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Post by lildonut92 on Jan 18, 2024 18:50:46 GMT -6
Oh, one quick other question. One mic I have heard and liked the sound of is the Neumann kms105. It’s super cardioid as well, so good rejection. Would this be a good alternative to the sm7 for my purposes?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 19:06:40 GMT -6
Excellent suggestions from all. Yet... The El Cheapo in me, wonders if you started out with an EV 635a and a nice/decent USB Interface, whether that might be a good/simple way to start. It really depends what you're going for Chris, a demo? A record or something that throws punches at the elite? I'll be super blunt, most charting records have a similar level of quality to them, it seems that the decade reflects style more than anything. Some are mind blowing, some are good but besides the butt jokes like St. Anger or Paramore it's consistant. Most who tout and exhale their opinionated prowess with golden pieces of uber expensive equipment don't come close neither do those touting on the opposite side.
Then again some can't even tell if they're in tune so it is what is. I've racked my brains on this subject for who knows how long and the only answer I can come up with is be good at everything and don't be waylaid away from the beaten path too much. However that can lead to a self defeatist perfectionist attitude like mine and here's the thing..
A mediocre track could do well for itself but a song that never existed has no chance at all. It's like the lottery, gotta be in it to win it..
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Post by chessparov on Jan 18, 2024 19:17:28 GMT -6
True. But I'd have someone like you-a real Pro-record me then! (If the eye is towards the Big Leagues)  I think the OP is primarily developing their Songwriting and Chops. To make nice/presentable records. Going by the original post... Chris |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 19:29:06 GMT -6
True. But I'd have someone like you-a real Pro-record me then! (If the eye is towards the Big Leagues) I think the OP is primarily developing their Songwriting and Chops. To make nice/presentable records. Going by the original post... Chris I get ya but IMO if you've got an ear for this stuff plus a passion recording, mixing and mastering can be a torturous process, even if you enjoy it. I've thought on occasion screw it I'll go rent a studio for $50.00 an hour (that's what some are asking and some ain't bad either). Then spend your time and money on instruments, practicing etc.
Unfortunately you can get too deep down the rabbit hole, I'm not saying it's a bad thing but it really depends on what you're looking to get out of this five years down the line.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 18, 2024 22:35:52 GMT -6
Oh, one quick other question. One mic I have heard and liked the sound of is the Neumann kms105. It’s super cardioid as well, so good rejection. Would this be a good alternative to the sm7 for my purposes? That's generally considered a live mic though you could use it for whatever. But it's not gonna be analogous to SM7b at all. It's essentially a SDC with a modification to protect it from handling noise and plosives. So itll be fast and accurate. Not how I'd describe SM7b at all. A FET 47 style will get you the rejection of SM7b with the smooth warmth of 47 style. |
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Post by ab101 on Jan 18, 2024 22:44:09 GMT -6
The Neumann kms105 can work great on some people. I have three of them, but for live work. They are now second call to the Lewitt mtp-550, which I think sounds above its paygrade. vintageking.com/lewitt-ams-mtp-550-dm-s-handheld-microphone-w-switchThen if there is one mic on the guitar - I think the Samar MG32 or MG33 should be considered. |
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Post by enlav on Jan 19, 2024 11:09:43 GMT -6
A FET 47 style will get you the rejection of SM7b with the smooth warmth of 47 style. Curious here, as someone who has only ever had the chance to use a vintage fet 47 on kick... do most of the clones share the same rejection as the original? Only asking since I know the various KM84-styled mics seem to be the most different in regards to rejection and off-axis coloration. |
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Post by doubledog on Jan 19, 2024 11:26:41 GMT -6
I'm just going to throw the Chandler TG Type L in the hat again (because I've been using it a whole lot and it has not disappointed yet). It's really 2 mics in one (A/B settings). Get one of those and compare it against your SM7B. It's more than a 7B, but you may find yourself wanting a pair of the Chandlers... It's more like a 47 than it is the SM7B (on setting A) and setting B is smooth (some say ribbon-like, maybe not quite but in that direction). Personally I would pickup a used Volt or used, recent-gen Focusrite Scarlett, or SSL2+.... (if you get it used you can probably turn it over for almost the same price later if you decide you need something else and these have decent, modern converters). Or maybe you expand to outboard (500 series?) pres later. Then treat the room (or record in a closet full of clothes), or get something like the Steven Slate VSX headphone system (that essentially takes the room out of the equation). A simple system like that has the potential to make some high quality recordings.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 19, 2024 11:55:54 GMT -6
A FET 47 style will get you the rejection of SM7b with the smooth warmth of 47 style. Curious here, as someone who has only ever had the chance to use a vintage fet 47 on kick... do most of the clones share the same rejection as the original? Only asking since I know the various KM84-styled mics seem to be the most different in regards to rejection and off-axis coloration. The United Studios one certainly does I can attest to that. |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2024 12:16:04 GMT -6
Scarlett 3rd Gen Pre's can be a little too Present (harsh) sometimes. Volt's are "nice/clean". (I like them a little more than Onyx's-but probably comparable) Presonus Audiobox's are fuller/smoothest of these four. But low gain on Dynamics. Haven't tried their XMAX's yet. But probably very similar with better gain. All IMHO. But been swimming in the Prosumer Pre Pond for a while!  Chris P.S. AKG D770/D790 and EV 767a are all $leeper mics on vocals. All $100 or less used. The AKG's way less. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 19, 2024 13:14:05 GMT -6
Oh, one quick other question. One mic I have heard and liked the sound of is the Neumann kms105. It’s super cardioid as well, so good rejection. Would this be a good alternative to the sm7 for my purposes? First I like the KMS105, great stage mic, underrated as a project studio mic. Hell yesterday I mounted a 105 head with an ambient adapter on a Shure wireless handheld to go out with a bunch of 58’s. Your post sounds like your falling into a misunderstanding even a lot of seasoned pros fall into, the concept that certain polar patterns have more overall rejection than others. If you take an Omni capsule and turn it into a cardiod, hyper cardiod or super cardiod your not going to increase or decrease the over all rejection your simply focusing the same amount of rejection or pickup area in different places. A KMS105 is going to have a narrower pickup in the front, but that is going to vary with frequency, while you will not have the notch 180 degrees off axis instead you have a big lobe of pickup with very little pickup to the sides in the rear. What does this mean for you? First think of the pattern in 3D, now where this can be problematic is and I’m making the assumption that you want to play and sing at the same time, that lobe will probably be positioned at a downward angle and there is a very good chance it’s going to pickup a very narrow portion of your guitar. The thing is your probably not going to manage to balance it and get away with a single mic like you can with a figure 8 because you won’t be still enough to keep that lobe covering the same position on the guitar, the frequency response of the guitar is going to change as you move. Second as far as vocals you will probably find that pickup pretty narrow and force yourself to move a lot less. Some who have really really good handheld mic control can use the extreme areas where the frequency response varies as an effect, but for most it’s a source of frustration. The rear lobe of any hyper or super cardiod ( or shotgun) is a major often forgotten pain in the ass, if it isn’t picking up something like a an acoustic, it invariably seams to pick up HVAC or some other unwanted noise. One of the reasons the SM7 is so often recommended to musicians who want to just record is that its overall rejection has a lot to do with its overall low output/ sensitivity. You can pretty much put it in front of someone and they can sing and play without much thought and get a better than average vocal. Their are plenty of mics that most will agree are sonically better mics, but what most don’t understand is that it isn’t the best mic for the $ it’s the easiest to put up and run with even if you increase the price range times 10! This is why pros recommend it besides that yeah it worked on the best selling album of all time. This is also why I suggested a used 635a as part of your kit, it’s Omni pattern makes it the anti cardiod derivative. No matter what angle the source addresses a Natural Omni it’s going to sound the same. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 19, 2024 13:38:42 GMT -6
The Neumann kms105 can work great on some people. I have three of them, but for live work. They are now second call to the Lewitt mtp-550, which I think sounds above its paygrade. vintageking.com/lewitt-ams-mtp-550-dm-s-handheld-microphone-w-switchThen if there is one mic on the guitar - I think the Samar MG32 or MG33 should be considered. Interesting, a lot of people don’t realize the design talent that existed at modern AKG because the corporate masters handicapped them. For the $ I might just have to give this a try. I just wish more manufacturers would follow the lead of Shure and Sennheiser who sell almost all their stage vocal mics as heads for wireless! |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2024 13:41:55 GMT -6
Again the nice thing about the EV 635a is the filmed record of the plethora of singers (some Acoustic Guitarists too) recorded on it. Examples... Soul Train/Glen Campbell Goodtime Hour/Johnny Cash Show/Shindig etc. Also interview shows like Dick Cavett, that had musical guests. Even a 60's Swedish Show that had Jimi Hendrix perform live! Chris P.S. I'll try "Little Wing" on mine this weekend in Tribute. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 19, 2024 13:45:49 GMT -6
Again the nice thing about the EV 635a is the filmed record of the plethora of singers (some Acoustic Guitarists too) recorded on it. Examples... Soul Train/Glen Campbell Goodtime Hour/Johnny Cash Show/Shindig etc. Also interview shows like Dick Cavett, that had musical guests. Even a 60's Swedish Show that had Jimi Hendrix perform live! Chris Do remember a lot of those shows were lip synced, more than you think. 635a’s and other EV dynamics ended up on a lot of the old TV broadcasts because the ENG guys had a shit load. |
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Post by okcrecording on Jan 19, 2024 14:07:55 GMT -6
Again the nice thing about the EV 635a is the filmed record of the plethora of singers (some Acoustic Guitarists too) recorded on it. Examples... Soul Train/Glen Campbell Goodtime Hour/Johnny Cash Show/Shindig etc. Also interview shows like Dick Cavett, that had musical guests. Even a 60's Swedish Show that had Jimi Hendrix perform live! Chris Do remember a lot of those shows were lip synced, more than you think. 635a’s and other EV dynamics ended up on a lot of the old TV broadcasts because the ENG guys had a shit load. Same as it ever was, same as it ever was... Attachments:
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Post by ericn on Jan 19, 2024 14:10:28 GMT -6
Do remember a lot of those shows were lip synced, more than you think. 635a’s and other EV dynamics ended up on a lot of the old TV broadcasts because the ENG guys had a shit load. Same as it ever was, same as it ever was... Hey Jerry Harrison was a Cheese head, a frequent Client at Sound Summit/ Music Head and is a pretty nice guy! |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2024 14:10:54 GMT -6
Not the Godfather of Soul or Aretha!! Lest Thou checkest Soul Train... Before you cast the first stone. LOL! (Cues Get On The Good Foot/Soul Train) Chris P.S. It's a shame that during their heyday... Paul Revere and the Raiders AFAIK don't have any existing/actual "Live Footage". One of the best Rock Bands, supposedly live. Mark Lindsay. What a voice!! |
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Post by okcrecording on Jan 19, 2024 14:15:41 GMT -6
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was... Hey Jerry Harrison was a Cheese head, a frequent Client at Sound Summit/ Music Head and is a pretty nice guy! This was in no way a slight against the Heads, but a comment on how we generally cannot always trust our eyes. Remain in Light continues to be one of my favorite albums. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 19, 2024 14:21:05 GMT -6
Hey Jerry Harrison was a Cheese head, a frequent Client at Sound Summit/ Music Head and is a pretty nice guy! This was in no way a slight against the Heads, but a comment on how we generally cannot always trust our eyes. Remain in Light continues to be one of my favorite albums. Wasn’t taken as a negative, I just like to give old clients a shoutout 😁 |
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Post by okcrecording on Jan 19, 2024 14:26:28 GMT -6
This was in no way a slight against the Heads, but a comment on how we generally cannot always trust our eyes. Remain in Light continues to be one of my favorite albums. Wasn’t taken as a negative, I just like to give old clients a shoutout 😁 That sounds like it would have been a great conversation. Color me green my friend |
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Post by ericn on Jan 19, 2024 14:32:07 GMT -6
Wasn’t taken as a negative, I just like to give old clients a shoutout 😁 That sounds like it would have been a great conversation. Color me green my friend Oh the stories Jerry and Belew had, then you had to add John Stark who was the guitar tech for King Crimson. Where it also got interesting is one of the guys from Uptown, the guys who built all the custom MIDI Switching stuff’s brother was a DJ and regular. Wisconsin in the 80’s and 90’s was a blast. |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2024 14:35:22 GMT -6
No Lip Syncing on Glen Campbell or Johnny Cash!! |
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Post by ericn on Jan 19, 2024 15:02:52 GMT -6
No Lip Syncing on Glen Campbell or Johnny Cash!! Yeah because neither of them were ever to far gone to perform 😜 When I was little they were my must see TV, my parents encouraged it, it was funny when as a teenager someone got busted for drugs and my mother went off on “ what a bad i influence…..” I had to remind her Johnny Cash Addict, Glenn Campbell Alcoholic busted for domestic violence, all the drug and family issues of those super clean cut Beach Boys oh and her personal hero Mario Lanza Alchoholic. She replied “ never should have encouraged all that reading and I shouldn’t have gotten you that Rolling Stone subscription “😁 |
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Post by lildonut92 on Jan 19, 2024 18:02:14 GMT -6
Oh, one quick other question. One mic I have heard and liked the sound of is the Neumann kms105. It’s super cardioid as well, so good rejection. Would this be a good alternative to the sm7 for my purposes? First I like the KMS105, great stage mic, underrated as a project studio mic. Hell yesterday I mounted a 105 head with an ambient adapter on a Shure wireless handheld to go out with a bunch of 58’s. Your post sounds like your falling into a misunderstanding even a lot of seasoned pros fall into, the concept that certain polar patterns have more overall rejection than others. If you take an Omni capsule and turn it into a cardiod, hyper cardiod or super cardiod your not going to increase or decrease the over all rejection your simply focusing the same amount of rejection or pickup area in different places. A KMS105 is going to have a narrower pickup in the front, but that is going to vary with frequency, while you will not have the notch 180 degrees off axis instead you have a big lobe of pickup with very little pickup to the sides in the rear. What does this mean for you? First think of the pattern in 3D, now where this can be problematic is and I’m making the assumption that you want to play and sing at the same time, that lobe will probably be positioned at a downward angle and there is a very good chance it’s going to pickup a very narrow portion of your guitar. The thing is your probably not going to manage to balance it and get away with a single mic like you can with a figure 8 because you won’t be still enough to keep that lobe covering the same position on the guitar, the frequency response of the guitar is going to change as you move. Second as far as vocals you will probably find that pickup pretty narrow and force yourself to move a lot less. Some who have really really good handheld mic control can use the extreme areas where the frequency response varies as an effect, but for most it’s a source of frustration. The rear lobe of any hyper or super cardiod ( or shotgun) is a major often forgotten pain in the ass, if it isn’t picking up something like a an acoustic, it invariably seams to pick up HVAC or some other unwanted noise. One of the reasons the SM7 is so often recommended to musicians who want to just record is that its overall rejection has a lot to do with its overall low output/ sensitivity. You can pretty much put it in front of someone and they can sing and play without much thought and get a better than average vocal. Their are plenty of mics that most will agree are sonically better mics, but what most don’t understand is that it isn’t the best mic for the $ it’s the easiest to put up and run with even if you increase the price range times 10! This is why pros recommend it besides that yeah it worked on the best selling album of all time. This is also why I suggested a used 635a as part of your kit, it’s Omni pattern makes it the anti cardiod derivative. No matter what angle the source addresses a Natural Omni it’s going to sound the same. If I sang through an sm7 and mic’d the acoustic up with and LDC in figure 8, I would still have to make sure the capsules are lined up to avoid phase issues correct? Or would it be better to have the ldc in cardioid pointed downward toward the guitar so that the backside of it is rejecting the vocal? |
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Post by plinker on Jan 19, 2024 18:30:48 GMT -6
First I like the KMS105, great stage mic, underrated as a project studio mic. Hell yesterday I mounted a 105 head with an ambient adapter on a Shure wireless handheld to go out with a bunch of 58’s. Your post sounds like your falling into a misunderstanding even a lot of seasoned pros fall into, the concept that certain polar patterns have more overall rejection than others. If you take an Omni capsule and turn it into a cardiod, hyper cardiod or super cardiod your not going to increase or decrease the over all rejection your simply focusing the same amount of rejection or pickup area in different places. A KMS105 is going to have a narrower pickup in the front, but that is going to vary with frequency, while you will not have the notch 180 degrees off axis instead you have a big lobe of pickup with very little pickup to the sides in the rear. What does this mean for you? First think of the pattern in 3D, now where this can be problematic is and I’m making the assumption that you want to play and sing at the same time, that lobe will probably be positioned at a downward angle and there is a very good chance it’s going to pickup a very narrow portion of your guitar. The thing is your probably not going to manage to balance it and get away with a single mic like you can with a figure 8 because you won’t be still enough to keep that lobe covering the same position on the guitar, the frequency response of the guitar is going to change as you move. Second as far as vocals you will probably find that pickup pretty narrow and force yourself to move a lot less. Some who have really really good handheld mic control can use the extreme areas where the frequency response varies as an effect, but for most it’s a source of frustration. The rear lobe of any hyper or super cardiod ( or shotgun) is a major often forgotten pain in the ass, if it isn’t picking up something like a an acoustic, it invariably seams to pick up HVAC or some other unwanted noise. One of the reasons the SM7 is so often recommended to musicians who want to just record is that its overall rejection has a lot to do with its overall low output/ sensitivity. You can pretty much put it in front of someone and they can sing and play without much thought and get a better than average vocal. Their are plenty of mics that most will agree are sonically better mics, but what most don’t understand is that it isn’t the best mic for the $ it’s the easiest to put up and run with even if you increase the price range times 10! This is why pros recommend it besides that yeah it worked on the best selling album of all time. This is also why I suggested a used 635a as part of your kit, it’s Omni pattern makes it the anti cardiod derivative. No matter what angle the source addresses a Natural Omni it’s going to sound the same. If I sang through an sm7 and mic’d the acoustic up with and LDC in figure 8, I would still have to make sure the capsules are lined up to avoid phase issues correct? Or would it be better to have the ldc in cardioid pointed downward toward the guitar so that the backside of it is rejecting the vocal? The latter option. Also, you'll want to be sure that LDC has the flattest (i.e., natural) off-axis pickup to ensure it doesn't dick-up the guitar sound. Very few of them do, so try your best when selecting that mic. Regardless, you'll still need to do a phase measurement and mic placement adjustment, to minimize how much each mic is dicking-up the other. You WILL get a lot of bleed from the LDC! |
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