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Post by Coil Audio on Sept 21, 2023 13:56:20 GMT -6
The CA70 blows my mind as well . . . If I were to start anywhere with Coil, it would be buying one channel like this: coilaudio.com/ca70s.html So, what is everyone doing about phantom power? The stand-alone Neumann Phantom Power Supply units used to be an industry standard, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth . . . what's a cost-effective solution today? Sorry to hijack the CA286 thread, but thought I’d chime in on the 48V. First off, thanks for all the kind words regarding the CA286 and CA70. We love our negative feedback too… Regarding the 48v supplies. We chose to keep this off our preamps because adding proper 48v would have been cost prohibitive to not only us, but the end user as well. That’s why we decided to create a separate unit, do a highly regulated and filtered real linear supply, and have it as an option for users who needed it. For every studio I’ve worked at or designed over the years, I’ve always kept phantom power in the live room as was initially intended by the designers of the phantom standard. Having 48v come all the way from the control room, through patch bays and long cable runs is a recipe for disaster unless in a highly controlled and well designed environment. Blown ribbons, magnetized dynamic mics, and ground/buzz issues galore. Also, having 48v come from from “stepped up” 15v (500 series) isn’t ideal either, and can’t always keep up with current demand depending on your 500 rack’s power supply. The current industry wide “48v Spec” is actually 11-52v, so some “phantom/48v” supplies only proved 15 or so volts. Our intention was not to create some revolutionary new 48v supply. It’s nothing fancy or gold plated, just a very well built linear regulated power supply made with great components, and designed with lots of “gas in the tank”. Having this much current in reserve keeps mics from crapping out when large low end (kick drums) or sharp hi end transients (think glockenspiel) come through the mic. The power supply can’t keep up, and the mic will crap out as it asks for more current due to the loud transients. Between the large current reserves, and the highly regulated voltage, it translates into way more headroom, and a stiffer response from the microphone. We’ve definitely had people respond that they didn’t realize how much actual headroom their microphones had. They had been padding stuff trying to deal with distortion, or thinking their mic couldn’t handle the SPL’s, when in reality, it was just crappy phantom. They also talked about the improvement in top end response and openness due to the way we configure our DC blocking caps. Ideally, you want to block the 48v from passing to the input of your preamplifier. This can damage transformer-less input sections, and magnetize and ruin some vintage transformers. A “shall remain nameless” company that racks vintage modules ruined 100’s if not thousands of vintage telefunken and neumann preamp input transformers with improperly implemented 48v with no blocking caps or transformers. We use a very special blocking cap path configuration that uses special hi end, and non inductive audio caps. These are directly in the signal path so you have to use good stuff here, and don’t want inductive stuff in the audio path creating weird ringy resonances.. As far as the ramping 48v, this is just to keep from slamming your mic with instant 48v, which isn’t ideal for the internals. It also keeps it from creating annoying pops when powered on. That’s all I got, and thanks again for all the kind words… JimV |
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Post by kelk on Sept 21, 2023 15:37:51 GMT -6
I love me some positive feedback about negative feedback.
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Post by plinker on Sept 21, 2023 23:44:48 GMT -6
I appreciate the response, Coil Audio. Here's the part I don't understand: "Regarding the 48v supplies. We chose to keep this off our preamps because adding proper 48v would have been cost prohibitive to not only us, but the end user as well." I can see how adding a 48v line from the PSU would create a slight amount of additional cost but, relative to the cost of the preamp, I don't see how it could be be "prohibitive". You've already got a really nice linear supply in the preamp -- that additional 48 volt rail just doesn't add up to much. The "blocking cap path configuration" sounds nice and probably adds a small cost... However, a completely separate unit, with a completely separate PSU (transformer, regulator, etc) and case -- now that adds up -- and is cost prohibitive to the user. I think you should just incorporate it into the single channel boxes and add a small fee. My $.02 |
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Post by Ward on Sept 22, 2023 6:24:46 GMT -6
The CA70 blows my mind as well . . . If I were to start anywhere with Coil, it would be buying one channel like this: coilaudio.com/ca70s.html So, what is everyone doing about phantom power? The stand-alone Neumann Phantom Power Supply units used to be an industry standard, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth . . . what's a cost-effective solution today? Sorry to hijack the CA286 thread, but thought I’d chime in on the 48V. First off, thanks for all the kind words regarding the CA286 and CA70. We love our negative feedback too… Regarding the 48v supplies. We chose to keep this off our preamps because adding proper 48v would have been cost prohibitive to not only us, but the end user as well. That’s why we decided to create a separate unit, do a highly regulated and filtered real linear supply, and have it as an option for users who needed it. For every studio I’ve worked at or designed over the years, I’ve always kept phantom power in the live room as was initially intended by the designers of the phantom standard. Having 48v come all the way from the control room, through patch bays and long cable runs is a recipe for disaster unless in a highly controlled and well designed environment. Blown ribbons, magnetized dynamic mics, and ground/buzz issues galore. Also, having 48v come from from “stepped up” 15v (500 series) isn’t ideal either, and can’t always keep up with current demand depending on your 500 rack’s power supply. The current industry wide “48v Spec” is actually 11-52v, so some “phantom/48v” supplies only proved 15 or so volts. Our intention was not to create some revolutionary new 48v supply. It’s nothing fancy or gold plated, just a very well built linear regulated power supply made with great components, and designed with lots of “gas in the tank”. Having this much current in reserve keeps mics from crapping out when large low end (kick drums) or sharp hi end transients (think glockenspiel) come through the mic. The power supply can’t keep up, and the mic will crap out as it asks for more current due to the loud transients. Between the large current reserves, and the highly regulated voltage, it translates into way more headroom, and a stiffer response from the microphone. We’ve definitely had people respond that they didn’t realize how much actual headroom their microphones had. They had been padding stuff trying to deal with distortion, or thinking their mic couldn’t handle the SPL’s, when in reality, it was just crappy phantom. They also talked about the improvement in top end response and openness due to the way we configure our DC blocking caps. Ideally, you want to block the 48v from passing to the input of your preamplifier. This can damage transformer-less input sections, and magnetize and ruin some vintage transformers. A “shall remain nameless” company that racks vintage modules ruined 100’s if not thousands of vintage telefunken and neumann preamp input transformers with improperly implemented 48v with no blocking caps or transformers. We use a very special blocking cap path configuration that uses special hi end, and non inductive audio caps. These are directly in the signal path so you have to use good stuff here, and don’t want inductive stuff in the audio path creating weird ringy resonances.. As far as the ramping 48v, this is just to keep from slamming your mic with instant 48v, which isn’t ideal for the internals. It also keeps it from creating annoying pops when powered on. That’s all I got, and thanks again for all the kind words… JimV Thanks Jim No hijacking there at all! And excellent and informative reply. Thank you very much! |
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Post by Coil Audio on Sept 24, 2023 10:33:00 GMT -6
I appreciate the response, Coil Audio . Here's the part I don't understand: "Regarding the 48v supplies. We chose to keep this off our preamps because adding proper 48v would have been cost prohibitive to not only us, but the end user as well." I can see how adding a 48v line from the PSU would create a slight amount of additional cost but, relative to the cost of the preamp, I don't see how it could be be "prohibitive". You've already got a really nice linear supply in the preamp -- that additional 48 volt rail just doesn't add up to much. The "blocking cap path configuration" sounds nice and probably adds a small cost... However, a completely separate unit, with a completely separate PSU (transformer, regulator, etc) and case -- now that adds up -- and is cost prohibitive to the user. I think you should just incorporate it into the single channel boxes and add a small fee. My $.02 Nah - we're good. thanks |
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Post by hadaja on Sept 24, 2023 14:28:30 GMT -6
I appreciate the response, Coil Audio . Here's the part I don't understand: "Regarding the 48v supplies. We chose to keep this off our preamps because adding proper 48v would have been cost prohibitive to not only us, but the end user as well." I can see how adding a 48v line from the PSU would create a slight amount of additional cost but, relative to the cost of the preamp, I don't see how it could be be "prohibitive". You've already got a really nice linear supply in the preamp -- that additional 48 volt rail just doesn't add up to much. The "blocking cap path configuration" sounds nice and probably adds a small cost... However, a completely separate unit, with a completely separate PSU (transformer, regulator, etc) and case -- now that adds up -- and is cost prohibitive to the user. I think you should just incorporate it into the single channel boxes and add a small fee. My $.02 I am with you here. i went with the locomotive 86-2b as it seemed a complete package over the Coil. i am only a small home studio not commercial so my needs are a little different to most. But having 48volt on a pre is a neccessity for me. |
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Post by ab101 on Sept 24, 2023 15:12:41 GMT -6
I appreciate the response, Coil Audio . Here's the part I don't understand: "Regarding the 48v supplies. We chose to keep this off our preamps because adding proper 48v would have been cost prohibitive to not only us, but the end user as well." I can see how adding a 48v line from the PSU would create a slight amount of additional cost but, relative to the cost of the preamp, I don't see how it could be be "prohibitive". You've already got a really nice linear supply in the preamp -- that additional 48 volt rail just doesn't add up to much. The "blocking cap path configuration" sounds nice and probably adds a small cost... However, a completely separate unit, with a completely separate PSU (transformer, regulator, etc) and case -- now that adds up -- and is cost prohibitive to the user. I think you should just incorporate it into the single channel boxes and add a small fee. My $.02 I am with you here. i went with the locomotive 86-2b as it seemed a complete package over the Coil. i am only a small home studio not commercial so my needs are a little different to most. But having 48volt on a pre is a neccessity for me. You will love the locomotive! |
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Post by bricejchandler on Sept 25, 2023 1:33:43 GMT -6
I'm in the minority but I don't find the external 48v to be a deal breaker. I guess if you're doing remote stuff and need an extremely compact solution sure but then you wouldn't be taking large tube preamps anyway.
I use my Schoeps mics a ton and they are very sensitive to proper 48v and more than once I've found them not performing 100% in some studios ( crapping out on overheads ), it's nice to have a high quality option to go with high quality mics.
To get back on topic @the other mark williams, I've used the Locomotive 286 in a couple sessions but not long enough to feel like I know them perfectly.
I will say it sounds very good.
Compared to the Coil 286s, it's faster, less low end but more highs, it sounds very focused. I hear kind of a high mid push that I think sounds great on distorted electric guitars ( I usually record rock and punk bands at the studio that has the Locomotive and I always use it on one of the guitar amps). It's definitely not a clean preamp and when pushed, there was this nice bite in the high end, but it never sounds harsh.
Surprisingly to me it sounded almost interchangeable with the BAE 1073s I had a the time, only it had a little extra glow, just a tiny bit brighter but they sounded very very close.
Have you checked out the ZEN Clipalator? It has samples of all theses great mic preamps and I find the samples to be 100% in line with my personal experience. It's partially thanks to that site that I ended up with the Coils because I could hear how they stacked up to preamps I already owned.
I will say that when my buddy and I compared my 286 to his locomotive, I liked my Coils better, he liked the Locomotive better, but then we have vastly different esthetics, I wouldn't be able to live without that compression that the Coils give me ( I don't want to say tapey but that's what it sounds like to me), I barely ever use tape plugins anymore, most of the time I don't need to use Soothe because just passing through the Coils gives you a similar result with less artifacts and I use way way less compression and reverb ( because I find the front to back depth to be exceptional ).
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kbb
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by kbb on Oct 6, 2023 22:09:43 GMT -6
The Coil has the variable “negative feedback” control, and you cannot underestimate how incredibly useful it is for dialling in the exact tone your looking for within that class of pre (the CA-70 being the same control but a different sound) I’m never going to buy another tube pre unless it has this NF control. No experience with the Locomotive, but I'll high five the comments re: CA-286 neg feedback with gusto! In my experience so far, it's not a subtle control...when you open it up, it really does that. The other thing that's tops about Coil is how many sounds you can pull from it using the Pad, Low EQ, and NF. I should give mine another tweaking run through so I can articulate better, but I still remember being pretty surprised and impressed by it a couple months ago when I got it. It's also the first tube pre I've seen that's as industrially built as some very early Hamptones that I got to use years ago. Not the kind of thing to drop on your foot. The pre would be fine, but you'd be on crutches. I'm living mostly out of my AEA R44 and a pair of Coles 4038s that I usually plug into AEA RPQs (or CAPI for the 4038s on drum overheads which I like a lot). I've tracked using the RPQ line out into the Coil for color and it definitely adds some richness. I've also put each of those ribbons through it for mono overhead as well and it adds density and controlled girth to the toms and snare that neither the CAPI, RPQ, nor a BAE 1073 have in my experience so far. Also great on guitar amps. The R44 and Coles plugged straight in might be a little soft for things like acou guitar and vocals - at least for what I'm working on, but oh so smooth. Oh, and for no fault of the Coil, but rather because of some changing circumstances in the home studio and the comments above, I did just post a CA-286s for sale in the Classifieds section. |
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 7, 2023 5:27:29 GMT -6
I appreciate the response, Coil Audio . Here's the part I don't understand: "Regarding the 48v supplies. We chose to keep this off our preamps because adding proper 48v would have been cost prohibitive to not only us, but the end user as well." I can see how adding a 48v line from the PSU would create a slight amount of additional cost but, relative to the cost of the preamp, I don't see how it could be be "prohibitive". You've already got a really nice linear supply in the preamp -- that additional 48 volt rail just doesn't add up to much. The "blocking cap path configuration" sounds nice and probably adds a small cost... However, a completely separate unit, with a completely separate PSU (transformer, regulator, etc) and case -- now that adds up -- and is cost prohibitive to the user. I think you should just incorporate it into the single channel boxes and add a small fee. My $.02 I am with you here. i went with the locomotive 86-2b as it seemed a complete package over the Coil. i am only a small home studio not commercial so my needs are a little different to most. But having 48volt on a pre is a neccessity for me. Using the Locomotive 86-2B makes total sense if you prefer the sound. But if someone prefers the Coil CA-70 or 286 (as I do) the 48v doesn't need to be an issue as I bought a Radial SB-48 for $150 and it's instant pluggable phantom power and it's Radial so it's 100% reliable and will last a lifetime. |
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