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Post by chessparov on Dec 22, 2023 13:54:24 GMT -6
Or means to be silly.
UA Volt Vintage Button/Focus Air Mode/etc. Just missing the SSL 4K Button. To complete the Prosumer Collection.
(But $aved on the UA Putnam/AIR/SSL Consoles)
Yes I have a weakness for this sort of stuff.
But guessing Coil = Fresh Premium Coffee.
Plug = Instant.
Chris
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Post by EmRR on Dec 22, 2023 16:41:46 GMT -6
I find the CA70 design discussion to be fascinating. Whatever it's doing, it's doing very well to my ear. Never have I heard a tone as sweet, pure and "sounds like a record" as my Coil It’s funny, it’s actually kind of broken in a lot of ways, the NFB range is technically what was decided as “worst case” for distortion once tech matured more, so it’s edgy sounding compared to most classic tube pre’s, and headroom is low to make distortion even higher. But our ears tell us it’s really clean and open. It ain’t! Who cares! My Gates have been first call for over 2 decades now. |
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Post by sentientsound on Dec 22, 2023 18:01:55 GMT -6
Has anyone else tried it actually?
We have one channel of CA-70s at the studio which I love. Haven't had time to demo the plugin yet.
Having something in the ballpark ITB would be great when just doing mixdown work. I really like it (the HW) in parallel line level on vocals or to color a mono synth or lead instrument or fatten a bass, etc. I suspect using the LF control and NFB would be a cool way to shape up backing vocal groups too (stereo).
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Post by andersmv on Dec 23, 2023 9:23:35 GMT -6
DISCLAIMER: This is a quick/dirty comparison. I spent a few minutes doing this for myself this morning, I'm sharing it to be nice :lol:. I've somewhat level matched everything, I'm not as picky as I usual am. I pretty much matched settings on the hardware and software, then level matched after the fact. I need to talk to Coil/MixWave and see how to properly gain stage everything to do this comparison properly. Level differences were all over the place between the hardware and software, so I don't have enough information to set up the test the right way yet. Again, this is quick/dirty.... I matched the settings on the plugin to the settings on my pair of CA-70 hardware. There's some differences obviously, but damn am I really impressed with the plugin. It seems to do "the thing" right out of the gate. They sound similar enough, and after tinkering for a bit I'm willing to bet I can get a LOT closer between the two once I get some information from the designers. Digital bounce is in there for reference. I did a bounce in the "neutral" position at -19 with Negative Feedback at Noon. Then I did one pushing a bit harder at -12 with Negative Feedback all the way down to brighten things up and excite the harmonics a little more. drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Zzro0auLVZkTF3Rz2-7kN1dvpbDZBctp?usp=drive_link |
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Post by Darren Boling on Dec 23, 2023 11:54:39 GMT -6
DISCLAIMER: This is a quick/dirty comparison. I spent a few minutes doing this for myself this morning, I'm sharing it to be nice :lol:. I've somewhat level matched everything, I'm not as picky as I usual am. I pretty much matched settings on the hardware and software, then level matched after the fact. I need to talk to Coil/MixWave and see how to properly gain stage everything to do this comparison properly. Level differences were all over the place between the hardware and software, so I don't have enough information to set up the test the right way yet. Again, this is quick/dirty.... I matched the settings on the plugin to the settings on my pair of CA-70 hardware. There's some differences obviously, but damn am I really impressed with the plugin. It seems to do "the thing" right out of the gate. They sound similar enough, and after tinkering for a bit I'm willing to bet I can get a LOT closer between the two once I get some information from the designers. Digital bounce is in there for reference. I did a bounce in the "neutral" position at -19 with Negative Feedback at Noon. Then I did one pushing a bit harder at -12 with Negative Feedback all the way down to brighten things up and excite the harmonics a little more. drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Zzro0auLVZkTF3Rz2-7kN1dvpbDZBctp?usp=drive_linkI don't know if this helps but when I was doing the Silver Bullet HW/SW shootout files I used Plugin Doctor to match levels and curves, using -18 as my ref level. PD is such a handy quick way of matching HW and SW. I've even used it to check HW drift as I work through the day and the ability to take a snapshot of the curves being used is awesome for recall. I know there's more accurate programs out there but so far this method has worked fine. |
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Post by poppaflavor on Dec 26, 2023 2:00:13 GMT -6
My hardware better not be doing anything other than flipping the phase 😂. Interesting… I’ve only done multi mic drums with my Coils once so far, can’t remember if I needed to use phase. Other than that, I don’t think I’ve touched it on the hardware so I couldn’t tell you if I’ve heard a difference on there as well. Sorry, didn't mean to imply it did anything other than flip the phase. But there are certainly differences in tone and response for some sources on polarity switch for me. I think it is mostly the stuff like keys and vocals which (in retrospect) look asymmetrical by the waveform. I thought that since the phase switch was at the outset of the signal flow it might impact the responsive level hitting the circuit and thus the limiting/saturation since (gross generalization alert) tubes tend to clip asymmetrically depending on the circuit. So like if the limiting and saturation was happening at the tubes perhaps it may be impacted to a degree by the polarity switch on an driven asymmetric waveform.
I was just watching a Dan Worral video on emphasis and de-emphasis EQ and in one little snippet he describes what I tried to describe above.
It sounds like he is indicating that flipping the polarity switch on tracks with relatively asymmetrical waveforms may indeed offer differential saturation response.
I believe this is what I'm experiencing with the CA-70S polarity switch.
It's at 10:50 in the YouTube video below:
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 26, 2023 4:13:08 GMT -6
I’ve now downloaded the demo and compared it directly to my CA-70s.
Not even close for me with the way I drive my unit.
And more to the point, the plugin misses the fundamental function and magic of Coil preamps.
Pre-amplifying and driving your ribbon and LDC’s pre AD.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 26, 2023 15:37:05 GMT -6
It sounds like he is indicating that flipping the polarity switch on tracks with relatively asymmetrical waveforms may indeed offer differential saturation response.
I believe this is what I'm experiencing with the CA-70S polarity switch. Yeah, a circuit like this clips first on one side of the signal, so a flip with the usual asymmetrical vocal/horn/etc will change the result. |
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Post by andersmv on Dec 26, 2023 16:35:20 GMT -6
Sorry, didn't mean to imply it did anything other than flip the phase. But there are certainly differences in tone and response for some sources on polarity switch for me. I think it is mostly the stuff like keys and vocals which (in retrospect) look asymmetrical by the waveform. I thought that since the phase switch was at the outset of the signal flow it might impact the responsive level hitting the circuit and thus the limiting/saturation since (gross generalization alert) tubes tend to clip asymmetrically depending on the circuit. So like if the limiting and saturation was happening at the tubes perhaps it may be impacted to a degree by the polarity switch on an driven asymmetric waveform.
I was just watching a Dan Worral video on emphasis and de-emphasis EQ and in one little snippet he describes what I tried to describe above.
It sounds like he is indicating that flipping the polarity switch on tracks with relatively asymmetrical waveforms may indeed offer differential saturation response.
I believe this is what I'm experiencing with the CA-70S polarity switch.
It's at 10:50 in the YouTube video below:
Interesting, and makes sense. I've seen the lop sided wave form aftermath with my Coils plenty of times, I'll have to do some more research and educate myself a bit better. Thanks! |
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Post by sirthought on Dec 26, 2023 20:16:34 GMT -6
I thought Matt's comparisons sounded pretty close. I know not everyone is using the hardware like that, but as a color tool it seems like an interesting option.
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Post by andersmv on Feb 6, 2024 19:59:42 GMT -6
I'm releasing this tomorrow but will go ahead and post in here... I took a little bit of a different approach with this review. Recorded a song and split everything out with my radial mic splitters, going into my analog CA-70 preamps as well as going to my clean UA Apollo preamps. I applied the MixWave plugin to the Apollo channels after the fact and matched everything to the hardware settings I had. I go through all the instruments individually, as well as a full mix of the song at the end to really do a start to finish comparison. There's full session files in the video description as well, so plenty to play around with for yourself if you want to deep dive into this.
MixWave knocked it out of the park, the plugin sounds amazing and will end up getting used as much as the hardware here...
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Post by chessparov on Feb 7, 2024 2:22:45 GMT -6
IYO is the Coil Plugin usually more helpful on vocals, versus the original Soyuz Launcher?
Now I'm wondering how combining the two might be?
Chris
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Post by andersmv on Feb 7, 2024 7:16:58 GMT -6
IYO is the Coil Plugin usually more helpful on vocals, versus the original Soyuz Launcher? Now I'm wondering how combining the two might be? Chris Really depends on the mic and source, very different sounding tools. Although you can tweak the Coil quite a bit, it tends to smooth out your highs and give you a proximity boost. The Launcher adds some high end and I hear more of the character in the midrange with the energy it adds. The Coil crew is not big fans of in line booster devices. They put a lot of effort and design into the impedance interaction with their circuit. After using their preamps for a while I have to agree, that’s a big factor in getting the most out of their preamps. I messed around with the Launcher on the Coils a little bit. Because I had to use the Coil phantom power supply anyway, I was able to experiment with powering the Launcher and then going into the Coils at line level. I liked those results a lot more, but obviously you don’t have as much gain available and run into the noise floor a lot earlier (not the ideal way to set up the chain). My favorite results were using the Launcher Deluxe in Line mode on the output of the Coils. I also had some cool results running the Launcher in boost mode after the Coil and keeping the input stage lower and driving into the Launcher harder. It’s easy to overload the Launcher that way, but gave a lot of versatility in shaping the sound between the two. It’s a pretty inconvenient way to plug everything in though…. |
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Post by poppaflavor on Feb 7, 2024 8:17:40 GMT -6
IYO is the Coil Plugin usually more helpful on vocals, versus the original Soyuz Launcher? Now I'm wondering how combining the two might be? Chris Really depends on the mic and source, very different sounding tools. Although you can tweak the Coil quite a bit, it tends to smooth out your highs and give you a proximity boost. The Launcher adds some high end and I hear more of the character in the midrange with the energy it adds. The Coil crew is not big fans of in line booster devices. They put a lot of effort and design into the impedance interaction with their circuit. After using their preamps for a while I have to agree, that’s a big factor in getting the most out of their preamps. I messed around with the Launcher on the Coils a little bit. Because I had to use the Coil phantom power supply anyway, I was able to experiment with powering the Launcher and then going into the Coils at line level. I liked those results a lot more, but obviously you don’t have as much gain available and run into the noise floor a lot earlier (not the ideal way to set up the chain). My favorite results were using the Launcher Deluxe in Line mode on the output of the Coils. I also had some cool results running the Launcher in boost mode after the Coil and keeping the input stage lower and driving into the Launcher harder. It’s easy to overload the Launcher that way, but gave a lot of versatility in shaping the sound between the two. It’s a pretty inconvenient way to plug everything in though…. Fantastic description! I've been experimenting with that Launcher Deluxe + CA70S exactly the same ways. Thanks for the summary. Great capture and perspective. I agree that the Launcher emphasizes the top and as well as the mid-range. It can get a little bit too sizzly on bright condensers. I got it back when my only mic was an AT2020 And it was pretty brutal. But I've since figured out how to use the Launcher much better and it definitely pairs well with the CA70S for balancing out that low-end emphasis of the Coil. Because of the impedance issues you mentioned about putting it before the CA70S I've been putting it after, and using the Saturate mode (Line mode). When I get too heavy-handed with the NF on the CA70S driving a bit into the launcher restores a bit of sizzly high end and has a complimentary harmonic tone (transformer & opamp) vs driving the CA70S tubes (and transformer). It's a good combination, not that the CA70S needs it but it's still interesting to explore. I tried some pairing of the CA70S with the mono RNDI, with the RNDI in Speaker Mode (up to about +40 dBU I think) to accept an extraordinarily hot input from the CA70S. I have the stereo RNDI but unfortunately they dropped the Speaker Mode hot input in favor of a smartphone input :-( CA70S + the RNDI worked pretty good as well and was a bit more refined than the launcher, but I really liked the launcher more for color that's complementary to the CA70S. |
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Post by phantom on Feb 7, 2024 9:08:14 GMT -6
I'm releasing this tomorrow but will go ahead and post in here... I took a little bit of a different approach with this review. Recorded a song and split everything out with my radial mic splitters, going into my analog CA-70 preamps as well as going to my clean UA Apollo preamps. I applied the MixWave plugin to the Apollo channels after the fact and matched everything to the hardware settings I had. I go through all the instruments individually, as well as a full mix of the song at the end to really do a start to finish comparison. There's full session files in the video description as well, so plenty to play around with for yourself if you want to deep dive into this. MixWave knocked it out of the park, the plugin sounds amazing and will end up getting used as much as the hardware here... The hardware is a bit more open and the mix pops a bit more. I guess with some subtle eq moves, the software mx would get there as well. Anyway, MixWave is becoming one of the top dogs in my opinion. They don't mess around. |
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Post by andersmv on Feb 7, 2024 9:33:47 GMT -6
I'm releasing this tomorrow but will go ahead and post in here... I took a little bit of a different approach with this review. Recorded a song and split everything out with my radial mic splitters, going into my analog CA-70 preamps as well as going to my clean UA Apollo preamps. I applied the MixWave plugin to the Apollo channels after the fact and matched everything to the hardware settings I had. I go through all the instruments individually, as well as a full mix of the song at the end to really do a start to finish comparison. There's full session files in the video description as well, so plenty to play around with for yourself if you want to deep dive into this. MixWave knocked it out of the park, the plugin sounds amazing and will end up getting used as much as the hardware here... The hardware is a bit more open and the mix pops a bit more. I guess with some subtle eq moves, the software mx would get there as well. Anyway, MixWave is becoming one of the top dogs in my opinion. They don't mess around. Ya, it's pretty close. Honestly some small aspects I like better on the plugin. It's WAY easier to utilize the difference in sound you can get by turning the output down on the plugin as you can make up the gain really easily. I also didn't do much tweaking on the plugin to match to the hardware. I matched the settings visually on the plugin that I had on the hardware, and then drove the plugin a little harder with their clean input stage. Then I level matched with their clean output on the plugin, that was it. That's why the session files are there, I want people that are really curious to be able to deep dive on their own and not worry about YouTube compression or what I decide to pick setting wise. I don't think it would take much tweaking to get a lot closer. |
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Post by Quint on Feb 8, 2024 16:06:51 GMT -6
So I haven't tested this plugin myself, or the Silver Bullet plugin either, but there seems to be a decent amount of criticism of the Coil plugin in this thread, whereas a decent majority of people here at RGO seemed to be giving the Silver Bullet plugin the benefit of the doubt.
I guess I don't understand why that is though? They both are coming at the plugin game with a fair amount of analog pedigree in their corner, and both trying to do the best they can to emulate analog mojo.
Personally, I'm not hugely interested in EITHER of these plugins, as I'm more interested in the real thing. That said, I wouldn't have any more reason to be skeptical of the Coil plugin than I would of the SB plugin, if I were going to give them a try.
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Post by drbill on Feb 8, 2024 17:09:10 GMT -6
So I haven't tested this plugin myself, or the Silver Bullet plugin either, but there seems to be a decent amount of criticism of the Coil plugin in this thread, whereas a decent majority of people here at RGO seemed to be giving the Silver Bullet plugin the benefit of the doubt. I guess I don't understand why that is though? They both are coming at the plugin game with a fair amount of analog pedigree in their corner, and both trying to do the best they can to emulate analog mojo. Personally, I'm not hugely interested in EITHER of these plugins, as I'm more interested in the real thing. That said, I wouldn't have any more reason to be skeptical of the Coil plugin than I would of the SB plugin, if I were going to give them a try. Sonically, (speaking of hardware) the Silver Bullet and CA70S are worlds different. Really different. Mojo has more than one flavor... As for comparing the two plugs, I haven't tried the Coil plug. I've got the hardware. |
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Post by andersmv on Feb 8, 2024 19:03:12 GMT -6
Ya, I can't really think of a reason to compare the Coil stuff and the Silver Bullet. What do you want to eat tonight, ice cream or a steak?  (The only correct answer is "both") |
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Post by Quint on Feb 9, 2024 12:32:12 GMT -6
So I haven't tested this plugin myself, or the Silver Bullet plugin either, but there seems to be a decent amount of criticism of the Coil plugin in this thread, whereas a decent majority of people here at RGO seemed to be giving the Silver Bullet plugin the benefit of the doubt. I guess I don't understand why that is though? They both are coming at the plugin game with a fair amount of analog pedigree in their corner, and both trying to do the best they can to emulate analog mojo. Personally, I'm not hugely interested in EITHER of these plugins, as I'm more interested in the real thing. That said, I wouldn't have any more reason to be skeptical of the Coil plugin than I would of the SB plugin, if I were going to give them a try. Sonically, (speaking of hardware) the Silver Bullet and CA70S are worlds different. Really different. Mojo has more than one flavor... As for comparing the two plugs, I haven't tried the Coil plug. I've got the hardware. But you have the Silver Bullet hardware too. In other words, if it's all about the real deal tubes and transformers, and if plugins apparently can't reproduce the vibe of tubes and transformers, then shouldn't that critique apply to the Silver Bullet plugin too, and not just the Coil plugin? |
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Post by Quint on Feb 9, 2024 13:58:13 GMT -6
Ya, I can't really think of a reason to compare the Coil stuff and the Silver Bullet. What do you want to eat tonight, ice cream or a steak? (The only correct answer is "both") To be clear, I'm not comparing the sound quality of the Coil plugin versus the Silver Bullet plugin, nor am I trying to compare the hardware Coil to the hardware SB. I'm trying to compare the quality criteria being used to judge the Coil plugin versus the quality criteria being used to judge the SB plugin. |
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Post by drbill on Feb 9, 2024 17:28:04 GMT -6
But you have the Silver Bullet hardware too. In other words, if it's all about the real deal tubes and transformers, and if plugins apparently can't reproduce the vibe of tubes and transformers, then shouldn't that critique apply to the Silver Bullet plugin too, and not just the Coil plugin? I think it's pretty obvious for anyone paying attention that my preference is for hardware over plugins. As for the "criteria" you are looking for, you're barking up the wrong tree addressing me. I never drew any conclusions. Just listened to others here and there. I do know that the hardware is quite different. I would expect the plugins to be pointed that way as well. For sure the SB plug is close to the hardware. As I mentioned, I have not tried the Coil plugin - so I really can't comment on it's "closeness". But based on comments of LTL owners and Coil owners who have used both the hardware and plugins, if I had to draw a conclusion from online opinions, I'd say the SB plugin is closer to the hardware mark than the Coil. But come on, that's a freaking crap shoot. Who knows what the listeners were listening for, their experience, and whether or not they are legit. But again, just drawing conclusions from those who have all 4 and who have no obvious vested interest like one would assume I do. I do know for sure that the SBmk2 plugin took a very very long time, and tons of work to make it "right" - and it was delayed to the point of serious frustration for those responsible in releasing it. I know there were at least 2 "LEAKS" before it was even finished as apparently distribution is used to getting plugins much faster once the deal is signed. If the Coil had the same time and care put into it, I would expect similar. One thing I believe - I think it's good for users to have all these tools - both hardware and software. You'll have to draw your own conclusions about which is closer because I just don't care - if it work, it works. Honestly, I'm not interested in the Coil plug at this point - although if I need 3 or more during mixing, I'll likely pick up the plugin. It doesn't really matter if these plugs are perfect, 90% perfect, 50% perfect or whatever. If they work and are useful, that's good enough for most. |
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Post by Quint on Feb 9, 2024 21:06:06 GMT -6
But you have the Silver Bullet hardware too. In other words, if it's all about the real deal tubes and transformers, and if plugins apparently can't reproduce the vibe of tubes and transformers, then shouldn't that critique apply to the Silver Bullet plugin too, and not just the Coil plugin? I think it's pretty obvious for anyone paying attention that my preference is for hardware over plugins. As for the "criteria" you are looking for, you're barking up the wrong tree addressing me. I never drew any conclusions. Just listened to others here and there. I do know that the hardware is quite different. I would expect the plugins to be pointed that way as well. For sure the SB plug is close to the hardware. As I mentioned, I have not tried the Coil plugin - so I really can't comment on it's "closeness". But based on comments of LTL owners and Coil owners who have used both the hardware and plugins, if I had to draw a conclusion from online opinions, I'd say the SB plugin is closer to the hardware mark than the Coil. But come on, that's a freaking crap shoot. Who knows what the listeners were listening for, their experience, and whether or not they are legit. But again, just drawing conclusions from those who have all 4 and who have no obvious vested interest like one would assume I do. I do know for sure that the SBmk2 plugin took a very very long time, and tons of work to make it "right" - and it was delayed to the point of serious frustration for those responsible in releasing it. I know there were at least 2 "LEAKS" before it was even finished as apparently distribution is used to getting plugins much faster once the deal is signed. If the Coil had the same time and care put into it, I would expect similar. One thing I believe - I think it's good for users to have all these tools - both hardware and software. You'll have to draw your own conclusions about which is closer because I just don't care - if it work, it works. Honestly, I'm not interested in the Coil plug at this point - although if I need 3 or more during mixing, I'll likely pick up the plugin. It doesn't really matter if these plugs are perfect, 90% perfect, 50% perfect or whatever. If they work and are useful, that's good enough for most. At outset, I wasn't necessarily speaking specifically to you. I was just generally wondering about the overall thrust of this thread. But since you chimed in, I did sort of wonder about your thoughts on this. Maybe I misinterpreted your post on the previous page, but I thought you were agreeing with Hightenor when you said you agreed with his assessment of the Coil plugin ("That’s something very different to essentially a saturation plugin post recording ime"). Not that everyone isn't free to have an opinion on either of these two plugins, but I did kind of wonder why you might agree, without having tried it, when the SB and the Coil are both trying to recreate the analog mojo of their hardware parent, and both are doing so with the most recent methods available. But this is why I've stayed out of the SB plugin thread. Without having tried either plugin, I'm not going to assume that either plugin is doing a better job than the other of matching its parent hardware. Either way, like you, I prefer hardware as well, even though plugins are still a reality of life. |
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Post by paulcheeba on Feb 10, 2024 20:30:56 GMT -6
I was really cynical but it doesn’t sound bad and it’s good it gets the name out there. It adds something like Cranesong Phoenix but not big tubes and transformers.
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Post by ab101 on Feb 10, 2024 21:42:32 GMT -6
I was really cynical but it doesn’t sound bad and it’s good it gets the name out there. It adds something like Cranesong Phoenix but not big tubes and transformers. I was hoping it did not sound like the hardware, because frankly I am not that impressed by the Ca70 plug. It is ok, but not incredible. I guess I had expectations that it would capture some of the magic that people I trust, including you, write about the Ca70 hardware. I do want to get the CA70 hardware. The SBII plugin, however, is an amazing compliment to the hardware SBII, which I have. |
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