?dl=0Btw one of the strummed acoustic is a D18, but it’s a bit blurred because it’s doubled with a parlor guitar but nothing sounds dark to me, everything sounds balanced and I feel is a good representation of how things sounded in the room. Btw I don’t work for Schoeps haha! Nice! That recording does have a lovely richness to it - very detailed but not overly bright and lovely mids - those are the qualities I like in a recording. The Branch is a lovely unit! |
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 22, 2024 15:26:26 GMT -6
I’ve done records where pretty much everything was recorded through Schoeps mic and it always worked, some mics could have been better but it worked fine. This is a preamp test I did a couple years back: Everything you hear is recorded with a Schoeps mk41 into a Tree Branch except for the bass which is DIed ( thru the Tree also) www.dropbox.com/s/j1eas0hydt34xd2/TREE.mp3?dl=0Btw one of the strummed acoustic is a D18, but it’s a bit blurred because it’s doubled with a parlor guitar but nothing sounds dark to me, everything sounds balanced and I feel is a good representation of how things sounded in the room. Btw I don’t work for Schoeps haha! Nice! That recording does have a lovely richness to it - very detailed but not overly bright and lovely mids - those are the qualities I like in a recording. The Branch is a lovely unit! Yeah it’s very detailed but rarely hard sounding, it’s a cool unit. I’m a small operation so I kept only the Coils for my home setup and overall I’m getting where I want to go faster than with the Tree. I wish I could’ve kept it just for the looks!! |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 22, 2024 16:33:21 GMT -6
Nice! That recording does have a lovely richness to it - very detailed but not overly bright and lovely mids - those are the qualities I like in a recording. The Branch is a lovely unit! Yeah it’s very detailed but rarely hard sounding, it’s a cool unit. I’m a small operation so I kept only the Coils for my home setup and overall I’m getting where I want to go faster than with the Tree. I wish I could’ve kept it just for the looks!! It’s a great unit by all accounts. I think it’s by the guys who designed the Inward Connections stuff. I saw a YouTube video of jj Blair’s studio and he was raving about the IC modular rack of tube pres/ EQ/ comps - he said he still tracks all his vocals with it. I’ve heard him say he considers The Branch to be in the same league - so that’s a resounding endorsement. I love my Coil CA70 but if I ever had the spare cash I’d love to own The Branch II  |
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 22, 2024 16:58:46 GMT -6
It sounds great on acoustic instruments. It is very revealing but for what I do I need a little more dirt.
I found myself having to use tape plugins or saturators a lot with the Tree, barely ever do that with the Coil.
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Post by bowie on Jan 22, 2024 17:19:23 GMT -6
I went down this rabbit hole a few years ago and found a few things;
-First, you made a good choice. I'm fussy about mics but these thigs just sound "right". I've fought with a lot of SDCs, including Neumanns, that always made acoustics sound like they were missing something vs what I was hearing in the room. After getting my CMC6s 5 or 6 years ago I haven't thought about getting any more SDCs. Just capsules.
-Many, myself included, feel the omni caps are the best the sound mic can deliver, if the room allows for it. But, that's not always practical so choose based on your needs. They all sound great. Even the super-cardioids.
-The MK21 and 22 are both very popular and a good way to go if you aren't sure about committing to omni or cardioid.
-I have some of the switchable heads and love them, though there might be a slight HF lift with these.
-When buying used, be aware that many location guys are selling the 'S' versions (I think that's what they are called) which have a built-in high-pass. You don't want that.
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Post by bowie on Jan 22, 2024 17:33:19 GMT -6
I'm having a small wobble - I was about to click BUY on my Schoeps MK4 and then I thought .... My Martin D-18 is a dark woody guitar, is the MK4 going to sound to dark and full for a mahogany dreadnaught? I know folk love the 000-28 for recording but when I picked up this particular D-18 I had to posses it and now its my main studio guitar (I have a Cole Clark too) So, one further question is the MK4 going to be OK with my D-18? In my experience, if the guitar sounds right to you, you'll be good. Of all the mics I've used, they are the ones I'm most confident in for capturing the source as I hear it. There may be more accurate mics out there but, the way we perceive things, the most accurate gear doesn't always sound the most natural. Sometimes, more accurate gear can sound odd and unnatural compared to the sound we hear in the room. I also don't think of these as dark mics whatsoever, personally. They just aren't top-aggressive like some people expect an SCD to be. My voice can sound really boomy on a lot of LDCs and I've even sung into the CMC6 MK41s to get a tighter sound. |
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