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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 2, 2024 23:44:41 GMT -6
After my thread "best ADDA on an interface" thread, I had someone send me (don't know if he wants me to name him, but I can if he wants!) a BL Revolution 6x6 to test out. Hooked it up today. Had been watching a couple of videos/reviews about the 2x2...and honestly, several of them kinda slagged it. So I came in honestly not expecting much. I just got to play around and compare the DA side so far...my plan was to try and find a remotely affordable AD option that was better than the Apollo 6x I have. I sold my Burl because I didn't think there was a huge difference when doing some comparisons. Then after I sold, I did a vocal for someone - and there was the zing that I hadn't dealt with in a long time. It's workable - and who knows - maybe I sang zingy that day. But now I've convinced myself that I will never be able to record anything without the world laughing at me and saying, "Damn, you hear that zingy vocal?"
My setup for DA has been this for the last couple years: Apollo AES out to Trinnov, Trinnov AES out into Burl DA...clock the Apollo with the Burl. So I hooked up the Revolution as a second interface and ran the monitor outs to the second input of my RAM monitor controller then obviously out to speakers. That way, I could use the RAM to flip back and forth while playing. I was using itunes, so I would have to set the audio/midi output to either the Burl or the Revolution - but that could be done simultaneously while pressing the corresponding monitor 1 or 2 at the same time.
I honestly couldn't believe this thing. I'm obviously going to keep listening back and forth, but I'm telling you, IMO, it sounds objective better than the Burl. Not by much - they actually don't sound dissimilar...and they both sound tremendous.
Felt like the Burl was big, punchy and thick on bottom, maybe a little bit more low mids and definitely more pointed in the middle mids 900ish and maybe a little brighter in the 2-4khz range.
The Revolution was crystal clear...like it had a cleaner top end devoid of what I considered like saturation or distortion. (Guy said it was most likely phase smearing I was hearing on the Burl - above my learnin')...It has a super punchy bottom but what I would consider less cloudy and a very precise top end that doesn't hurt. I noticed on a few songs that the vocal could get strident (we're nitpicking here) in that painful 2-3khz zone when the singer pushed. I did not hear that on the Black Lion. The Rev doesn't seem to have as much output as the Burl, but this was the 6x6, so maybe the 8x8 has more? IDK. I had to bring the Rev volume up a little to match when switching back and forth.
Here's the thing - the fact that I think the Rev DA is even half as good as the Burl just floors me. It's not at all what I expected, so I've wondered if maybe going through the Trinnov (it's bypassed) could be affecting the Burl? Does clocking the Apollo with the Burl cause any sonic issues? I kind of doubt it, right?
I'm going to keep playing with it...hope to get to the AD side tomorrow. But if I was hearing things right tonight, this thing is an instant buy for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2024 0:00:04 GMT -6
Does clocking the Apollo with the Burl cause any sonic issues? I kind of doubt it, right? Well technically speaking yes, it does. Modern internal clocking is always better and there's extensive research, discussions etc. on the subject.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2024 0:31:56 GMT -6
Oh wait...the 8x8 is an expansion. I thought it was an interface. The I/O choices were a strange choice if you ask me...the 2x2 and 6x6 are both only 2x2 analog. Maybe they were just trying to make the best in class sounding Converters and clock in an affordable unit. But the lack of I/O was an interesting choice. The clock and the DA on this thing is phenomenal sounding...it's like who are you marketing this to? Feels like the Converters/clock are marketed to high end and the I/O is marketed to the bedroom guy.
Looking now...wtf - was the 8x8 expander not made with expanding the other units in the line? Because the 2x2 and 6x6 only have spdif while the EXP only has adat. Guess they expect you to use it as a standalone clock and converter?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2024 0:34:37 GMT -6
Does clocking the Apollo with the Burl cause any sonic issues? I kind of doubt it, right? Well technically speaking yes, it does. Modern internal clocking is always better and there's extensive research, discussions etc. on the subject. But in this scenario, the Burl is the DA using its own internal clock...how is that not preferable? Up until a month or so ago, I had the Burl B2 AD and DA with the Burl DA the master via word clock and the AD also slaving to the clock. Or hell - it was one of the Burls I used as master...can't remember which. |
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Post by robo on Jan 3, 2024 0:52:47 GMT -6
I’m glad to hear they are making solid interfaces. I have an old Red Sparrow AD which still holds up.
I agree they made weird feature choices on these. Hopefully they make a proper fully featured one at some point.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 3, 2024 3:12:46 GMT -6
Not there but I don’t think you are hearing things.
Sold my b2 a long time ago and my 2192, I personally thought the b2 sounded like shades of chocolate and mo chocolate, tasty snd appealing at first but later not so much, so I sold it.
Peeps can debate where bla is at now, but it certainly has expertise in conversion, clocking and design.
I thought that was the whole point of the Rev, excellent linear sounds, low cost. I’ve actually wanted to try one.
You’ve set your system up in a way that works for you but there’s a lot going on in terms of gear and signal flow. i think all your comparisons are valid as I believe you have typically only switched out one box.
I just track with my ob into my Aurora and am only using headphones, so much simpler set up then yours.
If you have sone cans you trust, why not try listening to just the Rev da and hearing just that output, then decide ?
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Post by mjheck on Jan 3, 2024 8:06:39 GMT -6
I have used the 2x2 since it came out (as I understand it, the 6 x 6 has more io but same tech otherwise). I agree with your assessment, having also had the Burl (and 2192, and Prism, and Antelope, and Benchmark, etc.).
I use either the Revolution or a BLA Modded Apollo. If it were just a matter of sound quality, I would use the Revolution, full stop.
However, I do have a small outboard chain that requires at least some XLR routing, and need some sort of UAD component to be able to use two of their plug ins I have not been able to beat with other things (33609, Fatso).
All that said right now I am just using the Revolution 2x2, trying to see if I can get by without the above items. I just hear better with it. It may be worth noting I mix exclusively on Audeze MX4 headphones (no monitors) so the headphone out quality becomes more important for me than the monitor out.
I was really surprised to see the "disappointed" reviews" as I think the piece is just fantastic. I was hoping the 6 x 6 would have some XLR IO - if that was the case, Im pretty sure I would just use this.
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Post by svart on Jan 3, 2024 9:20:45 GMT -6
I mean, you had the best AD/DA available... If only I kept making them.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2024 10:22:28 GMT -6
Not there but I don’t think you are hearing things. Sold my b2 a long time ago and my 2192, I personally thought the b2 sounded like shades of chocolate and mo chocolate, tasty snd appealing at first but later not so much, so I sold it. Peeps can debate where bla is at now, but it certainly has expertise in conversion, clocking and design. I thought that was the whole point of the Rev, excellent linear sounds, low cost. I’ve actually wanted to try one. You’ve set your system up in a way that works for you but there’s a lot going on in terms of gear and signal flow. i think all your comparisons are valid as I believe you have typically only switched out one box. I just track with my ob into my Aurora and am only using headphones, so much simpler set up then yours. If you have sone cans you trust, why not try listening to just the Rev da and hearing just that output, then decide ? The rev da is what I’m listening to - skipping any other connection…but I need to use it with the trinnov and compare too. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2024 10:34:11 GMT -6
I have used the 2x2 since it came out (as I understand it, the 6 x 6 has more io but same tech otherwise). I agree with your assessment, having also had the Burl (and 2192, and Prism, and Antelope, and Benchmark, etc.). I use either the Revolution or a BLA Modded Apollo. If it were just a matter of sound quality, I would use the Revolution, full stop. However, I do have a small outboard chain that requires at least some XLR routing, and need some sort of UAD component to be able to use two of their plug ins I have not been able to beat with other things (33609, Fatso). All that said right now I am just using the Revolution 2x2, trying to see if I can get by without the above items. I just hear better with it. It may be worth noting I mix exclusively on Audeze MX4 headphones (no monitors) so the headphone out quality becomes more important for me than the monitor out. I was really surprised to see the "disappointed" reviews" as I think the piece is just fantastic. I was hoping the 6 x 6 would have some XLR IO - if that was the case, Im pretty sure I would just use this. I think I’m going to keep my Apollo and then also have this as basically a 4x4 in and out along with the Apollo. But use the Rev adda. Love to be able to sell the Apollo, but then I’d just have to buy a satellite…and with the going used rate, I might as well just keep it. My room has a huge 10db bloom from around 65-90Hz, sharp dip at 90-100, dips around 400 and then multiple dips up top. When I engage the Trinnov, I immediately hear the bass properly and it’s definitely brighter. And the image seems to shift properly into place. Im waiting on an aes to spdif cable to get here Friday so I can hook the rev up with it…looking forward to that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2024 10:37:32 GMT -6
Burl uses an older DA chip and colored line stage. Modern IC opamps beat discrete opamps. Just most of the lower end interfaces like Focusrite and most multichannel interfaces like RME and the MOTU AD side are filled with junk and not cool sounding junk like a guitar pedal or a Portastudio. Even the 2x2 Black Lion without counterfeit capacitors in it was a cost reduced designs using the on chip filters with poor transition bands in the anti-alias filters. The cheap Steinbergs and SSLs without the counterfeit parts and junk caps still sound pretty bad too. Then you have manufacturers using minimum phase or mixed phased filters for "latency" for bedroom musicians playing amp sims and VSTi synths. Give me a break. The pro musicians I've worked with can track with a pedal into the di, can monitor that as "their tone," and do not even need to hear something close to what it will be reamped with. They're pros.
Something like Apogee Symphonies, Lynx, Dangerous Converts, or Bricasti M1 just kill this stuff but you must pay out the ass. I am not sure what happened to the cheaper Lavry converters without the gold plating.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2024 10:43:39 GMT -6
Meant to mention that the Rev reminds me of how I described the Lavry Blue - just remember thinking the same things. Clean, quick and punchy with a really detailed top that can almost be described as “tight” in a good way. Like you’re hearing no other stuff besides what you’re supposed to. Thinking about the Phase Smearing explanation, it IS like the Rev is slightly more “in focus.” That’s such a cliche sounding explanation, but my thinking is it’s a similar difference to when you’re using auto align on two mics on the same source. You turn it, turn it, turn it - then all of a sudden it comes into focus perfectly.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2024 10:46:26 GMT -6
Burl uses an older DA chip and colored line stage. Modern IC opamps beat discrete opamps. Just most of the lower end interfaces like Focusrite and most multichannel interfaces like RME and the MOTU AD side are filled with junk and not cool sounding junk like a guitar pedal or a Portastudio. Even the 2x2 Black Lion without counterfeit capacitors in it was a cost reduced designs using the on chip filters with poor transition bands in the anti-alias filters. The cheap Steinbergs and SSLs without the counterfeit parts and junk caps still sound pretty bad too. Then you have manufacturers using minimum phase or mixed phased filters for "latency" for bedroom musicians playing amp sims and VSTi synths. Give me a break. The pro musicians I've worked with can track with a pedal into the di, can monitor that as "their tone," and do not even need to hear something close to what it will be reamped with. They're pros. Something like Apogee Symphonies, Lynx, Dangerous Converts, or Bricasti M1 just kill this stuff but you must pay out the ass. I am not sure what happened to the cheaper Lavry converters without the gold plating. I have no idea what any of that means, but I can guarantee you that with human ears, the Symphony would not “kill” this. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2024 11:48:39 GMT -6
Well technically speaking yes, it does. Modern internal clocking is always better and there's extensive research, discussions etc. on the subject. But in this scenario, the Burl is the DA using its own internal clock...how is that not preferable? Up until a month or so ago, I had the Burl B2 AD and DA with the Burl DA the master via word clock and the AD also slaving to the clock. Or hell - it was one of the Burls I used as master...can't remember which. It would affect the Apollo but sorry John I might be misreading this thing entirely. Usually it's always better never to clock anything off anything but that's just unrealistic in some scenario's, with the MOTU AVB I had the 1248 as a master with a couple of 16A's in tow. It was what it was..
Anyway, if you're just using the Burl for DA without pushing signals through the Apollo. Cool, it should be a fair fight.
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Post by seawell on Jan 3, 2024 12:46:20 GMT -6
Experimenting with several converters over the past few years, I thankfully think they matter a lot less than they used to. Glad to hear something so affordable is performing so well for you John! I currently have 1 Avid HD I/O and 3 Lynx Aurora 16 and I've used the Avid as the master, 1 of the Lynx as the master and then a master clock(Mutec) for them all. All 3 ways were great and completely workable. The stability is best clocking all to the Mutec so that's what I roll with. I personally like Dangerous D/A(currently using a Dangerous Source as my monitor controller) but I've mixed on Avid, Lynx, Apogee and some others and never felt like any were really holding me back. Now in the early days it was a completely different story...some converters were down right awful and absolutely did hold you back. I think now though, just find something you like and hopefully it doesn't cost an arm and a leg and you can free up some cash to buy more vari mu comps 🤑
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Post by chessparov on Jan 3, 2024 12:58:56 GMT -6
I've considered the 2X2.
My limited understanding is Black Lion "earballed" these models.
To tune it the way they liked it.
But if you read the review at Audioscience.com, for example...
It criticizes the Unit(s), based on technical performance.
But I have an open (naivete?) mind
on the actual sound.
That it might be euphonic.
Even to go as far in even regarding some current budget (gasp) interfaces, as not actually hurting the audio.
Chris
P.S. I'm friends with Albert Margolis (killer Keyboard player BTW), when he was a top Exec at Lynx.
So I did get to hear some amazing A/D conversions. Hmm...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2024 13:03:19 GMT -6
I've considered the 2X2. My limited understanding is Black Lion "earballed" these models. To tune it the way they liked it. But if you read the review at Audioscience.com, for example... It criticizes the Unit(s), based on technical performance. But I have an open (naivete?) mind on the actual sound. That it might be euphonic. Even to go as far in even regarding some current budget (gasp) interfaces, as not actually hurting the audio. Chris P.S. I'm friends with Albert Margolis (killer Keyboard player BTW), when he was a top Exec at Lynx. So I did get to hear some amazing A/D conversions. Hmm... The measurements there have many reason to be doubted. The filters that come on a cheaper or older IC converter chip aren't often ideal and have inadequate band rejection before the Nyquist limit, especially considering the lower levels of the higher frequencies up near it that need to be filtered out. |
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Post by noob on Jan 3, 2024 13:04:12 GMT -6
I've considered the 2X2. My limited understanding is Black Lion "earballed" these models. To tune it the way they liked it. But if you read the review at Audioscience.com, for example... It criticizes the Unit(s), based on technical performance. But I have an open (naivete?) mind on the actual sound. That it might be euphonic. Even to go as far in even regarding some current budget (gasp) interfaces, as not actually hurting the audio. Chris Personally, I'd always take a piece that's been "earballed" instead of "technically correct." A lot of times, those are the best units. Especially at the price range these 2X2's, that's a huge win. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2024 13:57:17 GMT -6
Experimenting with several converters over the past few years, I thankfully think they matter a lot less than they used to. Glad to hear something so affordable is performing so well for you John! I currently have 1 Avid HD I/O and 3 Lynx Aurora 16 and I've used the Avid as the master, 1 of the Lynx as the master and then a master clock(Mutec) for them all. All 3 ways were great and completely workable. The stability is best clocking all to the Mutec so that's what I roll with. I personally like Dangerous D/A(currently using a Dangerous Source as my monitor controller) but I've mixed on Avid, Lynx, Apogee and some others and never felt like any were really holding me back. Now in the early days it was a completely different story...some converters were down right awful and absolutely did hold you back. I think now though, just find something you like and hopefully it doesn't cost an arm and a leg and you can free up some cash to buy more vari mu comps 🤑 Yeah - I don’t really think either one of these DA’s - even add in the Apollo da - would necessarily make me change any mix moves, it’s just more pleasant to listen to…so when you get it right, it sounds even better in the room and you’re even more confident that it’s correct if that makes any sense. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2024 14:00:36 GMT -6
I've considered the 2X2. My limited understanding is Black Lion "earballed" these models. To tune it the way they liked it. But if you read the review at Audioscience.com, for example... It criticizes the Unit(s), based on technical performance. But I have an open (naivete?) mind on the actual sound. That it might be euphonic. Even to go as far in even regarding some current budget (gasp) interfaces, as not actually hurting the audio. Chris P.S. I'm friends with Albert Margolis (killer Keyboard player BTW), when he was a top Exec at Lynx. So I did get to hear some amazing A/D conversions. Hmm... Yeah - hell if only the AD side sounds slightly better than the Apollo, that’s a $399 win in my mind. But lo and behold, the DA is freaking killer too. It’s a little too limited for all the stuff I need (adat, I/O etc) but I’m really, really considering using its DA too. Hell, if it sounds better then why the help not? |
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Post by ab101 on Jan 3, 2024 14:15:16 GMT -6
I wonder if DA is sort of like monitors - meaning that speakers that sound awesome are not necessarily the best monitors, because it does not drive the mix to a higher level. Can the same be said of DA? So, is the best DA one that has so much clarity that it pushes the mix/master to a higher level so that the translation on listening mechanisms used by the targeted audience sounds great?
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Post by noob on Jan 3, 2024 14:29:45 GMT -6
I wonder if DA is sort of like monitors - meaning that speakers that sound awesome are not necessarily the best monitors, because it does not drive the mix to a higher level. Can the same be said of DA? So, is the best DA one that has so much clarity that it pushes the mix/master to a higher level so that the translation on listening mechanisms used by the targeted audience sounds great? Not that I fully understand this stuff, but I think there are always going to be compromises made when translating a signal. For example, something that sounds like amazing A/D may compromise on sampling, but not quantization, or visa versa. And then many devices compromise on electrical components, which I think is where the biggest loss of signal comes from, since analog signal is very literally electricity. If that electricity is lost in the transfer to digital, it's not as accurate. Keep in mind that our brains do not keep time like a computer, so our concept of time is not mathematically "perfect," so what we perceive as being "perfect" or "in time" is actually wrong or somewhat off. This is where vibe, musicality comes into play. Those are things that we can't necessarily quantify accurately. So I think you're right, a lot of times we hear something that sounds like amazing A/D D/A, but in fact it's not at all amazing, it just sounds really good because there is no loss of electricity when translating. The sampling and quantization could be completely off though. And this my pretty uneducated, ignorant take btw, just me rambling here. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2024 16:06:44 GMT -6
If this thing sounds as good as you say it is a shame that they didn’t build a version with SPDIF and AES/ EBU.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 3, 2024 16:52:06 GMT -6
For easy reference...
Would you guys expect the SSL or Audient Interfaces,
to be comparable to an Apollo?
Chris
P.S. What's funny is the latest budget Tascams have (supposedly) nicer A/D than the Scarletts (maybe even Clarett?).
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 3, 2024 17:22:42 GMT -6
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