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Post by the other mark williams on Sept 16, 2023 23:39:46 GMT -6
So like many others, I've been listening to these demos of Coils and really, really liking what I hear (thanks a lot, bricejchandler  ). And now I'm curious about the Coil 286 and how it compares to the Locomotive 86B-2 (or what used to be called the 286A). I understand they're not based on the same circuit, and I'm sure they're both great in their own way. But they're both EF86 tube-based pres, so I would imagine there might be some areas of similarity? Has anybody heard/used both? Thoughts? Both great companies, so I'm sure one can't go wrong either way. |
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 17, 2023 0:56:34 GMT -6
They both have the EF86 but for me that’s where the comparison ends.
The Coil has the variable “negative feedback” control, and you cannot underestimate how incredibly useful it is for dialling in the exact tone your looking for within that class of pre (the CA-70 being the same control but a different sound)
I’m never going to buy another tube pre unless it has this NF control.
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Post by suicity on Sept 17, 2023 1:11:59 GMT -6
thehightenor, have you managed to compare the sound of the two? I appreciate that they have different features, but the sonic comparison before those features is something of interest.
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Post by christophert on Sept 17, 2023 4:14:38 GMT -6
I have both Coil CA70's and Locomotive 86B-2. The Coils are on another sonic planet of hugeness > and cannot be compared. The Locomotives are nice tube preamps though.
The negative feedback on the Coils is also an incredible EQ device.
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Post by kelk on Sept 17, 2023 4:49:13 GMT -6
We compared the Locomotives and Coils, both for tracking and on the mix buss. The coils came out on top every time. They share some obvious similarities like openness in the high end and tube transient handling. Overall the Coils just felt better, on an emotional level. Even in a blindfold test.. Somewhat softer and more natural and pleasing.
Any amount of feeling and emotion I can get out of a piece of metal, wire and tubes I will gladly take.
Add the neg feedback and there's no question which one i'd pick 10/10.
We're talking small increments because the Locomotives are pretty fantastic. But increments do add up..
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Post by the other mark williams on Sept 17, 2023 13:32:53 GMT -6
They both have the EF86 but for me that’s where the comparison ends. The Coil has the variable “negative feedback” control, and you cannot underestimate how incredibly useful it is for dialling in the exact tone your looking for within that class of pre (the CA-70 being the same control but a different sound) I’m never going to buy another tube pre unless it has this NF control. Huge endorsement, for sure! I forget if you have both the CA-70 and the CA-286, thehightenor. From examples I've watched/heard, the negative feedback control seems to have a much greater impact in the CA-70 than in the CA-286. I have both Coil CA70's and Locomotive 86B-2. The Coils are on another sonic planet of hugeness > and cannot be compared. The Locomotives are nice tube preamps though.
The negative feedback on the Coils is also an incredible EQ device.
Christopher, have you used the CA-286? From examples I've heard, there seems to be a big difference between the CA-70 vs. CA-286. We compared the Locomotives and Coils, both for tracking and on the mix buss. The coils came out on top every time. They share some obvious similarities like openness in the high end and tube transient handling. Overall the Coils just felt better, on an emotional level. Even in a blindfold test.. Somewhat softer and more natural and pleasing.
Any amount of feeling and emotion I can get out of a piece of metal, wire and tubes I will gladly take.
Add the neg feedback and there's no question which one i'd pick 10/10.
We're talking small increments because the Locomotives are pretty fantastic. But increments do add up..
And I'm assuming you were comparing the CA-286 to the Locomotive, not the CA-70? As I mentioned in reply to thehightenor, from the examples I've watched/heard, the negative feedback circuit has quite a bit more impact in the CA-70 circuit than in the CA-286. Keep 'em coming if you have experience with both, folks! I'd love to hear as much as possible. I should also note that I have Eric's WT-72 pre, and I really really like it. It's a lovely pre. |
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Post by Darren Boling on Sept 17, 2023 14:41:07 GMT -6
Great thread, I was just wondering about this comparison the other day. I'm guessing it's unlikely but would be awesome if Coil brought back the 3ru 2ch configuration, still kicking myself for passing up on a dual CA-70 a few years ago.
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Post by christophert on Sept 17, 2023 15:04:14 GMT -6
They both have the EF86 but for me that’s where the comparison ends. The Coil has the variable “negative feedback” control, and you cannot underestimate how incredibly useful it is for dialling in the exact tone your looking for within that class of pre (the CA-70 being the same control but a different sound) I’m never going to buy another tube pre unless it has this NF control. Huge endorsement, for sure! I forget if you have both the CA-70 and the CA-286, thehightenor. From examples I've watched/heard, the negative feedback control seems to have a much greater impact in the CA-70 than in the CA-286. I have both Coil CA70's and Locomotive 86B-2. The Coils are on another sonic planet of hugeness > and cannot be compared. The Locomotives are nice tube preamps though.
The negative feedback on the Coils is also an incredible EQ device.
Christopher, have you used the CA-286? From examples I've heard, there seems to be a big difference between the CA-70 vs. CA-286. No I haven't used the CA-286s, I wish I had a pair. But the CA-70s is a sonic monster with the additional bass stepped + or - switches plus the NF. It reaches down another octave more than any preamp I have ever used, without getting muddy. The Locomotive 86B-2 sounds small compared to it (but nice and tubey).
I'm very lucky to have three CA70s. Usually when tracking live I have a pair for Coles overheads, and the other one for bass. The CA70 was incredible on lead vocal yesterday > the NF was astonishing. Such a beautiful top end |
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Post by Ward on Sept 17, 2023 15:10:05 GMT -6
The CA70 blows my mind as well . . . If I were to start anywhere with Coil, it would be buying one channel like this: coilaudio.com/ca70s.html So, what is everyone doing about phantom power? The stand-alone Neumann Phantom Power Supply units used to be an industry standard, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth . . . what's a cost-effective solution today? |
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Post by christophert on Sept 17, 2023 15:21:17 GMT -6
The CA70 blows my mind as well . . . If I were to start anywhere with Coil, it would be buying one channel like this: coilaudio.com/ca70s.html So, what is everyone doing about phantom power? The stand-alone Neumann Phantom Power Supply units used to be an industry standard, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth . . . what's a cost-effective solution today? I bought three Coil 4 channel phantom boxes too. I also have some Radial 2 channel ones, and some Palmer 2 channels, and some old Neumann and AKG boxes.
I have a REDD console - so terrified if someone puts 48v into it by accident, and fries the transformers - so all my phantom power exists in the recording rooms, and I have taken 48v off my preamps by super glueing the switches into the off position. (easy to reverse) Old school.
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Post by Ward on Sept 17, 2023 15:23:54 GMT -6
The CA70 blows my mind as well . . . If I were to start anywhere with Coil, it would be buying one channel like this: coilaudio.com/ca70s.html So, what is everyone doing about phantom power? The stand-alone Neumann Phantom Power Supply units used to be an industry standard, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth . . . what's a cost-effective solution today? I bought two Coil 4 channel phantom boxes too. I also have some Radial 2 channel ones, and some Palmer 2 channels, and some old Neumann and AKG boxes.
I have a REDD console - so terrified if someone puts 48v into it by accident, and fries the transformers - so all my phantom power exists in the recording rooms, and I have taken 48v off my preamps by super glueing the switches into the off position. (easy to reverse) Old school.
totally feel you! Ok, which of these phantom power supplies is your favorite and which is the worst? What's the best value out there? Radial? |
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Post by christophert on Sept 17, 2023 15:27:26 GMT -6
I bought two Coil 4 channel phantom boxes too. I also have some Radial 2 channel ones, and some Palmer 2 channels, and some old Neumann and AKG boxes.
I have a REDD console - so terrified if someone puts 48v into it by accident, and fries the transformers - so all my phantom power exists in the recording rooms, and I have taken 48v off my preamps by super glueing the switches into the off position. (easy to reverse) Old school.
totally feel you! Ok, which of these phantom power supplies is your favorite and which is the worst? What's the best value out there? Radial? The Radials are good. The Coils have a special slow increase for the voltage which is apparently better. |
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Post by kelk on Sept 17, 2023 15:36:53 GMT -6
And I'm assuming you were comparing the CA-286 to the Locomotive, not the CA-70? As I mentioned in reply to thehightenor, from the examples I've watched/heard, the negative feedback circuit has quite a bit more impact in the CA-70 circuit than in the CA-286. Keep 'em coming if you have experience with both, folks! I'd love to hear as much as possible. I should also note that I have Eric's WT-72 pre, and I really really like it. It's a lovely pre.
Yes, I'm talking about a shootout between the 86B-2 and a pair of ca286s.
The neg feedback is indeed way more subtle than the ca70, less range, but useful nonetheless.
Choosing between the two, I ended up with a pair of ca70s and only one 286.
I have to second Ward.. If I were to start over everything, a single channel CA70 would be #1 on the list.
I could happily make a record with a ca70 and some dynamics.
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Post by Ward on Sept 17, 2023 15:37:41 GMT -6
totally feel you! Ok, which of these phantom power supplies is your favorite and which is the worst? What's the best value out there? Radial? The Radials are good. The Coils have a special slow increase for the voltage which is apparently better. There's somewhat of a price difference as the Coil is about 4x as much . . . but it's worth it? |
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Post by christophert on Sept 17, 2023 15:42:48 GMT -6
The Radials are good. The Coils have a special slow increase for the voltage which is apparently better. There's somewhat of a price difference as the Coil is about 4x as much . . . but it's worth it? Probably not - but this info from Coil convinced me: "DC blocking circuit keeps Phantom off the input transformer - safe for use with all vintage mic preamps" The Radials are good, and I hunted down some old Neumanns and AKG's - they go for peanuts, and had them checked by my tech before going into service.
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Post by plinker on Sept 17, 2023 18:57:58 GMT -6
P48v is so trivial to properly implement -- why not just include it??
Yes; I know some have really high standards for that, and I'm not knocking that, but a basic phantom supply can always be turned off for a fancier, inline option.
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Post by ab101 on Sept 17, 2023 19:20:14 GMT -6
Never tried the Coil. But my Locomotive 286a beat out my Mercury v72s. It is no slouch. It is luscious.
I put in tele ef806s tubes.
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Post by andersmv on Sept 17, 2023 20:27:14 GMT -6
The Radials are good. The Coils have a special slow increase for the voltage which is apparently better. There's somewhat of a price difference as the Coil is about 4x as much . . . but it's worth it? I got the 4 channel box from Coil, expensive but might as well at this point to “spare no expense”… I had a single channel Rolls phantom power supply for a while, like $30 used and never had any problems with it. I can highly recommend those if you don’t want to spend much. I’m planning on doing some tests with the Coil phantom power box and will compare it with the phantom power on my API console, I’ll let you know when I get around to that. Convenience wise, it’s nice to have the smaller Coil box to keep in the live room, lots of fun experiments to be had with things like Soyuz Launcher boxes. |
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 18, 2023 1:08:52 GMT -6
The CA70 blows my mind as well . . . If I were to start anywhere with Coil, it would be buying one channel like this: coilaudio.com/ca70s.html So, what is everyone doing about phantom power? The stand-alone Neumann Phantom Power Supply units used to be an industry standard, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth . . . what's a cost-effective solution today? I use a Radial Stage-Bug SB-48. It’s Radial, so it’s built like tank, 101% reliable and will no doubt last a lifetime. Only two channels, but that all I personally need. |
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Post by crillemannen on Sept 18, 2023 23:41:33 GMT -6
The CA70 blows my mind as well . . . If I were to start anywhere with Coil, it would be buying one channel like this: coilaudio.com/ca70s.html So, what is everyone doing about phantom power? The stand-alone Neumann Phantom Power Supply units used to be an industry standard, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth . . . what's a cost-effective solution today? Beware of the old Neumann phantom power supplies. I bought one from David Fehrer and I specifically asked him to check it so it didn't feed out the Phantomp since I wanted to use it with my V76. And .. it did! Very poor design, he said it didn't feel very Neumannesque. He fixed it of course but before the fix it was feeding voltage through the outputs which potentially could have killed my V76s trafo. |
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Post by christophert on Sept 19, 2023 1:04:17 GMT -6
The CA70 blows my mind as well . . . If I were to start anywhere with Coil, it would be buying one channel like this: coilaudio.com/ca70s.html So, what is everyone doing about phantom power? The stand-alone Neumann Phantom Power Supply units used to be an industry standard, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth . . . what's a cost-effective solution today? Beware of the old Neumann phantom power supplies. I bought one from David Fehrer and I specifically asked him to check it so it didn't feed out the Phantomp since I wanted to use it with my V76. And .. it did! Very poor design, he said it didn't feel very Neumannesque. He fixed it of course but before the fix it was feeding voltage through the outputs which potentially could have killed my V76s trafo. My tech did the same, modded a dual Neumann 48v PS to block voltage. |
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 19, 2023 1:12:43 GMT -6
I've had my Radial SB-48 on a test bench and if you wait for a month of Sundays you'll still never see anything other perfectly steady 48 volts with enough
current headroom to get the job done perfectly.
Personally, there are 1000 more important elements to worry about in the making of an album than the nature of the 48 volts feeding my LDC's.
It's phantom power - not a PSU for a Fairchild compressor!
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Post by enlav on Sept 20, 2023 5:48:20 GMT -6
totally feel you! Ok, which of these phantom power supplies is your favorite and which is the worst? What's the best value out there? Radial? The Radials are good. The Coils have a special slow increase for the voltage which is apparently better. Is this similar to the Locomotive Copperline's Slow-Start Phantom Power?
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Post by christophert on Sept 20, 2023 14:54:18 GMT -6
The Radials are good. The Coils have a special slow increase for the voltage which is apparently better. Is this similar to the Locomotive Copperline's Slow-Start Phantom Power?
I guess so - the slow ramp up it to protect preamps. The Locomotive info informs: "a gentle onset of phantom voltage (5 seconds), rather than a quick power-on, will prevent voltage transients at the mic preamp input."
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Post by Darren Boling on Sept 20, 2023 15:24:55 GMT -6
I have the 4ch Coil phantom box, it's especially friendly to my old 84. Another nice side benefit is powering up the 3-4 ch of phantom powered mics and being able to swap preamps without having to power them down every time.
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). And now I'm curious about the Coil 286 and how it compares to the Locomotive 86B-2 (or what used to be called the 286A). I understand they're not based on the same circuit, and I'm sure they're both great in their own way. But they're both EF86 tube-based pres, so I would imagine there might be some areas of similarity?
