ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098 
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Post by ericn on Jan 19, 2024 19:23:20 GMT -6
First I like the KMS105, great stage mic, underrated as a project studio mic. Hell yesterday I mounted a 105 head with an ambient adapter on a Shure wireless handheld to go out with a bunch of 58’s. Your post sounds like your falling into a misunderstanding even a lot of seasoned pros fall into, the concept that certain polar patterns have more overall rejection than others. If you take an Omni capsule and turn it into a cardiod, hyper cardiod or super cardiod your not going to increase or decrease the over all rejection your simply focusing the same amount of rejection or pickup area in different places. A KMS105 is going to have a narrower pickup in the front, but that is going to vary with frequency, while you will not have the notch 180 degrees off axis instead you have a big lobe of pickup with very little pickup to the sides in the rear. What does this mean for you? First think of the pattern in 3D, now where this can be problematic is and I’m making the assumption that you want to play and sing at the same time, that lobe will probably be positioned at a downward angle and there is a very good chance it’s going to pickup a very narrow portion of your guitar. The thing is your probably not going to manage to balance it and get away with a single mic like you can with a figure 8 because you won’t be still enough to keep that lobe covering the same position on the guitar, the frequency response of the guitar is going to change as you move. Second as far as vocals you will probably find that pickup pretty narrow and force yourself to move a lot less. Some who have really really good handheld mic control can use the extreme areas where the frequency response varies as an effect, but for most it’s a source of frustration. The rear lobe of any hyper or super cardiod ( or shotgun) is a major often forgotten pain in the ass, if it isn’t picking up something like a an acoustic, it invariably seams to pick up HVAC or some other unwanted noise. One of the reasons the SM7 is so often recommended to musicians who want to just record is that its overall rejection has a lot to do with its overall low output/ sensitivity. You can pretty much put it in front of someone and they can sing and play without much thought and get a better than average vocal. Their are plenty of mics that most will agree are sonically better mics, but what most don’t understand is that it isn’t the best mic for the $ it’s the easiest to put up and run with even if you increase the price range times 10! This is why pros recommend it besides that yeah it worked on the best selling album of all time. This is also why I suggested a used 635a as part of your kit, it’s Omni pattern makes it the anti cardiod derivative. No matter what angle the source addresses a Natural Omni it’s going to sound the same. If I sang through an sm7 and mic’d the acoustic up with and LDC in figure 8, I would still have to make sure the capsules are lined up to avoid phase issues correct? Or would it be better to have the ldc in cardioid pointed downward toward the guitar so that the backside of it is rejecting the vocal? If you really really want phase accurate recording in theory yes but 2 important points you would need to align the diaphragms not the windscreens and mics would have to have the same phase response. So in the real world as much as I hate “ we can fix it in the mix” easier to align the tracks. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 19, 2024 21:47:16 GMT -6
If you’re going that route, I’d absolutely try the LDC in fig-8 on the guitar, angled slightly down so that the null is pointed at your mouth. If you’re close up on the SM7b, it can work quite well. It can also work well if the vocal mic is *also* a fig-8 with *its* null pointed at the guitar. If my memory serves, wiz records this way. |
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Post by wiz on Jan 20, 2024 0:17:55 GMT -6
If you’re going that route, I’d absolutely try the LDC in fig-8 on the guitar, angled slightly down so that the null is pointed at your mouth. If you’re close up on the SM7b, it can work quite well. It can also work well if the vocal mic is *also* a fig-8 with *its* null pointed at the guitar. If my memory serves, wiz records this way. he he he,... look at the 7th post in this thread.... 8) cheers Wiz |
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Post by theshea on Jan 20, 2024 0:21:36 GMT -6
if you want to record vocal and acoustic all at once a phase alignment like radix autoalign or melda align plugins can come in handy. even if its not easy to be always in phase as you may move while playing. but i use melda and it most always makes phase better. also try not to close mike the acoustic guitar, thats also better for phase.
the „cleanest“ option would be overdubbing. first record your guitar, maybe in stereo and than your vocal. but this way you loose some meat and realness IMO.
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Post by skav on Jan 20, 2024 1:32:24 GMT -6
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 20, 2024 10:23:55 GMT -6
If you’re going that route, I’d absolutely try the LDC in fig-8 on the guitar, angled slightly down so that the null is pointed at your mouth. If you’re close up on the SM7b, it can work quite well. It can also work well if the vocal mic is *also* a fig-8 with *its* null pointed at the guitar. If my memory serves, wiz records this way. he he he,... look at the 7th post in this thread.... 8) cheers Wiz OMG I’m a loser 🤦♂️ |
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Post by bossanova on Jan 20, 2024 15:55:21 GMT -6
Do keep in mind, very often when neve flavor is mentioned its the 1290 (1073, 1081). The 88 is something very different. If you settle for the plugin route regarding flavor, to start with, while tracking the Apollo might be down your alley. I say settle because I've done that trip. And it goes something like this… one two three four There will be a real life difference in tracking thru nice hw pre and a nice comp if you have a nice mic to begin with. But that said, I can enjoy taking my Apollo twin down to the lake side cottage, plug my Soyuz 1973 into it or a stereo set of ribbons in blumlein configuration, tweak in some 610 pre’s in the unison and a LA2a in the inserts and track away. It sure will not be the same depth and dynamics as I get with my hardware in the studio, but I can appreciate it and I really do enjoy what the Apollo and it’s unison can offer me on the road with an ease. This would neither be a waste of investment. I also do run my studio thru the same Apollo these days. 8 super nice hw pre’s in thru ADAT thru really nice compressors. And while mixing I use the line out and ins for my hw mixbus. Despite im considering a larger interface, the Apollo twin actually still does it for me and have given years of great use. And however I would still keep it for mixing and tracking on the road. So the Apollo twin is sure something I can recommend that you can still build around and is actually really cool and neat in it’s kitschy way. The heritage edition comes with great plugin set that covers well for me what I would mix a singer songwriter track on the road with and be all hunky dory about it. You make a good point. I just found this video and you can definitely hear a difference between the 1073 and 88 sound. The 88 isn’t a bad sound by any means but not as much character as the 1073. A little brighter. The 88 still has a nice depth about it. More than many consumer interface on-board preamps that I’ve used. The Apollo is an amazing piece of gear. I just don’t think it’s the tool I’m looking for. If it helps, I’m a few years farther down the road but I started with similar goals to yours. I’ve really found that the right *type* of microphone and the room/mic placement have made more difference in getting the sound that i’m looking for vs differences in preamp, processing, or interface. Example: putting various transformers in the path has made a subtle difference at best for me, but going straight into the interface and swapping in an LDC or SDC in place of a dynamic has done wonders when it got me the vocal sound I was hearing in my head. Likewise, eating an LDC and all the corrective EQ in the world doesn’t have the same sound as having temporary treatment set up in a larger space and being able to get 6-12” off the mic. The same goes for trying to EQ out an annoying presence boost when I really wanted a flatter mic design. Just some thoughts. I use almost everything I’ve bought at least a couple times a year, but if I could go back I would start out with bass trapping and gobos and then start auditioning some mics. |
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Post by theshea on Jan 28, 2024 4:20:31 GMT -6
Hi all, First poster here. I used to be an aspiring engineer. I gave up that aspiration several years ago. I was focused on trying to build a career/future. However, I’ve gotten back into playing acoustic and trying to write songs. Now, I want to start recording them. Here’s where I need your help. I have no clue where to start. I had the privilege of getting to observe some sessions in higher end studios and one thing I really liked was the sound of mics hitting tubes and transformer. I don’t have much interest in the digital emulating analog thing. It’s just gonna be me and an acoustic guitar. I know an sm7b is probably gonna be my vocal mic of choice as I’m familiar with it and I’ll be in an untreated space with some makeshift booth setup. Probably an 414 type, sdc, or ribbon for acoustic guitar. Im kind of lost in the interface/preamps department. Like I said hitting transformers/tubes on the way in is what I’m most interested in. Most audio interfaces at the consumer level don’t have preamps you can bypass with outboard gear. Tl;dr. But thank you for your consideration. Hi Welcome... You probably won't like my answer....but it comes from experience and thousands of dollars spent on shit I didn't need. I would sort out the room and your monitoring first. Doesn't have to be expensive but you do need to sort it out. You could have a V72preamp an LA2A and a 176.. with a U47 for vocals and a KM84 for guitar... and in a bad room with shit monitoring get dusted by a cheap interface and way cheaper mics. Also, you don't know really, if you will keep doing this long term. Just recording vocals and acoustic at the same time...I would get two figure 8 Mics...and position them so the nulls are at the opposite of the source you are recording... eg vocal rejects guitar... even getting an interface with preamps first (like a Apollo Twin X, and some powered Adams A7 monitors, room correction software and acoustic treatment would be a good start, and you can get going and sort out acoustics, and then flip that stuff I you desire down the track) Here is two examples... Me at Sun Studios in Memphis... And me back in Australia recording a client...both videos feature ribbon mics (fig 8) cheers Wiz hey wiz, inspired by your "I'm On Fire" recordings I did abuse the song for my own testing ;-) recorded my version with my neve clones (AMLez73 and Golden Age Premier Pre73) and second version only with my RME FF400 preamps. Details version 1: Neve clones w/outboardPlayed and recorded live – only the arp guitar is overdubbed. Acoustic guitar Sigma J45 copy > AA 127 Warbler w/lo-cut > AMLez73: EQ on / 80Hz lo-cut / 220Hz lo-shelf -1,5 / hi-shelf -0,5 > Stam ADG76 model D: Att2 Rel6 4:1 GR 3-7dB Vocal > Violet Design Amethyst Vintage > Golden Age Premier pre73 lo-cut 80Hz > Klark Teknik 1176: Att0 Rel7 4:1 GR 5-7dB I used Melda Prod. Autoalign plugin for phase alignment in logic https%3A//soundcloud.com/zinzin/imonfire-neveamlgap/s-CngY3na7NRZ%3Fsi%3D752541f1e7be4b698edafea5efdeaf64%26amp%3Butm_source%3Dclipboard%26amp%3Butm_medium%3Dtext%26amp%3Butm_campaign%3Dsocial_sharingDetails version 2: RME w/pluginsPlayed and recorded live – only the arp guitar is overdubbed. Same as above ONLY everything went straight trough the preamps of my RME FF400. I tried to simulate the outboard EQ and compression with Softube BCA (for the neve's) and PA purple MC76 for the 1176's. again Melda prod. Autoalign for phase alignment. https%3A//soundcloud.com/zinzin/imonfire-rme/s-s1y2aIyk6cS%3Fsi%3Dd97872416e1a4c8b8beed05e2b609b18%26amp%3Butm_source%3Dclipboard%26amp%3Butm_medium%3Dtext%26amp%3Butm_campaign%3Dsocial_sharing
Details version 3: overdubbing with Neve clones and outboard
Same as version 1 expect everything is overdubbed: first the guitars than the vocal. No phase issues this way. Outboard and preamps as on version 1. https%3A//soundcloud.com/zinzin/imonfire-neveamlgap-overdub/s-akfoC3pkQJK%3Fsi%3D396d695e059a49788419f229d277ca95%26amp%3Butm_source%3Dclipboard%26amp%3Butm_medium%3Dtext%26amp%3Butm_campaign%3Dsocial_sharing... so this are my variants. The overdubbing version is off course the cleanest one because there are no phase issues. although i think melda autoalign corrects it very quickly, but it can be hit and miss. i personally would ALWAYS prefer and record with outboard, with EQ and comp! as to me it gives the most finished sounds, which is my prefered workflow. overdubbing or live recording depends ... live sounds immediately thicker but can cause phase issues and playing/singing errors and editing can be problems. but sometimes overdubbing everything could sound sterile, to clean. but ... with overdubbing you can buy one very good chain and use it for all tracks! so that would be my main start if starting over from scratch: buy one very good preamp, maybe with EQ or a channelstrip with lo-cut and the EQ for broad sound tailoring. than one good and versatile comp. and 2 good mics (SCD and LCD) should work fine for a lot of recordings. my recording chain for version 1 (mics, preamps, comps) cost me around 3.000 Euro. |
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Post by theshea on Jan 28, 2024 5:02:14 GMT -6
also: i played and sung very quietly. so hard work for the chain.
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Post by wiz on Jan 28, 2024 19:36:49 GMT -6
also: i played and sung very quietly. so hard work for the chain. Cool Stuff.... If you really want to get into the singing and playing and capturing the acoustic and voice live... a pair of fig 8 mics are your best bet..IMHO Like your test I could never minimise the phase enough using the SDC LDC approach. the rejection of the fig 8 is fantastic.... cheers Wiz |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jan 28, 2024 21:52:41 GMT -6
The other option is to use 1 mic... I've done this many times, usually with my Royer SF-12 Stereo Ribbon, and have achieved wonderful results.
You can use it as a typical stereo mic, setup in front of the performer, and or place it perpendicular to the 2 sound sources, thus putting the null of each capsule, right where you need it.
Absolutely beautiful sound, with GREAT rejection.
I'm a huge fan of this type of recording and to that end, I thought I'd take it a step further. So about a year or so ago, I had Josephson build me one of their C700S mics.
3 capsules, 1 mic, basically a mid / side mic in one housing with three outputs, which allows you to record each to isolated tracks, and mix later.
Obviously positioning of the mic in either of these examples, is everything, getting the right voice to guitar (ratio) blend is the whole deal.
Here's a clip of the single Josephson mic in action.
If I can find some audio that I can post of the single SF-12 in action, I'll do it.
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Post by wiz on Jan 28, 2024 22:46:21 GMT -6
The one mic thing can be great
Here is me doing just that with my u87
Cheers Wiz
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jan 29, 2024 14:44:55 GMT -6
Very intimate...
Beautiful.
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Post by theshea on Jan 30, 2024 6:22:27 GMT -6
also: i played and sung very quietly. so hard work for the chain. Cool Stuff.... If you really want to get into the singing and playing and capturing the acoustic and voice live... a pair of fig 8 mics are your best bet..IMHO Like your test I could never minimise the phase enough using the SDC LDC approach. the rejection of the fig 8 is fantastic.... cheers Wiz just tested with my two NoHype Audio LRM2 ribbon mic. noisy. fitting for an old style campfire retro sound but for other stuff played quietly to noisy. the rejection because of figure eight is excellent though. i have a rode nt2a which i could test with figure eight. less noisy. |
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Post by plinker on Jan 30, 2024 9:15:55 GMT -6
Cool Stuff.... If you really want to get into the singing and playing and capturing the acoustic and voice live... a pair of fig 8 mics are your best bet..IMHO Like your test I could never minimise the phase enough using the SDC LDC approach. the rejection of the fig 8 is fantastic.... cheers Wiz just tested with my two NoHype Audio LRM2 ribbon mic. noisy. fitting for an old style campfire retro sound but for other stuff played quietly to noisy. the rejection because of figure eight is excellent though. i have a rode nt2a which i could test with figure eight. less noisy. Are all ribbon mics noisy? I’ve used only a couple and they were OK noise-wise, but more than I prefer on quiet sources. |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 30, 2024 12:42:24 GMT -6
My limited understanding is that they usually have virtually no self-noise.
Usually maxing out the Gain, on a typical Interface Pre is the culprit.
JP Gerard/No Hype is a cool Dude.
I'd contact him.
Chris
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Post by chessparov on Jan 30, 2024 12:44:22 GMT -6
he he he,... look at the 7th post in this thread.... 8) cheers Wiz OMG I’m a loser 🤦♂️ LOVE that Beatles song!! Probably the lowest bottom note John ever sung with them.  Chris |
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Post by theshea on Jan 30, 2024 12:59:12 GMT -6
My limited understanding is that they usually have virtually no self-noise. Usually maxing out the Gain, on a typical Interface Pre is the culprit. JP Gerard/No Hype is a cool Dude. I'd contact him. Chris i think the LRM2‘s just work fine. i simply played and sung very quietly and the neve preamps had to work hard. bit yeah, jp is a cool dude. |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 30, 2024 13:23:14 GMT -6
Don't know if I'd go as low as KT as a line booster.
Probably at least Fet Head.
Then Cloudlifter or Soyuz Launcher.*
Chris
P.S. IMHO best to have a smooth Pre like
yours, combined with the Launcher.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
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Post by ericn on Jan 31, 2024 20:45:32 GMT -6
Not the Godfather of Soul or Aretha!! Lest Thou checkest Soul Train... Before you cast the first stone. LOL! (Cues Get On The Good Foot/Soul Train) Chris P.S. It's a shame that during their heyday... Paul Revere and the Raiders AFAIK don't have any existing/actual "Live Footage". One of the best Rock Bands, supposedly live. Mark Lindsay. What a voice!! Danny Krause who played Keyboards for the Raiders since the 80’s is my high school Music teachers brother. |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 31, 2024 20:50:54 GMT -6
At Oakland and/or L.A. Half Times too?  Chris |
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