|
|
Post by plinker on Jan 18, 2024 10:03:36 GMT -6
Don't go down the preamp rabbit hole. You will probably be broke and disappointed. After you decide on a decent interface and a couple of mics, then...
find a good compressor -- you can get your tube/transformer goodness during processing instead the preamp.
|
|
|
|
Post by lildonut92 on Jan 18, 2024 10:37:10 GMT -6
Don't go down the preamp rabbit hole. You will probably be broke and disappointed. After you decide on a decent interface and a couple of mics, then... find a good compressor -- you can get your tube/transformer goodness during processing instead the preamp. This makes a whole lotta sense. I do think preamps down the road wouldn’t be a terrible idea but it’s def not a priority as long as my vocal and acoustic guitar signals are seeing some transformer/tube goodness on the way in. |
|
|
|
Post by svart on Jan 18, 2024 10:43:43 GMT -6
Since you say it's been a while since you have been recording and are just getting back into it, I'd say that a lot of newer interfaces are perfectly fine to use and a lot better than they were even a few years ago.
Even if it's something as simple as a MOTU M4 or SSL2+, they're very usable and neutral sounding so you can get your tone from the mics if desired. After doing this for decades, I'd have no issue using them if I needed to.
You could step up to a larger interface with LINE inputs and use an external 500 lunchbox with a few preamps in it, but the price is comparatively higher.
I'd go with a pair of MK012 Oktavas or some Lewitt mics to start. They'll always be workhorse mics.
|
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Jan 18, 2024 10:47:51 GMT -6
You will need an external pre if you want to track through compression.
But I agree with the others that the preamp is not the biggest piece of the puzzle, sonics-wise.
|
|
|
|
Post by theshea on Jan 18, 2024 10:57:41 GMT -6
i will repeat the neve 88m „could“ be perfect: it has 2 preamps with transformers and good conversion. and with the send and returns you could also use compression while tracking.
you can hear it vs uad apollo twin here:
its portable, preamp and audiointerface all in one. sounds like a record/neve sound. this and a sm7b (which is your fave) and maybe used SDC for your acoustic guitar and you‘re done.
its not exactly cheap and it does not offer a lot of functionality but what it does it does very well.
|
|
|
|
Post by skav on Jan 18, 2024 11:01:54 GMT -6
You will need an external pre if you want to track through compression. But I agree with the others that the preamp is not the biggest piece of the puzzle, sonics-wise. Neve 88M has insert & return, which allows for a compressor in the chain of both channels before conversion. Since he needs a interface and understandingly want transformer in his chain, this device is a good investment for the $. |
|
|
|
Post by lildonut92 on Jan 18, 2024 11:07:42 GMT -6
i will repeat the neve 88m „could“ be perfect: it has 2 preamps with transformers and good conversion. and with the send and returns you could also use compression while tracking. you can hear it vs uad apollo twin here: its portable, preamp and audiointerface all in one. sounds like a record/neve sound. this and a sm7b (which is your fave) and maybe used SDC for your acoustic guitar and you‘re done. its not exactly cheap and it does not offer a lot of functionality but what it does it does very well. Upon further review this may be the route I go. If I need an external pre with other interfaces in order to utilize tracking with compression that would probably an unnecessary expense when I could just get a neve flavored preamp within the interface and be able to track with compression. My main hesitation with the 88m is that it got some poor reviews but that seems to be from when it first launched. A lot of the more recent reviews are more positive and it seems that a lot of the early issues were fixed. |
|
|
|
Post by lildonut92 on Jan 18, 2024 11:30:38 GMT -6
To clarify, the sm7b is not my fave. I just know how it sounds on other voices and my own through experience. Not gonna lie, the clips I hear of the m88 make me think it’s bright and forward. The sm7 just sounds smoother to me. I like a dark-ish, smooth kind of sound from vocal mic.
I’m willing to bet a u47 would be my favorite mic of all time on my voice I just don’t think it or a good clone of it would be a wise selection given my circumstances.
I’m definitely considering other options. That ku5a ribbon mic sounds pretty sick from the things I’ve heard. It’s a little out of my budget but that’s the only other mic I’ve heard outside of the sm7 that I think could work in my situation.
|
|
|
|
Post by theshea on Jan 18, 2024 11:31:18 GMT -6
the neve 88m is more aimed to pro‘s that record singer/songwriter and need 1-2 channels and something portable for location recording with pro sound. it will simply work. no software problems as it has no software. so bulletproof i‘d say, also for the future.
i think the reviews noted more the missing functions other offer. but ask yourself: would you need them?
for more channels there‘s also ADAT.
|
|
|
|
Post by niklas1073 on Jan 18, 2024 11:58:15 GMT -6
i will repeat the neve 88m „could“ be perfect: it has 2 preamps with transformers and good conversion. and with the send and returns you could also use compression while tracking. you can hear it vs uad apollo twin here: its portable, preamp and audiointerface all in one. sounds like a record/neve sound. this and a sm7b (which is your fave) and maybe used SDC for your acoustic guitar and you‘re done. its not exactly cheap and it does not offer a lot of functionality but what it does it does very well. Upon further review this may be the route I go. If I need an external pre with other interfaces in order to utilize tracking with compression that would probably an unnecessary expense when I could just get a neve flavored preamp within the interface and be able to track with compression. My main hesitation with the 88m is that it got some poor reviews but that seems to be from when it first launched. A lot of the more recent reviews are more positive and it seems that a lot of the early issues were fixed. Do keep in mind, very often when neve flavor is mentioned its the 1290 (1073, 1081). The 88 is something very different. If you settle for the plugin route regarding flavor, to start with, while tracking the Apollo might be down your alley. I say settle because I've done that trip. And it goes something like this… one two three four There will be a real life difference in tracking thru nice hw pre and a nice comp if you have a nice mic to begin with. But that said, I can enjoy taking my Apollo twin down to the lake side cottage, plug my Soyuz 1973 into it or a stereo set of ribbons in blumlein configuration, tweak in some 610 pre’s in the unison and a LA2a in the inserts and track away. It sure will not be the same depth and dynamics as I get with my hardware in the studio, but I can appreciate it and I really do enjoy what the Apollo and it’s unison can offer me on the road with an ease. This would neither be a waste of investment. I also do run my studio thru the same Apollo these days. 8 super nice hw pre’s in thru ADAT thru really nice compressors. And while mixing I use the line out and ins for my hw mixbus. Despite im considering a larger interface, the Apollo twin actually still does it for me and have given years of great use. And however I would still keep it for mixing and tracking on the road. So the Apollo twin is sure something I can recommend that you can still build around and is actually really cool and neat in it’s kitschy way. The heritage edition comes with great plugin set that covers well for me what I would mix a singer songwriter track on the road with and be all hunky dory about it. |
|
|
|
Post by lildonut92 on Jan 18, 2024 13:01:18 GMT -6
Upon further review this may be the route I go. If I need an external pre with other interfaces in order to utilize tracking with compression that would probably an unnecessary expense when I could just get a neve flavored preamp within the interface and be able to track with compression. My main hesitation with the 88m is that it got some poor reviews but that seems to be from when it first launched. A lot of the more recent reviews are more positive and it seems that a lot of the early issues were fixed. Do keep in mind, very often when neve flavor is mentioned its the 1290 (1073, 1081). The 88 is something very different. If you settle for the plugin route regarding flavor, to start with, while tracking the Apollo might be down your alley. I say settle because I've done that trip. And it goes something like this… one two three four There will be a real life difference in tracking thru nice hw pre and a nice comp if you have a nice mic to begin with. But that said, I can enjoy taking my Apollo twin down to the lake side cottage, plug my Soyuz 1973 into it or a stereo set of ribbons in blumlein configuration, tweak in some 610 pre’s in the unison and a LA2a in the inserts and track away. It sure will not be the same depth and dynamics as I get with my hardware in the studio, but I can appreciate it and I really do enjoy what the Apollo and it’s unison can offer me on the road with an ease. This would neither be a waste of investment. I also do run my studio thru the same Apollo these days. 8 super nice hw pre’s in thru ADAT thru really nice compressors. And while mixing I use the line out and ins for my hw mixbus. Despite im considering a larger interface, the Apollo twin actually still does it for me and have given years of great use. And however I would still keep it for mixing and tracking on the road. So the Apollo twin is sure something I can recommend that you can still build around and is actually really cool and neat in it’s kitschy way. The heritage edition comes with great plugin set that covers well for me what I would mix a singer songwriter track on the road with and be all hunky dory about it. You make a good point. I just found this video and you can definitely hear a difference between the 1073 and 88 sound. The 88 isn’t a bad sound by any means but not as much character as the 1073. A little brighter. The 88 still has a nice depth about it. More than many consumer interface on-board preamps that I’ve used. The Apollo is an amazing piece of gear. I just don’t think it’s the tool I’m looking for. |
|
|
|
Post by bossanova on Jan 18, 2024 13:09:11 GMT -6
To clarify, the sm7b is not my fave. I just know how it sounds on other voices and my own through experience. Not gonna lie, the clips I hear of the m88 make me think it’s bright and forward. The sm7 just sounds smoother to me. I like a dark-ish, smooth kind of sound from vocal mic. I’m willing to bet a u47 would be my favorite mic of all time on my voice I just don’t think it or a good clone of it would be a wise selection given my circumstances. I’m definitely considering other options. That ku5a ribbon mic sounds pretty sick from the things I’ve heard. It’s a little out of my budget but that’s the only other mic I’ve heard outside of the sm7 that I think could work in my situation. Carlos Serrano's U87 clone is highly regarded here (I have one, and there are other members here who have bought and compared it to their own vintage 87s and given it a thumbs up) and it's a bit darker than modern U87i models. Great all-round mic. |
|
|
|
Post by tkaitkai on Jan 18, 2024 13:38:04 GMT -6
The 88M gets you a Neve preamp, pre-ADC inserts and returns, and an interface with (presumably great) AD/DA all in one. Get that + the Stam and you have a killer front end that will allow you to grow as budget allows. Start with an SM7 and when you have the funds for a good U47 copy, your interface and compressor will continue to serve you well.
Also (I mean this as respectfully as possible) forget about "subtle" compression! Go crazy with it and see what happens. Worst case scenario, you don't like it. You can just back off a little bit. You're looking at some great outboard pieces — USE them!
I used to never touch the EQ on my channel strip, and I would record vocals 8" off the mic, terrified that any slight deviation would ruin my vocal takes. Then one day, I decided to try eating the mic + doing a massive low frequency/low mid cut, and voilà — best vocal sound I've ever gotten by a landslide.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 14:06:59 GMT -6
Everyone is correct that monitors and room treatment are really important. But they're more important for mixing than they are for tracking. You can get by with makeshift treatment for tracking guitar / vocals if you really use your ears and are careful about mic placement. Then do rough mixes on the 701's, check them on every system you own, and come back and finish the mixes on 701's. Y'know what, I promise I'm not trying to be contrarian here (cause I do it a lot) but IME unless you go all out I think monitors and treatment are nothing but detrimental. It's been a lot of, umm I'd like to say trial & error but it's mainly just been error. I was adamant that, in my GIK kitted to the hilt small room with some Adam's, then Genelec's, then Sonodyne's, then whatever flavour of the month monitor that things would go swimmingly. No, it didn't.. I got strange high frequency phase / comb filtering when recording with a weird mix of dead sounding, I could hardly hear what the crap was going on and really, to make it work I'd have had to cut my legs off and live inside an ISO box (hopefully with some diffusion).
Not to mention that it was a bit of a death trap that room, so I dumped the monitors, made some gobbo's (then recorded in my living room) and relied on headphones for both tracking & mixing. Hey presto things went sooo much better.. Nowaday's I don't skimp and all is happy but it took a lot of doing to get here.. Also due to using headphones for years (because of bad acoustics in some studio's) even now I can get similar(ish) results. I love my 59's but that's because the bass goes thwob wob and it's fun, not sure I "need" them though. A lot of it is just what you get used to, 10,000 hours that old cliche.
When it comes to acoustics there's one thing you just can not take out of the equation and that's the room itself which is by in large the most expensive part of it all. I literally had to get a new house to come anywhere near +-3dB 30 - 20Khz.. DSP correction doesn't fix everything so?!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 14:22:03 GMT -6
That’s basically £4,000! I just can’t spend anymore money at the moment - I have to draw a line in the sand. Have you got your spending under control these days? tht Hmm, Carbon says no (and that cost about £4K all in). Might have urrm, bought a compressor as well because I had two slots spare in a rack. I'm 100% sure there's a 50% chance I'll find a use for it..
Either that or I'll pull a John, sell it and buy another one later. I don't like the 6176 however I've bought and sold three of them?! I mean, fool me once and all that.
|
|
|
|
Post by okcrecording on Jan 18, 2024 14:26:52 GMT -6
Welcome! You have picked a great time to dig into engineering again. So many options are available these days, it can be a little disconcerting, but don't let it intimidate you. Much of the gear available today (especially in the low to mid range prices) are lightyears above what we had even 20 years ago. Remember ADATs? I sure do. I was working at a studio in AZ around 99-01 and they had 3 of them in studio B. Somewhat of a nightmare to work with, with sync dropouts and tapes getting eaten if the machines were not religiously cleaned and maintained. The audio quality was not great compared to the Studer A827 we were also using in studio A.
But, MANY platinum albums were recorded and released using ADAT. With that in mind, find a decent interface with the right number of inputs you need and one that can provide some version of zero or low latency monitoring. Get a set of speakers. Again, find a pair you think will work for you and learn how they sound in your room. Try not to labor over the multitude of choices. Stick to a budget and learn your gear. You have already had many recommendations on mic and preamp choices, all of the suggestions are well thought out and are trying to give you a little bit of a shortcut based on what these engineers have learned over the years. This forum is really great in that respect, these guys genuinely want to help, which I am constantly impressed with the knowledge and candor available here.
All of this to say, for the most part, just dig in and get started. Most of the equipment you have available today is better in quality and sound, with some caveats of course. My suggestion is to try to weed out the caveats and tailor your choices based on your budget.
Hope this helps in some way, and happy recording!
|
|
|
|
Post by niklas1073 on Jan 18, 2024 14:35:58 GMT -6
There’s a lot of points about room and monitoring. It is an expensive and time consuming part of it all. I would consider giving mixing with phones a serious shot. Many big boys do it today and I see that is a growing directions since it opens the option of mixing everywhere, the monitoring environment never changes. I do it despite having a decent room and monitors.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 14:38:00 GMT -6
There’s a lot of points about room and monitoring. It is an expensive and time consuming part of it all. I would consider giving mixing with phones a serious shot. Many big boys do it today and I see that is a growing directions since it opens the option of mixing everywhere, the monitoring environment never changes. I do it despite having a decent room and monitors. Echooo, echoooo...  |
|
|
|
Post by niklas1073 on Jan 18, 2024 14:51:11 GMT -6
There’s a lot of points about room and monitoring. It is an expensive and time consuming part of it all. I would consider giving mixing with phones a serious shot. Many big boys do it today and I see that is a growing directions since it opens the option of mixing everywhere, the monitoring environment never changes. I do it despite having a decent room and monitors. Echooo, echoooo... sorry, now I really dug into your earlier comment and saw you already covered the headphone aspect 👍. I wasn’t attentive enough… |
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 18, 2024 15:25:11 GMT -6
To clarify, the sm7b is not my fave. I just know how it sounds on other voices and my own through experience. Not gonna lie, the clips I hear of the m88 make me think it’s bright and forward. The sm7 just sounds smoother to me. I like a dark-ish, smooth kind of sound from vocal mic. I’m willing to bet a u47 would be my favorite mic of all time on my voice I just don’t think it or a good clone of it would be a wise selection given my circumstances. I’m definitely considering other options. That ku5a ribbon mic sounds pretty sick from the things I’ve heard. It’s a little out of my budget but that’s the only other mic I’ve heard outside of the sm7 that I think could work in my situation. Bright and forward is the exact opposite of how I would describe the m88. Not sure what clips you're listening to but my m88 rivals the m160 in terms of dark/warm tone. And I love it. (I'm assuming you're talking about the Beyer m88 here not the Neve 88m interface.) |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098 
|
Post by ericn on Jan 18, 2024 15:42:53 GMT -6
I think the concept of the 88M is awesome, but for someone starting out I think the price point is just to high. Considering used SSL 2+ can be had for less than 200!
Here is where I would start, put some $ into the room and monitors!
Gear My first purchases if I was starting over would be the following all used.
SSL 2 +, or the little Blacklion interface.
A little Mackie 1202 a mixer extra headphone amp and you can use it as a monitor level control.
Stereo pair of decent small diaphragm condensers, you can use them on acoustic instruments up close or mic stereo when needed.
If you can solder a used TT patchbay, if not learn to solder😎 or a New TRS patchbay. Starting with a bay will just make life easier over time.
Decent new boom stands, if you like your mics consider it protection.
Your favorite SM7 used.
A EV635a and a general purpose cardiod Dynamic ( sm or Beta 57, Audix I5, AT ATM63, AKG D1000/1200).
Don’t skimp on boring stuff, in the long run Cheap cables, stands etc cost you more and always break when nothing is open.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 16:52:14 GMT -6
Echooo, echoooo... sorry, now I really dug into your earlier comment and saw you already covered the headphone aspect 👍. I wasn’t attentive enough… Lol, no probs in the slightest. I'm just glad someone got it and agreed  .. |
|
|
|
Post by lildonut92 on Jan 18, 2024 17:06:05 GMT -6
I think I have a good starting base thanks to this thread! I appreciate all of the helpful info!
|
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jan 18, 2024 18:29:01 GMT -6
Excellent suggestions from all. Yet... The El Cheapo in me, wonders if you started out with an EV 635a and a nice/decent USB Interface, whether that might be a good/simple way to start. FWIW there are a ton of YouTube clips of TV Shows in the 60's and 70's using the 'umble 635a on many a "name" Performer. Vocals/Acoustic Guitar etc. You can get started for less than $300 new!  Then get that UA Spark Subscription, that everyone loves  around here. The Silver Bullet and Coil Pre Plugs sound quite interesting, if you want to "adventure" some. BTW I'm messing around with my 635a over the next couple of days. Experimenting more with the Audiobox/original Soyuz Launcher (Line Booster) combo.* But other budget Interfaces are superior without a line booster for conventional Dynamics. I may be getting a Deluxe Launcher for (expanded) comparison purposes. And review it. I figured out recently which of the Prosumer Pre's at home, mate better with my Launcher. Audiobox/Launcher sounds real cool IMHO. You can go cheaper on the Line Boosters too. Like a Triton FetHead on up. On most recordings/sources you don't "have to" get one. *Whereas Scarlett 3rd Gen/Launcher was somewhat harsh at times. Chris P.S. "untreated room"? Concern about "which Pre"? Just fuggedebout it. LOL! |
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jan 18, 2024 18:39:59 GMT -6
Also for being more productive in writing songs...
You may want to check out Bremmers Multitrackstudio DAW.
Nice Effects/Great workflow.
Even Audacity is worth a thought, to use at least sometimes.
It's been really improving lately.
Chris
|
|
..
around here.