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Post by mcirish on Sept 5, 2023 15:38:15 GMT -6
What I'm using.
Hardy M1: Clean but not sterile. I know that's way too ambiguous. It's detailed and clean but not in a way that sounds boring. It sounds smoother than an API type preamp but not mushy like a Neve could get. If I had a whole rack of these, I'd be fine with that. It's my most used on vocals and acoustic instruments. If I could find some of the dual-servo preamps, I'd pick those up for the extra gain. The M1 is great for condensers and most dynamics, but not a good choice on ribbons.
Daking Micpre IV: Also clean but has a slight push to it. Maybe it's faster than the M1? Super amount of headroom and gain. I use it on piano and ribbon mics the most but it was great on drum overheads. The best drum preamp I've heard for the sound I wanted
Stam 1073MPA (early version): Trying to warm up to this. I've only used it on vocals and DI bass. Of the four projects I used it on, it really only shined on one project. If something is super dynamic (singers with horrible breath control) I wouldn't use it. It saturates way earlier than I would want. But on a good (controlled) singer or on bass, it works well and adds a bit of low mid body. I don't always want that, so it's not mu first choice. Then again, I'm always after clarity and I don't think a Neve excels at that. Note, mine is the early version that uses only two stages.
Warm 412: I also have a Warm 412 that I replaced the opamps in. I use it on kick and snare. No complaints. It's an API clone(ish) preamp. It's sort of snappy, so it's good on percussion. Did the opamps make a huge difference? It isn't a night and day difference. A bit more clarity and punch. I used the Capi CA-0252 opamps. I'd buy another and do the same mods.
Midas XL48: Fairly generic, sort of clean preamp. No real complaints at all. No real character either. Fan is a bit noisey so I dialed it's speed down with a resistor. I use it only on a drum kit; toms and overheads. I like the Daking and Warm better for these duties but those are usually being used elsewhere and I'm too lazy to repatch.
Presonus MP20: Mine has the Jensen transformers and different opamps. Surprisingly not bad, but never the first choice. A bit noisy, but not bad. I think the fet input stage might be the weak point. When I need more mic pres, I use it. Otherwise, it's sort of set as a live-stream preamp with OBS. I do use it as a DI quite often for bass. The 1M input impedance is just right.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2023 15:56:29 GMT -6
Neve is veiled and can fuzz up when you eq it. The cleaned up clones are less muddy and have various degrees of veil and plastic.
Honestly modern API gear just sounds band passed half the time and the high end is weird. If you don't have the ones with the output attenuation or something like a Red Cloud, you're fucked just going into a converter if you want to push them.
When you get beyond the internet cloner hype trains and the interface pres that are always clean but destroy detail and sound like they always have a pad in front of them like RME, you get a lot better stuff that doesn't kill your sound and sometimes does cool distortion pedal stuff when pushed.
Tascam sounds like they took the lofi Japanese opamps and made something that turns into a guitar pedal and clips huge.
Daking is awesome. It's clean to a guitar pedal and not veiled. I dig that.
Apogee pres are okay when not pushed. Then they can get noisy and bring up the background in a not great way. Soft Limit is cool though. It's not worth mentioning other interface pres.
Grace is like what a Neve 1073 should be given the online reputation. Huge expansive low end, polite mids, and it's not veiled or plastic when you clean it up. It remains present.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 5, 2023 16:16:53 GMT -6
You kind of lifted that out of context. I also said this; "I mean once you moved into high-end it's a subtle difference between brands and styles." I do think there is a difference, but a Golden Age Premier 73 preamp for 600$ is sounding just as good as a 2k Neve clone just different. Clean interface preamps are ok but a standalone preamp made with quality components does sound better. I'm not so sure (that I'm lifting out of context either) because simply put I've had different experiences where cheap (ish) clones weren't much better than the average interface IC. Also my point is, really, that the end result matters most & audio is a sum of its parts not just a component. The Shelford into a Stam 2A was one of the clearest and most hi-fi sounding things I've heard. Was it the I/O transformer based amp, the inductor EQ, the Stam?
No idea, I just know that I haven't changed my guitars, room, mic's, guitar amps or anything and no matter what I do I can not re-create anything near the tracking audio quality I could do with that chain. matt@IAA I did notice that you liked a post that says they aren't overtly different and I bought your 622 on the premise that it IS quite different like the Shelford. I doth hope seen as I've just bought one you believe your products make enough difference to warrant the price tag.. The Shelford certainly did. 
We'll see pretty soon anyway.
When it comes to cheap clone’s I think Paul Wolf touched on one of the biggest sonic limitations is cheap transformers lack Litz wire! They spec okay but without Litz windings they just sort of sound blah. |
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Post by Ward on Sept 5, 2023 16:18:18 GMT -6
Grace Preamp (model designations only refer to format, not electronic architecture)
Extremely low THD, IMD, noise, RFI etc....
Extremely wide bandwidth, high headroom, has little effect on dynamic and condenser (all variation thereof) microphones. Has a robust bottom end, very clean and slightly lifted high-mid to hairband representation.
Does not accentuate odd order harmonics.
In 'Ribbon Mode' impedance is increased to make the ribbon mic work harder and thus produce better tone... which benefits are not available to active ribbons as the engaging of the ribbon mode shuts down phantom power than active ribbon mics require.
Fantastic transient response. Ideal for maintaining the sound of the microphone. Claims are made that the Neumann V402 mic preamp is very similar.
In short, the Grace M101/201/801/501 and 103 strip is one of the best examples of a preamp that imparts little to no sound, distortion, interference or negative coloration on the signal making the preamp type ideal for acoustic instrument and voice recording.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 5, 2023 16:24:22 GMT -6
Grace Preamp (model designations only refer to format, not electronic architecture)Extremely low THD, IMD, noise, RFI etc.... Extremely wide bandwidth, head headroom, has little effect on dynamic and condenser (all variation thereof) microphones. Has a robust bottom end, very clean and slightly lifted high-mid to hairband representation. Does not accentuate odd order harmonics. In 'Ribbon Mode' impedance is increased to make the ribbon mic work harder and thus produce better tone... which benefits are not available to active ribbons as the engaging of the ribbon mode shuts down phantom power than active ribbon mics require. Fantastic transient response. Ideal for maintaining the sound of the microphone. Claims are made that the Neumann V402 mic preamp is very similar. In short, the Grace M101/201/801/501 and 103 strip is one of the best examples of a preamp that imparts little to no sound, distortion, interference or negative coloration on the signal making the preamp type ideal for acoustic instrument and voice recording. If we are going to talk Grace let’s not forget that old Taper favorite the Lunatech, that little portable battery powered pre is something very special. Of course for a little less $ the DAV stuff is clean with just a little touch of warmth, some say it just sounds like a record a Decca at that. |
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Post by nick8801 on Sept 5, 2023 16:37:56 GMT -6
Sold all of mine a couple years ago. I had 1073 styles, API styles, Electrodyne, Ampex tube stuff, Useful Arts tube stuff, even some DAV which I loved. Hmmm what else…Focusrite Blue’s…Empirical Labs Mike-E, Daking, ummm 610’s…I think that’s it!! Right now I’m just using Lynx pres built right into my interface. Less clutter and patching, and I tend to agree that if the source/mic/room are good, I really don’t care about pres all that much! I did pick up one of those dbx 286s channel strips when I want to track with compression/eq/gating. It does that job just fine. I will say tracking everything with the same pre can add a sound per say, but I can always color after the fact with some transformer boxes I have which are my new favorite toy to use. Anyways, that’s my thoughts!
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Post by chessparov on Sept 5, 2023 18:54:53 GMT -6
Any examples guys?
Thanks, Chris
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Post by nick8801 on Sept 5, 2023 19:54:18 GMT -6
Examples….
That was all tracked through Heritage1073’s Mixed through Neve 542’s. So very much Neve flavor.
That was all tracked through the Useful Arts SFP tube pre. I think it has a little more harmonics and less low mid buildup. This one too…
This one is old but it’s mostly Daking Pres. More forward mids maybe? I dunno, I was just getting my studio together when I recorded this.
And here’s a semi recent track I did with a friend of mine. This one is all Lynx pres. Drums are midi though. Much cleaner in my opinion.
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Post by spindrift on Sept 5, 2023 21:28:11 GMT -6
One thing to remember when we talk about the Sonics of preamps is that the Sonics can be effected by the impendance of the microphone. QFE. ⬆️ The magic is in a great pre pairing in a specific way with a great mic in front of a great source. THOSE are the times that give me goosebumps!  |
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 5, 2023 21:47:12 GMT -6
I like my Daking. Sytek too. I like the standard better than the BB ones. I like my ART more than my Neve. Or was it my Gap 1073?
Ok, seriously I do like the Daking and the standard Sytek. The more coloured stuff I’ve owned or used hasn’t really turned my crank. That may be because it hasn’t been quality versions of that stuff. I do have the ART thingy and it’s been a doorstop for decades. I don’t care what the purple site opinion is. I just found it mudville. The Gap was better. But not much.
At the end of the day, I play a Telecaster. I like the snap, the definition, the clarity. So maybe my pre preferences align with that?
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2023 22:32:30 GMT -6
Examples…. That was all tracked through Heritage1073’s Mixed through Neve 542’s. So very much Neve flavor. That was all tracked through the Useful Arts SFP tube pre. I think it has a little more harmonics and less low mid buildup. This one too… This one is old but it’s mostly Daking Pres. More forward mids maybe? I dunno, I was just getting my studio together when I recorded this. And here’s a semi recent track I did with a friend of mine. This one is all Lynx pres. Drums are midi though. Much cleaner in my opinion. Cool productions. Pieces of Me from the Daking has a much better snare than the papier Nagasaki and sounds more immediate.
I like sound of Pieces of Me and the fuzzed out Burn With You the best but both Edward Furlong tracks sound "done" even if Nagasaki is "well done"
The Lynx pres are just THAT chip pres and they're not helping create a depth effect or doing anything with the "body" resonance or proximity effect in that track. They might need more eq from the lack of transformers while not having the crappy voltage limitations of the PGA2500 chip pres in most interfaces.
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Post by wiz on Sept 6, 2023 1:21:46 GMT -6
Examples…. That was all tracked through Heritage1073’s Mixed through Neve 542’s. So very much Neve flavor. That was all tracked through the Useful Arts SFP tube pre. I think it has a little more harmonics and less low mid buildup. This one too… This one is old but it’s mostly Daking Pres. More forward mids maybe? I dunno, I was just getting my studio together when I recorded this. And here’s a semi recent track I did with a friend of mine. This one is all Lynx pres. Drums are midi though. Much cleaner in my opinion. These are really great.. great songs , arrangements , great muso's, killer engineer...really enjoyed. cheers Wiz |
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Post by niklas1073 on Sept 6, 2023 3:15:23 GMT -6
I have to admit that as long as we are working within the frames of clean headroom I feel there is not really that much difference at the end result which high end pre (pre only, not channel strip) is used. Slight tonal differences. But when gain pushed to the level where the chararacter starts to show the differences becomes the whole deal.
As example I was just recently tracking a few vocal tracks for a client that had to be super clean, as I am all into 1073 and it’s character, I decided to try my JDK r20 pre which I only use for my toms and is very clean and kind of boring and “neutral”. Then we did another session in the same series later and since I had my bae1073 setup already I decided in my laziness to use that one instead and take down the gain to all clean. Same mic, same postproduction…. When mixed and done I can not tell any difference what so ever. But all it takes is a few clicks up on red knob and boy does the 1073 come into life and do it’s magic.
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Post by enlav on Sept 6, 2023 6:03:15 GMT -6
Great examples, thanks for sharing! Could you divulge some details on the piano in the final track? |
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Post by nick8801 on Sept 6, 2023 7:13:55 GMT -6
Great examples, thanks for sharing! Could you divulge some details on the piano in the final track? Thanks for noticing.....That was an old Wurlitzer I got for free. Very honky tonky sounding. Needed to be tuned every few weeks! It was mic'd up with a pair of Beyerdynamic mc930's into the Dakings in my old living room. I would drape some packing blankets over my staircase to clamp down on the room noise. Wish I still had it, but such a pian to maintain! |
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 6, 2023 8:43:30 GMT -6
I have to admit that as long as we are working within the frames of clean headroom I feel there is not really that much difference at the end result which high end pre (pre only, not channel strip) is used. Slight tonal differences. But when gain pushed to the level where the chararacter starts to show the differences becomes the whole deal. As example I was just recently tracking a few vocal tracks for a client that had to be super clean, as I am all into 1073 and it’s character, I decided to try my JDK r20 pre which I only use for my toms and is very clean and kind of boring and “neutral”. Then we did another session in the same series later and since I had my bae1073 setup already I decided in my laziness to use that one instead and take down the gain to all clean. Same mic, same postproduction…. When mixed and done I can not tell any difference what so ever. But all it takes is a few clicks up on red knob and boy does the 1073 come into life and do it’s magic. That's it for me +1 I can (if I want) run my BAE 1073D to be virtually as clean as my Millennia or AEA but a few clicks on the Red Knob towards midnight and "boom" the BAE becomes a pre the Millennia and AEA only have in their fantasy R 'n' R dreams  |
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Post by robo on Sept 6, 2023 10:01:15 GMT -6
I have to admit that as long as we are working within the frames of clean headroom I feel there is not really that much difference at the end result which high end pre (pre only, not channel strip) is used. Slight tonal differences. But when gain pushed to the level where the chararacter starts to show the differences becomes the whole deal. As example I was just recently tracking a few vocal tracks for a client that had to be super clean, as I am all into 1073 and it’s character, I decided to try my JDK r20 pre which I only use for my toms and is very clean and kind of boring and “neutral”. Then we did another session in the same series later and since I had my bae1073 setup already I decided in my laziness to use that one instead and take down the gain to all clean. Same mic, same postproduction…. When mixed and done I can not tell any difference what so ever. But all it takes is a few clicks up on red knob and boy does the 1073 come into life and do it’s magic. I agree with this. While there are some great pairings of mics and preamps, IME the differences are in how they drive and saturate, or don’t. Especially in this digital age when soaking up some transients on the way in is so helpful. Also some pres have more forgiving sweet spots than others (Daking, Great River, Iron Age, Buzz/APA, ISA) while others are more prone to go over the edge if the source is too dynamic (1073 and clones), and some just give you clean signal until they get noisy or clip horribly (interface pres and all the fancier clean designs). |
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Post by theboris on Sept 8, 2023 19:53:54 GMT -6
Seventh Circle is running a sale, I'd be curious to hear what others are finding as great pairings with each pre topology, esp. C84, J99 and N72
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Post by rowmat on Sept 9, 2023 3:43:44 GMT -6
Seventh Circle is running a sale, I'd be curious to hear what others are finding as great pairings with each pre topology, esp. C84, J99 and N72 I have these, the original SCA format, not the 500 series. They are all good but the J99’s have been my goto pres especially for vocals and acoustic instruments. The N72 do the Neve thing as well as a Neve. The C84’s get the least use not because there’s anything wrong with them it’s just that they are basically invisible and don’t provide anything much other than clean gain. For anyone thinking a Coles 4038 may not be a great idea as a vocal mic when you have access to the ‘usual suspects’, just plug a 4038 into a J99 (Twin Servo) back off the mic to around 12”, crank up the gain and be amazed. Add some Pultec goodness and some EMT140 plate and you’ll end up with a huge, rich and smooth vocal that will make you cry. |
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Post by enlav on Sept 9, 2023 5:35:48 GMT -6
They are all good but the J99’s have been my goto pres especially for vocals and acoustic instruments. Are these the ones that sound similar to John Hardy M1's? Or am I simply mistakening the fact that you can order them with John Hardy opamps? |
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 9, 2023 6:14:48 GMT -6
Seventh Circle is running a sale, I'd be curious to hear what others are finding as great pairings with each pre topology, esp. C84, J99 and N72 I have these, the original SCA format, not the 500 series. They are all good but the J99’s have been my goto pres especially for vocals and acoustic instruments. The N72 do the Neve thing as well as a Neve. The C84’s get the least use not because there’s anything wrong with them it’s just that they are basically invisible and don’t provide anything much other than clean gain. For anyone thinking a Coles 4038 may not be a great idea as a vocal mic when you have access to the ‘usual suspects’, just plug a 4038 into a J99 (Twin Servo) back off the mic to around 12”, crank up the gain and be amazed. Add some Pultec goodness and some EMT140 plate and you’ll end up with a huge, rich and smooth vocal that will make you cry. The AEA ribbons with their pre’s are just like that - amazing for vocals when you add some gain and stand back a bit. Of course you need a “real” studio space that has a great room tone and is free of ambient extraneous noise! |
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Post by rowmat on Sept 9, 2023 6:16:16 GMT -6
They are all good but the J99’s have been my goto pres especially for vocals and acoustic instruments. Are these the ones that sound similar to John Hardy M1's? Or am I simply mistakening the fact that you can order them with John Hardy opamps? The J99 is based on the Jensen Twin Servo which uses two 990 type opamps which Hardy makes under his own name. The main difference between the J99 and the Jensen Twin Servo are the transformers. The J99 uses a Lundhal LL1538XL mic input transformer and a Cinemag output transformer (high nickel). The Lundal LL1538 is also used in the several Rupert Neve designed Focusrite preamps and the Cinemag has very similar specs to the Jensen version. When I built my J99’s I intended to use the Hardy 990 opamps but getting any was another thing altogether. In the end I ordered some Sonic Imagery 990 opamps and they have been excellent although I expect there’s not a huge difference between most properly designed 990 opamps especially in the case of the Twin Servo where two 990’s share the gain so are not worked as hard as a single opamp at higher gains. |
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Post by rowmat on Sept 9, 2023 6:30:36 GMT -6
I have these, the original SCA format, not the 500 series. They are all good but the J99’s have been my goto pres especially for vocals and acoustic instruments. The N72 do the Neve thing as well as a Neve. The C84’s get the least use not because there’s anything wrong with them it’s just that they are basically invisible and don’t provide anything much other than clean gain. For anyone thinking a Coles 4038 may not be a great idea as a vocal mic when you have access to the ‘usual suspects’, just plug a 4038 into a J99 (Twin Servo) back off the mic to around 12”, crank up the gain and be amazed. Add some Pultec goodness and some EMT140 plate and you’ll end up with a huge, rich and smooth vocal that will make you cry. The AEA ribbons with their pre’s are just like that - amazing for vocals when you add some gain and stand back a bit. Of course you need a “real” studio space that has a great room tone and is free of ambient extraneous noise! You mean like this? 😉 AEA ribbon/stand back/add gain/great room… |
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Post by Ward on Sept 9, 2023 7:21:14 GMT -6
Are these the ones that sound similar to John Hardy M1's? Or am I simply mistakening the fact that you can order them with John Hardy opamps? The J99 is based on the Jensen Twin Servo which uses two 990 type opamps which Hardy makes under his own name. The main difference between the J99 and the Jensen Twin Servo are the transformers. The J99 uses a Lundhal LL1538XL mic input transformer and a Cinemag output transformer (high nickel). The Lundal LL1538 is also used in the several Rupert Neve designed Focusrite preamps and the Cinemag has very similar specs to the Jensen version. When I built my J99’s I intended to use the Hardy 990 opamps but getting any was another thing altogether. In the end I ordered some Sonic Imagery 990 opamps and they have been excellent although I expect there’s not a huge difference between most properly designed 990 opamps especially in the case of the Twin Servo where two 990’s share the gain so are not worked as hard as a single opamp at higher gains. I love a flawless post filled with flawless answers. Well done. Thank you! |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 9, 2023 9:52:40 GMT -6
Pre-amps just like mics have different focuses and that's why it's great to have a range of each. Like having lot's of different sized hands and a drawer full of different sized gloves. You reach into the drawer and try to find the best match. Well "the best match" is what we're looking for. Pick one of your favorite mics and tell us what you think is your best match for it, please. I'd love to hear some opinions on that. Sincerely! The best match changes session type to session type. |
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