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Post by hadaja on Jan 9, 2024 15:51:46 GMT -6
Newbie basic DIY question. I am looking bat getting some older out put transformer - Jensen Reinbach models not the newer Jensen JAckson version. SO these are Jensen JE 123 model.
They have the option of 1:1 or 1:2 outputs.
Quick question does that mean you can double the output volume capabilities if you chose to wire them in a 1:2 version?
ANd if so how much audio sacrifice (and/ or colour) is there to the quality of sound coming out?
Or it doesnt work quite like this?
Thanks.
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Post by winetree on Jan 9, 2024 17:36:50 GMT -6
Yes, I think so. I picked up a pair of the JENSEN JE123-s transformers for a pair of CAPI-GEAR 312 DI's. Just need to figure out the wiring. Probably need to contact Jeff.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 10, 2024 2:36:16 GMT -6
datasheet for Jensen JE 123 models
you can use any set of coils because of the way this transformer is wound , but one way would be:
For 1:2 operation, tie Brown to Orange and Red to Yellow, brown+orange is positive for primary , Tie green to grey, violet is + for secondary.
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Post by svart on Jan 10, 2024 13:09:06 GMT -6
Newbie basic DIY question. I am looking bat getting some older out put transformer - Jensen Reinbach models not the newer Jensen JAckson version. SO these are Jensen JE 123 model. They have the option of 1:1 or 1:2 outputs. Quick question does that mean you can double the output volume capabilities if you chose to wire them in a 1:2 version? ANd if so how much audio sacrifice (and/ or colour) is there to the quality of sound coming out? Or it doesnt work quite like this? Thanks. Yes, you can double the output voltage, but the current will half. You need to be careful about the impedance that the transformer will see on the secondary because while you increased the potential voltage, you might not actually get the full voltage if the load impedance is not high enough.
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Post by hadaja on Jan 11, 2024 15:03:50 GMT -6
SO I was thinking of seeing what happens when instead of using it for a 1:1 ratio but seeing what wiring it up as 1:2 wiring does? SO if I was using this on a Neve 3415 line amp preamp which does does about 40 db of gain does that mean I will get 80db of gain using the 1:2 option?
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 13, 2024 9:09:06 GMT -6
SO I was thinking of seeing what happens when instead of using it for a 1:1 ratio but seeing what wiring it up as 1:2 wiring does? SO if I was using this on a Neve 3415 line amp preamp which does does about 40 db of gain does that mean I will get 80db of gain using the 1:2 option? Gain stays the same. The output operating level changes from lower voltage, lower impedance to a higher voltage and higher impedance.
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Post by hadaja on Jan 14, 2024 0:15:53 GMT -6
SO why does higher voltage not equate to higher gain? And does that mean the impedance changes as well?
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 14, 2024 11:08:30 GMT -6
SO why does higher voltage not equate to higher gain? And does that mean the impedance changes as well? Changing the secondary winding after the amplified stage only would change voltage reference to the gain. So output voltage level and its output operating impedance would change. This could be a positive impact on the next device afterwards because 600 ohms is closer to the newer impedance standards the modern devices operate. Does this always bring itself to alignment with the next stage. Not usually, and for a time I was hired to make the appropriate solution to make it translate.
For instance, API 312 preamps wired as 1:3 (600 ohms) into RME line in converter (10K) would require a -22 db H-pad attenuator for clipping of the 312 to equal 0dbfs at the converter. H pad attenuator would be the best to use since it would load the 312 correctly, then transpose the signal to the new operating impedance to the interface at 10K.
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Post by hadaja on Jan 15, 2024 5:25:38 GMT -6
Oh I see there is a lot to consider. I do have some Shure and AT XLR barrel attenuators I could try.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 15, 2024 6:44:23 GMT -6
Oh I see there is a lot to consider. I do have some Shure and AT XLR barrel attenuators I could try. t types will get you in the ballpark. but H -pad is the way to go for absolute precision and offers the lowest input noise because its the only attenuator circuit that offers impedance matching in its design. Its cousin the O type is a variation of the H-pad is good but only really applicable in transformer to transformer coupling.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 15, 2024 6:55:13 GMT -6
Another thing people should try is 3:1 since you don't really need all that signal and the higher impedance will cause the DOA to have a better noise floor and have more drive range into saturation.
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Post by hadaja on Jan 16, 2024 1:09:35 GMT -6
Whats a DOA?
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 16, 2024 3:44:55 GMT -6
The discrete operational amp. Which is an op amp made from discrete components. API 2520 But now these days IC chips outperform them.
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Post by spacecowboy on Jan 17, 2024 19:39:07 GMT -6
SO why does higher voltage not equate to higher gain? And does that mean the impedance changes as well? Of course it does. Gain is by definition a ratio, for audio we’re talking about voltage. For a preamp, the total gain is the output voltage divided by the input voltage. If you change the ratio of the output transformer from 1:1 to 1:2 your net gain goes up by 2x or 6 dB. Remember gain in voltage is out/in but in decibels it is 20*log (out/in). For your example of a 40 dB gain amplifier, 40 dB is close to a gain of 100. Adding a 1:2 turns that into a gain of 200, which is 46 dB. It’s no different than gain changing if you change the ratio of the input transformer. Most of what this guy is saying is addled nonsense.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 17, 2024 22:21:10 GMT -6
SO why does higher voltage not equate to higher gain? And does that mean the impedance changes as well? Of course it does. Gain is by definition a ratio, for audio we’re talking about voltage. For a preamp, the total gain is the output voltage divided by the input voltage. If you change the ratio of the output transformer from 1:1 to 1:2 your net gain goes up by 2x or 6 dB. Remember gain in voltage is out/in but in decibels it is 20*log (out/in). For your example of a 40 dB gain amplifier, 40 dB is close to a gain of 100. Adding a 1:2 turns that into a gain of 200, which is 46 dB. It’s no different than gain changing if you change the ratio of the input transformer. Most of what this guy is saying is addled nonsense.
So are you sure about that.... after all, they have to parallel the primary which has a tendency to induce core loss. So your theoretical +3 is counteracted with -6 loss.
But I don't have to say much considering the datasheet came from the guy who spun those transformers for Jensen in the 70s. Other than doubling in output is a +3db gain and not +6db.
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Post by spacecowboy on Jan 17, 2024 22:33:20 GMT -6
see what i mean? nonsense.
doesn't matter what datasheet you have if you don't understand what it says.
the log of 2 is 0.3. 20 times 0.3 is 6 dB. a gain of 2 is 6 dB. you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 18, 2024 10:05:15 GMT -6
see what i mean? nonsense. doesn't matter what datasheet you have if you don't understand what it says. the log of 2 is 0.3. 20 times 0.3 is 6 dB. a gain of 2 is 6 dB. you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Db gain is expressed and uses the power gain formulas instead of voltage gain formulas as there is more than one operation impedance. 10log Pin/Pout
So don't ever jump to conclusions.
Voltage gain is only used for a stage instead of a total circuit.
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Post by spacecowboy on Jan 18, 2024 13:21:20 GMT -6
sure, use more terms you vaguely understand. quit wasting people's time acting like an expert.
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Post by ironinthepath on Jan 18, 2024 23:02:18 GMT -6
...But now these days IC chips outperform them.
For some reason, even with "better" specs, I still tend to gravitate towards gear using discrete opamp designs or even tubes (and I design ICs, including opamps, for a living) --> then again, maybe I just need to take part in some double-blind testing to cure my bias. -Chris
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 19, 2024 9:39:24 GMT -6
...But now these days IC chips outperform them.
For some reason, even with "better" specs, I still tend to gravitate towards gear using discrete opamp designs or even tubes (and I design ICs, including opamps, for a living) --> then again, maybe I just need to take part in some double-blind testing to cure my bias. -Chris
I was thinking about trying out a TLE2072 in a CAPI IC-DOA adapter and taking one of the secondaries and using it in series with a primary of the transformer.
But I do like the single op amp design the 312/512 has. So I was thinking of building up a tle2072 with a Jensen jt-13k6-c or a JT-115K-E60 for the input and a JT-11P-1HPC as the output since 600 ohms is kind of a dead standard with modern gear. Since most converters are 10K impedance on their line inputs. Was thinking about the VP25 or the VP312 kit with no iron, and redo the output attenuator to a 10K variable H-pad
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Post by ironinthepath on Jan 19, 2024 15:43:48 GMT -6
Would definitely be an interesting experiment - but I should say that I did not look into that part's data sheet too much to see how it compares in compatibility to the 2520 and similar variants. OPA1655 is also an interesting part. -Chris
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 19, 2024 17:15:23 GMT -6
I was thinking about trying out a TLE2072 in a CAPI IC-DOA adapter and taking one of the secondaries and using it in series with a primary of the transformer. But I do like the single op amp design the 312/512 has. So I was thinking of building up a tle2072 with a Jensen jt-13k6-c or a JT-115K-E60 for the input and a JT-11P-1HPC as the output since 600 ohms is kind of a dead standard with modern gear. Since most converters are 10K impedance on their line inputs. Was thinking about the VP25 or the VP312 kit with no iron, and redo the output attenuator to a 10K variable H-pad [/div]
I think you might have a bit of misunderstanding about input and output impedances. Also, there is no reason to use a JT-11P as a line output. It is made to be an input transformer. Jensen also makes other mic inputs for a jfet input op amp - the 13k6 or 115 will not have the right ratio for lowest noise with a jfet input amp. Modern designs are bridging - the output impedance is “much less” than the input impedance for maximum voltage transfer. you want your output impedance low.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 19, 2024 19:41:19 GMT -6
I was thinking about trying out a TLE2072 in a CAPI IC-DOA adapter and taking one of the secondaries and using it in series with a primary of the transformer. But I do like the single op amp design the 312/512 has. So I was thinking of building up a tle2072 with a Jensen jt-13k6-c or a JT-115K-E60 for the input and a JT-11P-1HPC as the output since 600 ohms is kind of a dead standard with modern gear. Since most converters are 10K impedance on their line inputs. Was thinking about the VP25 or the VP312 kit with no iron, and redo the output attenuator to a 10K variable H-pad I think you might have a bit of misunderstanding about input and output impedances. Also, there is no reason to use a JT-11P as a line output. It is made to be an input transformer. Jensen also makes other mic inputs for a jfet input op amp - the 13k6 or 115 will not have the right ratio for lowest noise with a jfet input amp. Modern designs are bridging - the output impedance is “much less” than the input impedance for maximum voltage transfer. you want your output impedance low. I don't think its a high or low, but the impedance that renders the lowest noise floor. Anything below 2K always induces a noise floor on an op amp. And their output transformer is a non-gapped transformer that could be used as an input transformer in certain applications. I probably even select an op amp that has no offset voltage and get rid of the para-feed cap which was the design compromise for using a non-gapped output transformer. matching is better. All this people thinking bridging is the way to go which is actually a compromise.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 19, 2024 20:21:53 GMT -6
I’m sorry but again I think you’ve got some things mixed up.
Resistors have thermal noise that rises with resistance, sure. A 20k resistor at room temp is like -110 dBu or so just from its own self noise.
There’s always a noise floor in every circuit.
For lowest noise the amp should be coupled with a transformer to the mic that presents the optimum impedance. This is different for different amplifiers. Since BJT have lower impedance than JFET input amps, they have different current and voltage noise, and need different input transformers for lowest noise. That’s why jensen and others make so many different ones. Every circuit has an optimum source impedance for lowest noise.
Gapped vs non gapped is just whether or not a transformer can tolerate DC current flowing through its coils.
Matching is not better or worse. Matching gives optimum power transfer. In audio we don’t care about power, the voltage is the signal carrying medium. In fact, we want less current to flow, so we can drive higher voltages for a given voltage rail. There is a reason all modern audio devices are bridging. This is for maximum voltage transfer. Matching impedance also has an inherent 6 dB loss, which inevitably raises the noise floor.
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Post by spacecowboy on Jan 19, 2024 20:24:04 GMT -6
why would anyone waste their time trying to talk to this guy? he’s just saying random words that sound like audio talk but he can’t grasp the most basic electronic concepts. loon.
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