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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 6, 2024 21:42:30 GMT -6
Yeah. Think Apollo is 24 dbu. 6x6 is 12 dbu. Burl is 22dbu.
It’s a pretty noticeable difference.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 6, 2024 22:32:05 GMT -6
Only thing I don't like is that its max output seems to be about 4 db less than the Burl. Finding I'm cranking my monitor controller more. If I remember the RAM monitor controller has a set of 1/4 inputs with 2 settings for gain, try those set up for a lower input level. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 6, 2024 23:09:55 GMT -6
Not on mine unfortunately...but I don't see one on any of them...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2024 12:04:00 GMT -6
Yeah. Think Apollo is 24 dbu. 6x6 is 12 dbu. Burl is 22dbu. It’s a pretty noticeable difference. probably because it’s usb bus powered. USB ports can only provide +/- 5v For comparison, rme Babyface pro can output +19 dbu but can only take +13 dbu on input. |
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Post by mjheck on Jan 7, 2024 12:47:27 GMT -6
The other tricky thing on the Revolution is the little knob that allows input monitoring. If you have it set to do both it really is pretty low level. if it's turned all the way clockwise it is better - obviously not great for tracking but better for mixing.
The 6x6 seems geared towards podcasters and live performance using tracks over USB - if you are really just wanting the conversion and sound quality, you would likely be fine with the 2 x 2 - those are selling used for as little as $199 on Reverb and are bus powered. While it is a pretty stripped down piece with limited IO, the simplicity can also be very cool. I was using it and a laptop to find the best recoding spot in a room - it was kind of crazy to just walk around so easily with a complete recording set up.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 7, 2024 14:10:45 GMT -6
The other tricky thing on the Revolution is the little knob that allows input monitoring. If you have it set to do both it really is pretty low level. if it's turned all the way clockwise it is better - obviously not great for tracking but better for mixing. The 6x6 seems geared towards podcasters and live performance using tracks over USB - if you are really just wanting the conversion and sound quality, you would likely be fine with the 2 x 2 - those are selling used for as little as $199 on Reverb and are bus powered. While it is a pretty stripped down piece with limited IO, the simplicity can also be very cool. I was using it and a laptop to find the best recoding spot in a room - it was kind of crazy to just walk around so easily with a complete recording set up. I was using this one in standalone so I never really had to deal with the knob. Always had it fully clockwise. I’m a little confused as to how that would work for latency. I think I’ve pretty much decided to wait on a more full featured version (or one designed with my more of my needs). The more I compare the two, I just know I wouldn’t be happy with not being able to go louder. Maybe I listen too loudly on a daily basis…but it is what it is. BUT - I still think the DA on this thing is really fantastic. More linear and more what I would call “clean headroom” than the Burl. I think it handles the problem mids (1-4khz) a little better than the Burl. The original opamps the Burl da came with were the BOPA11s. I actually upgraded to the BOPA14s like the second day I got it. I think the 11’s are darker on top and a little more pillowy on the bottom. The 14’s are more mid forward and brighter on top with a tighter bottom. I need to put those back in and do some listening tests. I might end up preferring them. Anyway - the fact that a $500 interface DA is hanging (and in some ways exceeding) with a $2500 one is pretty freaking amazing. IMO, the DA and clocking were the stars - the AD was impressive and seems very linear. Compared to the Apollo AD, I thought it had a little less bottom (could just be tighter?) and probably handled the problem miss a little better than the Apollo. That being said, I don’t think either was particularly better than the other, just different. I read a few reviews that weren’t very complimentary - might have been some of the 2x2 as well…but other than the connectivity, I can’t think of very many negatives about it sonically. Did they actually listen to the thing? A noise floor that you still never hear but it measures badly isn’t a huge concern if you ask me. I’ll definitely be in line to buy an 8x8 unit with standard I/O and better max output. Oh - if I was looking for additional adat I/O, the 8 channel EXT would be a no brainer. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 7, 2024 14:13:01 GMT -6
Just to add. From memory, this reminded me of a slightly better sounding version of the Motu units with the ess chips…828es
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 7, 2024 23:36:38 GMT -6
So I got tire of waiting...I have to go Spdif out of Apollo into AES of the Trinnov. Then AES out of the Trinnov into spdif in of the Revolution. I had two Male AES to spidf, so I got a xlr female to xlr female adapter that allows me to get back into the Revolution. OK...so it's all working. I profiled my room on the Trinnov with the Revolution DA. (Not that it should be very different...but it was a little.) AD Test These are two vocals recorded with the exact same chain, but one going into the Apollo AD and the other take going into the Revolution. The Apollo was clocked with the Burl DA on one and clocked with the Rev on the other. I honestly don't really hear much difference. I do think one might handle the mids a little better than the other. Maybe one is a little bigger on the bottom than the other. But they're very close. See if you guys hear anything that might make you think one would be an issue once you've layered a bunch of tracks - not that one necessarily would do that - but maybe some of you eagle ears might hear something I don't. I miiiiight hear a little tightness in the mids at times where I don't think the other one does that...but who knows - could just be the separate takes. That being said, I do think I prefer the Revolution DA. It's just cleaner up top. Don't know how else to describe it. See if you guys can pick out which you think is which... Clip A - drive.google.com/file/d/1F5eEAzPlm8lD4W7Vag9uIHnoY6ZSuE8H/view?usp=sharingClip B - drive.google.com/file/d/1jRDajKhqxDq0eTm4WS_ARJt1glykrCqw/view?usp=sharingJust listened to these — they definitely sound different. Not night and day, but different. Clip A sounds tighter/more compact. All of the same information as Clip B, just condensed into a smaller package. More balanced sound overall. More cohesive mids. I like it a tiny bit more than B. I can also hear the nastiness you're talking about in B. I hear it most prominently on the first "don't get so excited." It's not overwhelming, though. I used to get way worse crud in my own vocal recordings a few years back. Both of these are totally usable. I just prefer A. |
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Post by sirthought on Jan 8, 2024 6:10:31 GMT -6
John, if you are looking for something cleaner, I wonder if you would like the Neumann MT48? People really talk up the converters and preamps on that.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 8, 2024 7:24:30 GMT -6
Actually, scratch that...the Burl is actually putting out a lot more volume. That might be a deal breaker for me. Maybe there's no problem with it, but having my monitor controller up to almost zero bothers me. I think Seth mentioned that the EXT actually has +4 db more output...so maybe the bigger interfaces will have more output.
Bigger interfaces don't have these low voltage converters. As all the signals are half going in and going out of conversion.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 8, 2024 7:34:39 GMT -6
Burl uses an older DA chip and colored line stage.
Its their line stage they built and the same story goes for it A/D converter.
The humble Beringer ADAT they first made have the same converters and when you bypass the front end and go in its a cleaner sound than the burl, going in, going out, its clean even with the cheaper line driver IC that are better ones made.
What it is Burl tried to make the converter have a sound like how tape machines have different sounds, But they should have made it so it had "coloring lenses" that could be disabled if someone wants purity.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 8, 2024 10:22:27 GMT -6
My whole goal was to basically find a better ad than the Apollo…if it had da and it happened to be better, that was even better. Didn’t really think that would be the case though.
Yeah, the Apollo x ad still has a bit of accentuation in the upper mids…can be tough on my vocals.
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 8, 2024 10:50:04 GMT -6
All these converter talks make me glad I picked up a Lynx a few years ago. Was it slightly more expensive than what I wanted to spend? Yes. Did I have to invest in a Satellite to run my UAD plugs. Yes. Did I immediately forget about conversion and just enjoy making music? 100% I used to stress out about conversion way too much. Reading forums, trying to find sound samples and comparisons....It's literally been three years since I've had the Lynx and I just worry about making good music.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 8, 2024 14:01:57 GMT -6
My whole goal was to basically find a better ad than the Apollo…if it had da and it happened to be better, that was even better. Didn’t really think that would be the case though. Yeah, the Apollo x ad still has a bit of accentuation in the upper mids…can be tough on my vocals. The AD chip is a good Ad chip. What is limiting in their circuit is the capacitors on the input. As capacitors have nonlinear response depending on the loading of them.
So, what are you trying to connect to its line level AD input that has too much mids? Because its going to be an impedance match especially if they use the one on the evaluation board and assembled its buffer the same way. The evaluation board does that if the input impedance falls below 5K btw, and yes, I know how to mod it to be clean as the Behringer ADA8000 ADAT mod I came up with in 2002. Which I find it very crappy I was never given any recognition on that. Even though people loved that mod.
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 8, 2024 14:10:35 GMT -6
All these converter talks make me glad I picked up a Lynx a few years ago. Was it slightly more expensive than what I wanted to spend? Yes. Did I have to invest in a Satellite to run my UAD plugs. Yes. Did I immediately forget about conversion and just enjoy making music? 100% I used to stress out about conversion way too much. Reading forums, trying to find sound samples and comparisons....It's literally been three years since I've had the Lynx and I just worry about making good music. Well the differences is Lynx spent some time on them in selecting which signal capacitors to use, but your mileage will still vary depending on what is connected. |
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Post by lee on Jan 8, 2024 14:16:11 GMT -6
My whole goal was to basically find a better ad than the Apollo…if it had da and it happened to be better, that was even better. Didn’t really think that would be the case though. Yeah, the Apollo x ad still has a bit of accentuation in the upper mids…can be tough on my vocals. I may be late to the party on this, but have you compared any of these DACs to the Trinnov's own DACs? Curious for your take on their differences. |
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Post by audiospecific on Jan 8, 2024 15:01:06 GMT -6
My whole goal was to basically find a better ad than the Apollo…if it had da and it happened to be better, that was even better. Didn’t really think that would be the case though. Yeah, the Apollo x ad still has a bit of accentuation in the upper mids…can be tough on my vocals. The film cap used in the feedback circuit and the selection of input caps is the difference.
The Apollo is using a standard audio coupling cap, the revolution is using a low ESR Cap. Both of them have different insertion losses. The Apollo's smd feedback cap adds some edge to it and sounds like a ceramic cap instead of a film cap. Which its really hard to source a good SMD film caps in the size you want a lot of times because of availability.
But both Revolution and Apollo could be modded to sound better.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 8, 2024 17:32:53 GMT -6
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 8, 2024 19:26:57 GMT -6
This is going to sound lazy as hell, but could you just tell us what it is, Matt? I hate FB… 😀 |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 8, 2024 19:43:47 GMT -6
A bla add for a new box to add io to your existing system over adat with 8 channels of conversion, clock.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 8, 2024 20:00:47 GMT -6
My whole goal was to basically find a better ad than the Apollo…if it had da and it happened to be better, that was even better. Didn’t really think that would be the case though. Yeah, the Apollo x ad still has a bit of accentuation in the upper mids…can be tough on my vocals. The AD chip is a good Ad chip. What is limiting in their circuit is the capacitors on the input. As capacitors have nonlinear response depending on the loading of them.
So, what are you trying to connect to its line level AD input that has too much mids? Because its going to be an impedance match especially if they use the one on the evaluation board and assembled its buffer the same way. The evaluation board does that if the input impedance falls below 5K btw, and yes, I know how to mod it to be clean as the Behringer ADA8000 ADAT mod I came up with in 2002. Which I find it very crappy I was never given any recognition on that. Even though people loved that mod.
Not sure I follow you. I’m trying to connect anything I record. My vocals, guitars, anything. I’m not saying it’s like unusable, I’m just saying I hear 1-4khz a little more forward with the Apollo ad. |
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Post by sean on Jan 8, 2024 20:14:16 GMT -6
Yeah. Think Apollo is 24 dbu. 6x6 is 12 dbu. Burl is 22dbu. It’s a pretty noticeable difference. probably because it’s usb bus powered. USB ports can only provide +/- 5v For comparison, rme Babyface pro can output +19 dbu but can only take +13 dbu on input. I'm surprised they didn't add an optional power supply, like the Grace M900 for example. Using only bus power, it doesn't have enough juice to drive, say, HD650 or similar headphones. But using the power supply it comes to life. But, the option of being strictly bus powered is handy while traveling. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 8, 2024 20:51:31 GMT -6
probably because it’s usb bus powered. USB ports can only provide +/- 5v For comparison, rme Babyface pro can output +19 dbu but can only take +13 dbu on input. I'm surprised they didn't add an optional power supply, like the Grace M900 for example. Using only bus power, it doesn't have enough juice to drive, say, HD650 or similar headphones. But using the power supply it comes to life. But, the option of being strictly bus powered is handy while traveling. The 6x6 can be bus powered, but it has a wall wart. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 8, 2024 21:51:25 GMT -6
I'm surprised they didn't add an optional power supply, like the Grace M900 for example. Using only bus power, it doesn't have enough juice to drive, say, HD650 or similar headphones. But using the power supply it comes to life. But, the option of being strictly bus powered is handy while traveling. The 6x6 can be bus powered, but it has a wall wart. But sounds like even when it's powered by the wall wart power supply, it's still pretty low powered? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 8, 2024 22:05:40 GMT -6
The 6x6 can be bus powered, but it has a wall wart. But sounds like even when it's powered by the wall wart power supply, it's still pretty low powered? Yeah. I’m using it plugged in. |
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