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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2023 9:08:55 GMT -6
Maybe it's me, but I have to ask, does anyone here think that 90% of what Eric is doing, & discussing is a total waste of time? I think I could have achieved a drum sound, given those tracks in a few minutes, and made slight adjustments for each section, that would have taken less time than it took to watch that video~! Now that said, I like Eric, his company, his products, etc... But, again, I'm sure it's only me the old guy, but boy does this seems like a waste of time in the real scheme of things. Carry on. Sadly the recording quality is mostly crap nowadays. The bands cannot play their own generic music with "drums" that are mostly pre-mixed samples. |
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Post by Ward on Nov 18, 2023 12:48:31 GMT -6
SNIP The bands cannot play their own generic music with "drums" that are mostly pre-mixed samples. Most young bands turn their nose up at the sound of real drums anyhow, their own drums, and the capture... plus they don't know how to listen to out of context drums to understand how they'll sound in context. Canned sounds, sound canned. |
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Post by jaba on Nov 18, 2023 12:53:47 GMT -6
SNIP The bands cannot play their own generic music with "drums" that are mostly pre-mixed samples. Most young bands turn their nose up at the sound of real drums anyhow, their own drums, and the capture... plus they don't know how to listen to out of context drums to understand how they'll sound in context. Canned sounds, sound canned. I'd guess a lot of it comes down the production aesthetic of the day. Even if Bonham came back and laid down his best yet many could likely say "cool, but not what I'm after". Not that they'd be wrong, for what they want. |
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Post by Ward on Nov 18, 2023 13:29:16 GMT -6
Most young bands turn their nose up at the sound of real drums anyhow, their own drums, and the capture... plus they don't know how to listen to out of context drums to understand how they'll sound in context. Canned sounds, sound canned. I'd guess a lot of it comes down the production aesthetic of the day. Even if Bonham came back and laid down his best yet many could likely say "cool, but not what I'm after". Not that they'd be wrong, for what they want. Yes, they would be wrong.  |
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Post by christopher on Nov 18, 2023 13:30:35 GMT -6
He's said in one video nobody has ever accused him of working too fast, lol.
Ideally the way he's working is how the industry should operate if it were fair. Charge hourly, take a day to dial in the snare. Day two lets get the kick going.
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Post by smashlord on Nov 18, 2023 13:47:22 GMT -6
I think its easy to poo poo "kids nowadays" and their canned drums, but let's face it, artists are broke nowadays in comparison to years past when there were budgets where you spend extra time tweaking the sounds or to get the best performance possible. I see most people just trying to get everything done before the clock runs out. On most sessions, I am lucky if I get to swap out the snare on different songs, never mind then trying to redial in the EQ for it, etc.... before the artist starts to get nervous about time.
You gotta do your best with what you got and sometimes samples can make up for not having time to tune the drums between takes or a drummer that can't hit consistently like a session cat because he has kids, a day job, and can't spend 6 hours a day in a practice space.
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Post by tkaitkai on Nov 18, 2023 14:23:20 GMT -6
Maybe it's me, but I have to ask, does anyone here think that 90% of what Eric is doing, & discussing is a total waste of time? I think I could have achieved a drum sound, given those tracks in a few minutes, and made slight adjustments for each section, that would have taken less time than it took to watch that video~! Now that said, I like Eric, his company, his products, etc... But, again, I'm sure it's only me the old guy, but boy does this seems like a waste of time in the real scheme of things. Carry on. I’ve been a big fan of EV for a very long time — at one point he was my favorite producer and I studied his work almost religiously. I’ve also acquired a few samples and multis of his over the years through friends and also scouring the Internet. Dude is an absolute genius when it comes to “compacting” tons of sounds to fit into dense mixes. His drums may not sound crazy huge in solo, but that’s the thing — they integrate with everything else in a way that always sounds massive. I went through a period where I tried to copy his sound and always came up short. Like every other great mixer/producer, it’s his own unique choices that give him that sound. Thankfully I’ve since stopped trying to copy others and found my own way, but I still have immense respect for EV. |
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Post by lee on Nov 19, 2023 0:52:11 GMT -6
I think its easy to poo poo "kids nowadays" and their canned drums, but let's face it, artists are broke nowadays in comparison to years past when there were budgets where you spend extra time tweaking the sounds or to get the best performance possible. I see most people just trying to get everything done before the clock runs out. On most sessions, I am lucky if I get to swap out the snare on different songs, never mind then trying to redial in the EQ for it, etc.... before the artist starts to get nervous about time. You gotta do your best with what you got and sometimes samples can make up for not having time to tune the drums between takes or a drummer that can't hit consistently like a session cat because he has kids, a day job, and can't spend 6 hours a day in a practice space. pick up an old music magazine from the eighties and just from the ads alone you’ll be reminded of how much money there was in the industry, and how much the public thought of music making as a real aspiration. These companies made so much money they could afford to have a full page ad for a guitar tuner, or a double-truck on the latest keyboards Roland or Sequential we’re putting out that year. |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 19, 2023 4:01:50 GMT -6
I don't know if you're talking at me or ericn or someone else. . . context ? If it's me, notice my signature line? If it's me... put me on your ignore list, I don't care. Endorsing someone, saying me too, or noticing similarities is exactly like Eric put it: Welcome to the internet, actually welcome to our industry, actually, welcome to humanity. We are hive minded creatures who seek out our own kind. I don’t think it was aimed at either of us, for the most part we are pretty good at trying to point out any conflicts of interest. I have also personally stated many times if you consider a former dealer relationship with a manufacturer then I personally conflict with just about everybody so it levels out ( damn it it’s been at least a year since a manufacturer felt I was picking on them). The original poster on this was our very senior fellow member Kcatthedog who does link a fair amount of videos. But I’ll wager 80% have a fair amount of informative value. Now I’m not JK, it’s his private little playground and his rules, but I feel I need to point something out. We are lucky enough to have Eric Valentine grace our little corner of the internet, he could be spending his time on the giant purple rabbit hole, is his presence primarily to promote his products? Duh absolutely, but maybe he will like us and decide to spend more time and contribute to other threads thus promoting our little corner of the net. Personally I viewed this thread as clickbate to get EV to contribute a bit more, not sure if that was the intention or not. While not all of EV’s production work is to my personal taste the fact that Chris Thiele did more than one Nickel Creek project with him speaks volumes. ( remember the bassist in Chris’s other big project is from Madison as well and we cheese heads talk so if I wasn’t already a Chris Thiele fan I would be through that route). OK Since I went down the CS route the original TD of Prarie home companion Buzz Kemper is an old friend and while not a personal client I’m probably as responsible for a fair amount of his kit as anyone and I did sell one of his partners the DDA that sat in his studio for years. We’re all potential “dealers” …. of our own gear. One thing people do, understandably, is promote and importantly defend their own gear’s reputation because they know one day they may want or need to sell it! |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 19, 2023 7:20:50 GMT -6
I respect the skill, but bemusedly, i think, my top 10 sixties songs were recorded and produced more straightforwardly ?
I guess our sense of serving the song has evolved?
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Post by ragan on Nov 19, 2023 10:27:23 GMT -6
We’re all potential “dealers” …. of our own gear. One thing people do, understandably, is promote and importantly defend their own gear’s reputation because they know one day they may want or need to sell it! I think this phenomena is responsible for about 50% of the traffic on forums. |
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Post by notneeson on Nov 19, 2023 10:41:56 GMT -6
We’re all potential “dealers” …. of our own gear. One thing people do, understandably, is promote and importantly defend their own gear’s reputation because they know one day they may want or need to sell it! I think this phenomena is responsible for about 50% of the traffic on forums. Totally. It's why so many people eschew blind ABs, intentionally or not. We don't like to be wrong when we have dropped $$$. Also improtant to drive down the reputation of Warm and KT gear since it can't possibly be anywhere in the ballpark.  |
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Post by bgrotto on Nov 19, 2023 11:43:17 GMT -6
SNIP The bands cannot play their own generic music with "drums" that are mostly pre-mixed samples. Most young bands turn their nose up at the sound of real drums anyhow I'm gonna have to disagree with ya there, Ward. I don't know the demographics of the artists you primarily work with, but I'd say amongst my younger clientele there is a particular demand for 'real' drum sounds. Regarding samples, I'd argue that in *most* genres, their use is more the result of inadequate performances than anything else, and, as a mentioned, a general lack of resources (time, money for new drumheads and proper tuning, etc). In a perfect world, I'm quite sure ALL of my clients would prefer we get a perfect drum sound and dial in exceptional performances so that samples are never a necessity. |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 19, 2023 13:49:10 GMT -6
Most young bands turn their nose up at the sound of real drums anyhow I'm gonna have to disagree with ya there, Ward. I don't know the demographics of the artists you primarily work with, but I'd say amongst my younger clientele there is a particular demand for 'real' drum sounds. Regarding samples, I'd argue that in *most* genres, their use is more the result of inadequate performances than anything else, and, as a mentioned, a general lack of resources (time, money for new drumheads and proper tuning, etc). In a perfect world, I'm quite sure ALL of my clients would prefer we get a perfect drum sound and dial in exceptional performances so that samples are never a necessity. IME, in my part of the world, most artists are using drum machines and samples. Bands are currently out of fashion except for endless tribute acts!. sigh. Smaller clubs and pubs can't accommodate and don't want real drums. Original music is way more samples and machine orientated. But fashions come and go. |
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Post by bgrotto on Nov 19, 2023 14:29:21 GMT -6
I'm gonna have to disagree with ya there, Ward. I don't know the demographics of the artists you primarily work with, but I'd say amongst my younger clientele there is a particular demand for 'real' drum sounds. Regarding samples, I'd argue that in *most* genres, their use is more the result of inadequate performances than anything else, and, as a mentioned, a general lack of resources (time, money for new drumheads and proper tuning, etc). In a perfect world, I'm quite sure ALL of my clients would prefer we get a perfect drum sound and dial in exceptional performances so that samples are never a necessity. IME, in my part of the world, most artists are using drum machines and samples. Bands are currently out of fashion except for endless tribute acts!. sigh. Smaller clubs and pubs can't accommodate and don't want real drums. Original music is way more samples and machine orientated. But fashions come and go. Understood, and generally agreed, but a key detail here is making the distinction between "artists" and "bands". |
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Post by notneeson on Nov 19, 2023 15:08:00 GMT -6
You can throw a rock and hit a band around here. Hopefully it connects with the banjo player.
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Post by Ward on Nov 19, 2023 15:10:26 GMT -6
Most young bands turn their nose up at the sound of real drums anyhow I'm gonna have to disagree with ya there, Ward. I don't know the demographics of the artists you primarily work with, but I'd say amongst my younger clientele there is a particular demand for 'real' drum sounds. Regarding samples, I'd argue that in *most* genres, their use is more the result of inadequate performances than anything else, and, as a mentioned, a general lack of resources (time, money for new drumheads and proper tuning, etc). In a perfect world, I'm quite sure ALL of my clients would prefer we get a perfect drum sound and dial in exceptional performances so that samples are never a necessity. you are giving me HOPE!! Thank you |
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Post by bgrotto on Nov 19, 2023 15:32:35 GMT -6
I'm gonna have to disagree with ya there, Ward. I don't know the demographics of the artists you primarily work with, but I'd say amongst my younger clientele there is a particular demand for 'real' drum sounds. Regarding samples, I'd argue that in *most* genres, their use is more the result of inadequate performances than anything else, and, as a mentioned, a general lack of resources (time, money for new drumheads and proper tuning, etc). In a perfect world, I'm quite sure ALL of my clients would prefer we get a perfect drum sound and dial in exceptional performances so that samples are never a necessity. you are giving me HOPE!! Thank you Ha, glad to hear it! |
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Post by christophert on Nov 19, 2023 17:41:26 GMT -6
80% of my work is with real drums.
It helps having a few great sounding kits in house.
I still need to trigger samples on some projects as the drummers don't know how to hit the sweet spot for consistent tone.
It was a good video to watch.
I'm still a little confused as to why Eric mixes ITB with no inserts as he has a great console and outboard. (yeah recall / speed / budgets)
It's so easy in PT to commit the inserts - and with a combo of plug ins post insert, its pretty easy to do a recall and adjust the mix later.
Surprised at how much saturation he uses on drums, and not totally convinced the saturation sounds that great.
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 20, 2023 1:26:06 GMT -6
80% of my work is with real drums. It helps having a few great sounding kits in house. I still need to trigger samples on some projects as the drummers don't know how to hit the sweet spot for consistent tone. It was a good video to watch. I'm still a little confused as to why Eric mixes ITB with no inserts as he has a great console and outboard. (yeah recall / speed / budgets) It's so easy in PT to commit the inserts - and with a combo of plug ins post insert, its pretty easy to do a recall and adjust the mix later. Surprised at how much saturation he uses on drums, and not totally convinced the saturation sounds that great. Great drums for me being a drummer - is a great room. I loved that sound Genesis got at The Farm in Surrey UK. The drum room had a stone wall and Phil was a heavy hitter the tone was baked into the sound hitting the mics - sounded bloody fantastic to me. I’ve only had the pleasure of a room of that quality on a couple of occasions and it makes laying down a part so easy - the kit plays itself almost. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 20, 2023 2:12:20 GMT -6
^^This^^
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 20, 2023 2:15:33 GMT -6
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 20, 2023 2:46:34 GMT -6
Well, it’s a poor facsimile imho. I demoed it and wasn’t that impressed to be honest. The Rooms of Hansa SDX gets closer though your stuck playing Toontrack samples via an E Kit - which works out ok actually. |
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Post by paulcheeba on Nov 20, 2023 6:59:45 GMT -6
The thing I love about Eric is his feel and passion. 3 plug ins and he gets something usable. If you watch a few or know his work he can do any style you want authentically. His Soul is terrific, I think being a drummer he just has a great feel.
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Post by svart on Nov 20, 2023 10:40:16 GMT -6
I think its easy to poo poo "kids nowadays" and their canned drums, but let's face it, artists are broke nowadays in comparison to years past when there were budgets where you spend extra time tweaking the sounds or to get the best performance possible. I see most people just trying to get everything done before the clock runs out. On most sessions, I am lucky if I get to swap out the snare on different songs, never mind then trying to redial in the EQ for it, etc.... before the artist starts to get nervous about time. You gotta do your best with what you got and sometimes samples can make up for not having time to tune the drums between takes or a drummer that can't hit consistently like a session cat because he has kids, a day job, and can't spend 6 hours a day in a practice space. I have worked with a few dozen "broke nowadays" kids and they always had large starbucks and takeout food and this year's new version macbook when in the studio. It was only when it was time to pay the bill that they were "broke".. But it's a general adversarial nature I feel these days with younger kids. They've grown up in the DIY world and "recording" and "mixing" is a youtube tutorial and a trip to GC away. It's all "free" to them. The marketing works on young minds. "This 200$ mic is JUST LIKE that 3000$ mic" and "this interface is all you'll ever need to get professional tracks in your bedroom" really destroys the belief in studios... But it also fools them into thinking that studios are nothing more than a sum of cheap gear and a day watching tutorials, so why would they pay more than a menial amount, especially when they'll be giving away their work for free anyway? Most of the last handful of bands I've worked with have only really come to record drums or just track all at once since they don't have places to do those things. One even tracked a few parts at my place and then decided to build their own (bedroom) studio because they wanted to "invest in themselves instead of throwing money away on someone else's studio". But yeah, I hear you on the time aspect. I've had bands pay for a couple days and then spend way more time watching the clock than making good decisions. That's why I do per-song work now. It cuts down on the hurried feeling everyone has and actually saves time. Calm musicians generally perform better and do fewer takes. |
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